Why do nullifiers still exist?

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Ryunokage said:

1. I can agree with this affecting passive, non-channelled buffs, some effects though are just too powerful to remain unaffected, the ash/loki invisibility being one of them. Rather then remove buffs however, could it perhaps render these effects neutralized so long as the warframe is within the nullifer's field.

2. This I can agree with, allow it to let bullets and fast projectiles through, while turning slower projectiles, like launchers aside. As an added effect I would like to suggest that the field apply a flat damage mitigation effect to incoming fire, reducing the damage of each projectile that crosses its boundaries. Players with assault weapons can't just blindly hose down the bubble, while snipers and archers would want to line up that headshot to make sure the nullifier/enemy dies in the first hit.

4. This needs to stay, though for added danger I'd like to see abilities cast at the field, or abilities cast within the field in its area of effect suffer some manner of feedback. Perhaps either damaging careless players, depleting their power reserves or buffing enemies for a period of time. For example, excalibur prime recieving 100hp of damage for every enemy struck by EB wave, but killing said enemy, or the valkyr beginning to suffer accumulated damage as a DoT when it enters the nullifier's field, that only ends once the player either kills the nullifier or exits the field. This could also make power use a tactical decision every time and drive players to make trade offs between benefits costs of power use in each situation.

1. I think stealth in general needs to be addressed on it's own. It's far overdue. I think if enemies have a well designed stealth AI, going inside a bubble invisible would still be very risky, esp after you shoot your weapon or run directly to an enemy from the front. The whole Hushed Invisibility and near invulnerability effect that stealth has is just awful. I play Loki a lot and it's not fun, it reminds me of running through an old shooter with NoClip on, finishing the map and going "Too easy Bro" If anything Naramon Shadow Step should have shown the general community just how OP and underdeveloped stealth is.

2. The idea of a flat mitigation seems interesting (Not % based) but a scaling number like say a lvl 30 mitigates 50 damage per shot while a lvl 100 mitigated 500 per shot. The only problem with that though is in the Void you already have Ancient Healers doing a very similar role, You already need to kill any ancient healers before you can kill the Nullifier and that's working with body blocking and the visual distortion. At a higher level that might prove to be too much even for knowledgeable players, esp if you somehow got two. I like the idea of reducing spray and pray tactics though it's only a small step from reducing the value of high RoF weapons in general. % base mitigation would also hinder snipers/bows, I dunno,

4. The first problem I see with reflective or negative effects impacted by assaulting the bubble with abilities would be player trolling. Even not on purpose it's kinda hard to get players to tactically work together. I think their mere presence in the design should present plenty of challenge and reward any player who's got a good aim.

 

38 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

     I've read most of your comments, which make absolutely no sense to me. You complain about the game being to easy, and then you contradict yourself because you feel Nullifiers are too hard. Make up your mind, which is it? Is the game to easy or do certain mobs make it to difficult for you. Your comments come off as a person who's upset because he can't use his Warframe's ability to deal with a specific mob. Guess what? That's what they were designed to do..

Are you trolling or something?

I've never said Nullifiers present any challenge at all, the opposite in fact. They're crappy at their designed job and they only serve to limit a player's weapon selection when dealing with them. Nullifiers don't stop me from doing anything in terms of abilities, they only stop me from picking a low fire rate weapon.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Xzorn

[Ryunokage]

1 hour ago, bbeeaann said:

     I've read most of your comments, which make absolutely no sense to me. You complain about the game being to easy, and then you contradict yourself because you feel Nullifiers are too hard. Make up your mind, which is it? Is the game to easy or do certain mobs make it to difficult for you. Your comments come off as a person who's upset because he can't use his Warframe's ability to deal with a specific mob. Guess what? That's what they were designed to do..

I can't say I've reached the same conclusions as you bbeeaann. I believe what Xzorn is saying, is that nullifiers unfairly penalize skilled players, who favour precision, slow firing weapons, while effectively giving providing a free pass to idiots who simply spray with their rapid fire weapons. 

On top of that, the rest of the game does not reward skill. Players can achieve a higher "pay-off" by relying on what are essentially idiot-proof/idiot-friendly/idiot-pandering abilities like WoF, EB and hysteria, rather then more carefully thought out approaches like the banshee, inaros or any other frame.

Otherwise, to add my own 2 cents to the matter, i feel that, while these changes were made to make warframe more accessible to a wider audience and thus makes the game healthier for DE's income stream, there hasn't been enough done to let more competent members of the player base feel sufficiently rewarded during their play experience. There are no moments of tension when we're doing something really difficult, that can't be done through some easy means, knowing that something really really cool awaited the victor.

