I've never seen anyone play Mesa

[RealPandemonium]

54 minutes ago, Judggernaught said:

You don't see many Mesa because while not being bad, other frames fill her roll better and bring more team utility.

A lot of other frames.

If its powers don't let you afk on auto-pilot, then it won't be as popular.  That doesn't mean we should be supporting auto pilot.  Mesa was popular before because of the autopilot.  People may play the frames that they personally like, but the most popular frames will always be the ones that trivialize gameplay the most.  DE should aim to make those frames less exploitable so that WF becomes about playing a game again instead of winning in the Arsenal menu and complaining that your [now meaningless] rewards need to come even faster than they already are.  

Edited March 31, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Judggernaught]

4 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

If its powers don't let you afk on auto-pilot, then it won't be as popular.  That doesn't mean we should be supporting auto pilot.  Mesa was popular before because of the autopilot.  People may play the frames that they personally like, but the most popular frames will always be the ones that trivialize gameplay the most.  DE should aim to make those frames less exploitable so that WF becomes about playing a game again instead of winning in the Arsenal menu and complaining that your [now meaningless] rewards need to come even faster than they already are.  

I don't think I ever said I'm pro auto-pilot, and believe we share the same point of view. I just doubt they are ever going to redesign the game/enemy scaling to make it skill based so I didn't bother getting into anything outside of the core reason why you don't see Mesa often.

[Machayna]

On 3/24/2016 at 2:20 PM, Azamagon said:

Hey man, thanks! :)

As for the other abilities, they are kind of easy to improve:

1. Ballistic Battery, once unleashed with a shot, could last for X (up to 12?) seconds or Y (up to 6) shots, whichever runs out first. Each shot depletes a percentage of the damagebonus (so the first shot is the strongest). I'd like if they provided punchthrough (but for explosive weapons, better radius, since punchthrough is mostly detrimental to them). Then the augment would be ok I guess? *shrugs*

2. Shooting Gallery, make it so "recasting" it midduration causes it to jump over to the nearest ally (allowing it to jump over to each ally only once. Once each alliy has had it on them, recasting it early would thus end the ability early instead). This would work solo too, causing it to end early upon recasting it, and thus triggering the Muzzle Flash (which honestly should also work on regular expiration btw). More control, more solo-useable augment, win-win I'd say!

3. Shatter Shield, boring but VERY strong. I'd honestly prefer it to be something more interactive (like an aura that MASSIVELY slows down enemy projectiles, and only moderately reduces ranged damage and lightly slows down nearby enemies, which requires her to move around and dodge, instead of allowing her to facetank, which is not very gunslinger-like. It would honestly also be a bit too strong as is if PM became a mobile ability.) Augment could then allow her to facetank (similar to now), upping its damagereducing defences and causing staggers.

4. PM, well, as I suggested :P

 

I agree. Some great ideas there.  Especially with the first ability and second.  For her second I could see it going a couple directions but ultimately it's always bothered me that I have a skill that increases my damage output that may or may not be on me because it's gone to someone else.  I can't count on that damage buff being there unless running solo.  As it sits I still really like playing her.  Lots of people shocked to see a Mesa in the wild.  She's far from weak.  Did a 60 minute T2 Survival a couple days ago and could have easily gone to 80 I'm thinking and I've also done a bunch of T3 and T4 with her as well post nerf.  For her second I could see it going a couple directions but ultimately it's always bothered me that I have a skill that increases my damage output that may or may not be on me because it's gone to someone else.  I can't count on that damage buff being there unless running solo. Another way you could run with it is to give the damage bonus as a group buff similar to rhino but if you recast while already active it jams all guns in range for X number of seconds.  Would give it a more reliable CC.

 

Peacemaker I agree with the people who have mentioned they need to give up the turret idea and move toward something more mobile.  That's just an opinion of course but if there's a kavat coming at you and peacemakers targeting decides it doesn't want to take it out you're toast.

[Foefaller]

What if you could override the autotargeting by aiming? That would let you go Gun kata style when you're just clearing trash mobs and fast-moving targets but also focus on the high-threat targets when they show up.

EDIT: I should clarify that by "aiming" I mean RMB/Left Trigger/L2 Iron sights aiming.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Foefaller

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, Judggernaught said:

I don't think I ever said I'm pro auto-pilot, and believe we share the same point of view. I just doubt they are ever going to redesign the game/enemy scaling to make it skill based so I didn't bother getting into anything outside of the core reason why you don't see Mesa often.

It's heartening that you share my viewpoint.  Too often when people say that other options "bring more to the team" what they actually mean is "there's an overpowered, easy alternative."  I don't support bringing everything up to that level, since then there would be no interesting gameplay left in Warframe.  We shouldn't be campaigning to make all frames ezmode just because things like Nova/Loki/Mirage/Trinity/etc exist.  Those frames were left as-is for the sake of casual players, but once they enter the balance discussion they become problematic, all-encompassing outliers that threaten to remove the last traces of engaging gameplay from Warframe.  

[(XBOX)DamagingMoth47]

I really want the 360 degree shooting back, Not for the damage or the auto-pilot, but for the Badass animations, The ones where she is standing with guns pointed in opposite directions or something like it, that just isn't possible when i have to aim it.

 

Totally up for making her mobile and removing the auto-aim, Just please find a way to add those cool animations that were there Pre-nerf.

 

(Please, Its why i ran Mesa so much, Although Nyx is my most used)

[Deejudanne]

On 22 mars 2016 at 7:55 PM, clemza said:

haven't seen any mesa since the rework either and i didn't even tried it since O:

"Nerf" 

[(PSN)acethefox]

It just hit me that they could have gone to the first form of peacemaker and it probably work better then what we have now

[silversilver]

My one true problem is that its still aimbot, we are just guiding the aimbot where to shoot...

Even then, it fires slow as S#&$. I wouldnt have a problem if it fired as soon as i laid the reticle on a target, but it doesnt. I understand it has a ramp up, but when you're standing there, circle around 1/4th of the orginal size and the firing is still piss slow, cant kill anything on a mid level mission without taking forever to gain some speed then whats the point of using it other than the badass factor? 

 

I understand the nerf was to stop the skill from being use 4 then afk, but why nerf the firing speed too..... 

Energy cost is way too high also. You mod for energy and the skill barely does damage, you try to throw some power strength in there and you end up with an empty bar in less than 10 seconds(from 300 with a basic flow.....)

[F-Minus]

12 hours ago, silversilver said:

My one true problem is that its still aimbot, we are just guiding the aimbot where to shoot...

Even then, it fires slow as S#&$. I wouldnt have a problem if it fired as soon as i laid the reticle on a target, but it doesnt. I understand it has a ramp up, but when you're standing there, circle around 1/4th of the orginal size and the firing is still piss slow, cant kill anything on a mid level mission without taking forever to gain some speed then whats the point of using it other than the badass factor? 

 

I understand the nerf was to stop the skill from being use 4 then afk, but why nerf the firing speed too..... 

Energy cost is way too high also. You mod for energy and the skill barely does damage, you try to throw some power strength in there and you end up with an empty bar in less than 10 seconds(from 300 with a basic flow.....)

How is the aimbot any different to majority of other ultimates/nukes in the game? Answer: It isn't, the only difference is that Mesa has to stand there and shoot making fancy moves, which have already been castrated by the nerf. I don't know why you would want to nerf it further, when half of the frames run around with "I press this and everything dies  instantly" abilities, also the power drain is still massive, comparing it to Ember (I press 4 and run around for 60 minutes damaging/killing stuff without running out of energy) for example. 

Peacemaker is fine as it is, there's no need to touching it and making it worse, They are adding secondary scaling and that's really all that is needed. There's at least two other abilities that need to be changed and shatter shield that could be buffed to Rhino/Nezhas level. Both shooting gallery and ballistic battery are kind of crap, and the whole, switching on players thing is in need of rethinking. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by F-Minus

[BlackCoMerc]

On 3/29/2016 at 0:37 PM, CrudShuzKong said:

no.

Every player who likes her can tell you that 2/4 of her abilities are actually really good. If you dont get the frame, dont call for a rework so it fits your playstyle. Mesa has her own playstyle and there is no reason to destroy that for all her fans. She needs tweaks, maybe a rework on 1 and 4, but nothing more.

You can say you dont like her, but saying she is bad is just plain wrong.

Yes, but unfortunately "her own playstyle" consists of spamming Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery over and over again, then standing still to aim bot enemies.

What exactly is actually, really FUN about that?

On 3/31/2016 at 8:12 PM, Nomen_Nescio said:

Ash is out there for you since mentioned it. Never used it for anything but low-level solo farm.

If she is 'shoot everything until it's dead' she should have some useful abilities for that, not regular guns that do the same as they normally do for any other warframe and not her 1 (forget about 4, was crap and now is crap). Hell, they don't even fire faster or reload faster, that would've been at least something.

Agreed. Took a Gunslinger frame and gave her two DEFENSIVE abilities. And one useless damage pump ability. Then rooted her to the ground for her Ult. 

What they should have done, was given her shields. Real shields. And maybe a little armor. THEN they could have focused on giving her abilities focused around shooting stuff. Would she have been as much of a support frame then? No. But she is a Gunslinger. She was never, thematically, supposed to be a support frame. The game has support frames. Not every frame needs abilities to support a team.

[Thebel]

On 4/1/2016 at 10:55 PM, RealPandemonium said:

It's heartening that you share my viewpoint.  Too often when people say that other options "bring more to the team" what they actually mean is "there's an overpowered, easy alternative."  I don't support bringing everything up to that level, since then there would be no interesting gameplay left in Warframe.  We shouldn't be campaigning to make all frames ezmode just because things like Nova/Loki/Mirage/Trinity/etc exist.  Those frames were left as-is for the sake of casual players, but once they enter the balance discussion they become problematic, all-encompassing outliers that threaten to remove the last traces of engaging gameplay from Warframe.  

Your idea of "Bring more to the team" in this case isn't very true. Every other frame currently adds more to a squad than a Mesa, she is the most selfish frame adding only a damage buff or laughable CC to one person on the entire team. Every other frame can at least support the squad equally.

She needs to bring more to the table, because currently Hydroid or even Limbo are better, slot fillers than her.

[Kharn-The-Betrayer]

On 22/3/2016 at 7:45 PM, Sabrewolfe said:

Shatter Shield only serves well in low-level missions.

95% damage reduction is nothing at high levels, you'll still get one-shotted.

 

Shooting gallery is also unreliable.

Wow, one shotted with 95% reduction buff? Which enemy? a lvl 400 corrupted crewman shotgun?

Also, it protect you from the ancient's hook

I think that she only need a permanent buff on her with shooting galery, a little AOE effect on her 1 on headshots when it's at 100% and at least, the secondary mods applied on PM

With this, she will be nice

[CrudShuzKong]

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

What exactly is actually, really FUN about that?

The part where you use guns instead of peacemaker. I'm not saying that mesa is a good frame, just that she is great for gunplay with her 2 and 3.I really enjoy how those 2 skills allow you to work with your guns, but I dont use Peacemaker and i rarely use BB.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, CrudShuzKong said:

The part where you use guns instead of peacemaker. I'm not saying that mesa is a good frame, just that she is great for gunplay with her 2 and 3.I really enjoy how those 2 skills allow you to work with your guns, but I dont use Peacemaker and i rarely use BB.

That WOULD BE fun. IF I didnt have to STOP using my guns every 30 seconds to recast the same idiotic artificial shield ability in order to just not die. At least Zephyr has a worthwhile shield below Tailwind. If you just dont feel like constantly recasting it - and listening to the truly irritating audio effects the whole time its active to boot - then you CAN survive mid and high level missions without it. 

Not so with Mesa. The ONLY way she can survive beyond mid level is to constantly recast that same ability over and over. Its just bad design. If she's HAS TO depend on a power to survive, go back to the drawing board. We have Armor, Shields AND Health. One of these three things should be adequate to the task of surviving. But no; not with Mesa. The only way she gets by is driving the person playing her nuts in the process.

[xmegarockx]

maybe one day very very far away we gona have a exalted mesa.

[Thebel]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That WOULD BE fun. IF I didnt have to STOP using my guns every 30 seconds to recast the same idiotic artificial shield ability in order to just not die. At least Zephyr has a worthwhile shield below Tailwind. If you just dont feel like constantly recasting it - and listening to the truly irritating audio effects the whole time its active to boot - then you CAN survive mid and high level missions without it. 

Not so with Mesa. The ONLY way she can survive beyond mid level is to constantly recast that same ability over and over. Its just bad design. If she's HAS TO depend on a power to survive, go back to the drawing board. We have Armor, Shields AND Health. One of these three things should be adequate to the task of surviving. But no; not with Mesa. The only way she gets by is driving the person playing her nuts in the process.

 

Pretty dramatic about casting a skill every 30 seconds, it's no different than other frames like Chroma with vex armor, Limbo with banish, Loki with invisibility, Mirage, etc.

Let's not forget shields are basically worthless for most frames past mid level and even though Zeph has extremely high HP, her armor is non existent so there isn't much of a buffer to it. That isn't to say Mesa's armor is much better but at least for her shields are pretty fantastic since it gets the 95% damage reduction.

Shatter shields is currently Mesa's best and most reliable power, I hope it never gets touched, recasting it is such a minor complaint compared to all the other glaring issues with her kit.

 

[CrudShuzKong]

8 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That WOULD BE fun. IF I didnt have to STOP using my guns every 30 seconds to recast the same idiotic artificial shield ability in order to just not die. At least Zephyr has a worthwhile shield below Tailwind. If you just dont feel like constantly recasting it - and listening to the truly irritating audio effects the whole time its active to boot - then you CAN survive mid and high level missions without it. 

Not so with Mesa. The ONLY way she can survive beyond mid level is to constantly recast that same ability over and over. Its just bad design. If she's HAS TO depend on a power to survive, go back to the drawing board. We have Armor, Shields AND Health. One of these three things should be adequate to the task of surviving. But no; not with Mesa. The only way she gets by is driving the person playing her nuts in the process.

Not to spoil your dramatic monologue, but as @Thebel said, duration management is a huge part of warframe right now, pretty much all frames that dont rely on energy management (draining powers, cc-spam) rely on it for balancing. To remove that aspect from warframe, the whole game would have to be rebalanced, or they would have to be reworked into drains, completely remove a whole class of abilities and thus their uniqueness. if you do not like recasting duration based abilities, then either look for a frame that doesnt have to do it or skip out on warframe completely until we gret a complete scaling rework.

Also I gotta disagree with Zephyr's Turbulence being a better skill than SS since Zephyr is one of my favorite frames as well I felt on muzltiple occasions how unreliable it is causing oneshot deaths without obvious reasons. SS is not as gimmicky and just boosts survivability, pretty much exactly what you need when playing on high levels solo.

[RealPandemonium]

20 hours ago, Thebel said:

Your idea of "Bring more to the team" in this case isn't very true. Every other frame currently adds more to a squad than a Mesa, she is the most selfish frame adding only a damage buff or laughable CC to one person on the entire team. Every other frame can at least support the squad equally.

She needs to bring more to the table, because currently Hydroid or even Limbo are better, slot fillers than her.

Since when is Shooting Gallery "laughable CC?"

Shooting Gallery's bounce mechanic is kind of wonky (although you can use a min duration max range build to repeatedly lock down the areas around your allies.)

You can also take the point with Shatter Shield to neutralize dangerous enemies like Bombards.  

Emergent gameplay can be just as good as overt support techniques, but it's often trampled in this age of permacc, infinite energy, and invulnerability gimmicks.

[Thebel]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Since when is Shooting Gallery "laughable CC?"

Shooting Gallery's bounce mechanic is kind of wonky (although you can use a min duration max range build to repeatedly lock down the areas around your allies.)

You can also take the point with Shatter Shield to neutralize dangerous enemies like Bombards.  

Emergent gameplay can be just as good as overt support techniques, but it's often trampled in this age of permacc, infinite energy, and invulnerability gimmicks.

I call it laughable because unless you build for it specifically it really is lackluster.

I'll call it the average "Mesa build" , it probably consists of at least 130% str for shatter shield and from there you have duration to keep it going longer with range usually being the throw away stat.

The problem I find is that with how Shooting Gallery works, in a lot of ways you could say it is the only CC in the game with an actual cooldown, in that the more duration you build, the longer the cooldown becomes. Radial blind doesn't really count since you'll always be able to cast it a second time before the effect ends.

Shooting Gallery is just mechanically bad or unwieldy, it just feels like it's trying to do too much with one power. Having a panic CC button that works with a 30 - 60 second cooldown just feels weird compared to basically any other frame.

And trust me I've tried using an min duration/ max range build with the augment. It's a pretty goof build when you can basically kill Shatter Shield and Peacemaker for it. It's fun for messing around with but kinda is iffy in use since the blind seems to over write the jamming and then with the low duration last less than a second.

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, Thebel said:

And trust me I've tried using an min duration/ max range build with the augment. It's a pretty goof build when you can basically kill Shatter Shield and Peacemaker for it. It's fun for messing around with but kinda is iffy in use since the blind seems to over write the jamming and then with the low duration last less than a second.

The augment just seems useless to me, honestly.  You can get lots of pointlessly short blinds, or you can get very few blinds that last much longer but not long enough to really justify the long duration.

[Thebel]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

The augment just seems useless to me, honestly.  You can get lots of pointlessly short blinds, or you can get very few blinds that last much longer but not long enough to really justify the long duration.

It's pretty worthless unless you wanna actually blind yourself since with a 4 man squad you have the flashes going off every second or so after casting.

I tried to run an excavation with it, didn't work at all.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

The augment just seems useless to me, honestly.  You can get lots of pointlessly short blinds, or you can get very few blinds that last much longer but not long enough to really justify the long duration.

What i would Like to Happen with the Augment is have it

1. Blind Enemies you Shoot
2. AoE Blind Around You/Hit enemy upon Headshot
3.  or All of the Above

Would Make It so Much Better than it's current state and Considering that shooting gallery pretty much gives you free headshots it would work great

[Thebel]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

What i would Like to Happen with the Augment is have it

1. Blind Enemies you Shoot
2. AoE Blind Around You/Hit enemy upon Headshot
3.  or All of the Above

Would Make It so Much Better than it's current state and Considering that shooting gallery pretty much gives you free headshots it would work great

I'd rather they scrap Shooting Gallery, go back to the drawing board and think hard about what they want the power to do and how to make it work in a reasonably reliable and straightforward fashion.

Unlike this current mess of a damage and cc that has a scaling duration on both the global and local effects that also jumps around like a kangaroo in a group. But in a solo situation doesn't jump around but because it doesn't jump around it loses the cc component.

So solo vs group is like asking buff vs cc.

[BlackCoMerc]

Current Mesa is a mess. And this stems from trying to combine a selfish, Gun-slinging damage frame with a team oriented support frame.

Pick one. Focus. The game has solid CC. In comparison to which, Mesa's own is comically bad. So justscrap it and focus on Gun slinging.