[Ryunokage]

48 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

2. The idea of a flat mitigation seems interesting (Not % based) but a scaling number like say a lvl 30 mitigates 50 damage per shot while a lvl 100 mitigated 500 per shot. The only problem with that though is in the Void you already have Ancient Healers doing a very similar role, You already need to kill any ancient healers before you can kill the Nullifier and that's working with body blocking and the visual distortion. At a higher level that might prove to be too much even for knowledgeable players, esp if you somehow got two. I like the idea of reducing spray and pray tactics though it's only a small step from reducing the value of high RoF weapons in general. % base mitigation would also hinder snipers/bows, I dunno,

4. The first problem I see with reflective or negative effects impacted by assaulting the bubble with abilities would be player trolling. Even not on purpose it's kinda hard to get players to tactically work together. I think their mere presence in the design should present plenty of challenge and reward any player who's got a good aim.

I can certainly see where you're coming from Xzorn, I can't really imagine any other way to reward players for being good though. Perhaps making it so that shooting the nullifier through his field, causes the field to implode and kill enemies within, perhaps with double loot/experience/credit rewards as well? That way the less competent are still free to spray fire indiscriminately, but skilled players get a good pay off for taking that difficult shot.

Otherwise, with regards to the negative effects, trolling is certainly something that we can't underestimate. Maybe the negative effects should be inflicted on the casting frame only? That removes the danger of trolling to a reasonable degree.

[Mattoropael]

On 3/25/2016 at 1:17 AM, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

you see... corpus comba is a very nice replacement for these nullifiers, sure they work just like them, but they aren't blocking bullets, so why are nullies still exist?

 

The Irony: Comba are considered higher-tier units than nullifiers, and yet they are far less potent than plain ol' broken-OP Nullifiers in practice. They have tougher bodies, sure, but they don't have a massive damage-capped bubble shield that blocks any and all projectiles in a massive radius, disallows all ability uses, dispelling every single one of them (Comba are split into ability types) and being completely immune to any and all ability.

The disruptor drones from Nightmare LoR and even Isolator Bursas feel far less frustrating to fight against than Nullifier Crewmen, and that's really saying something.

[Ivan_Rid]

From Devstream 72 overview

Quote

Syndicate Weapon Augments Mods
• Steel Meridian Miter: Has the ability to pop Nullifier bubbles instantly

Rejoice

[akira_him]

11 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

From Devstream 72 overview

Rejoice

lol more band-aid augments

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

From Devstream 72 overview

Rejoice

Those were unconfirmed concepts from my understanding.

No one would use that augment either.

[GrimAtrament]

how to deal with nullify for those who cant figure it out already 

1. bring a fast firing side arm if your using a sniper

2. stab him

[akira_him]

41 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

how to deal with nullify for those who cant figure it out already 

1. bring a fast firing side arm if your using a sniper

2. stab him

thanks for demonstrating how nullifier limits weapon choose, again

if I end up need to bring an automatic pistol to a mission, why would I bring sniper/launcher then, nullifier is supposed to be a prioritized target, which snipers are supposed to deal with. Nope, no snipers

and you are testing it wrong, now try melee him with his bubble covering 2 other nullifiers, one of them being cryo eximus, 3 bombards 4 gunners and bunch of mobs under 3 bubbles, that's the typical situation in defense, MD, interception, excavation and survival we are discussing for the whole time, basically it's everything except spy and exterminate. I would only melee it when shadowstep is on, which we all know it breaks the game with just 2 mods

[GrimAtrament]

15 minutes ago, akira_him said:

thanks for demonstrating how nullifier limits weapon choose, again

if I end up need to bring an automatic pistol to a mission, why would I bring sniper/launcher then, nullifier is supposed to be a prioritized target, which snipers are supposed to deal with. Nope, no snipers

and you are testing it wrong, now try melee him with his bubble covering 2 other nullifiers, one of them being cryo eximus, 3 bombards 4 gunners and bunch of mobs under 3 bubbles, that's the typical situation in defense, MD, interception, excavation and survival we are discussing for the whole time, basically it's everything except spy and exterminate. I would only melee it when shadowstep is on, which we all know it breaks the game with just 2 mods

umm you have 2 gun slots you can use the sniper and an automatic pistol unless your a cripple who cant switch weapons

but clearly your dense as hell and cant adapt at all  sure i can do that to but sadly even if i do post a pic im betting your still going to make excuses to cover up the fact that you are unable to figure out how to use 2 different weapons in a game

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[akira_him]

Just now, hazerddex said:

umm you have 2 gun slots you can use the sniper and an automatic pistol unless your a cripple who cant switch weapons

the point is not switching weapon or not, nullifier makes a whole class of weapon meaningless to bring, I could just bring a rifle and I don't need to risk myself to switch weapon at all

weapon required skill should be rewarded, no, nullifier rewards weapons that doesn't need skill and punishes weapon that needs skill

[GrimAtrament]

2 minutes ago, akira_him said:

the point is not switching weapon or not, nullifier makes a whole class of weapon meaningless to bring, I could just bring a rifle and I don't need to risk myself to switch weapon at all

weapon required skill should be rewarded, no, nullifier rewards weapons that doesn't need skill and punishes weapon that needs skill

the game rewards a players skill at adapting to situations not using 1 weapon to sledge hammer your way through not every warframe or weapon is stuible for every job thats what makes this game good and better than games like cod 

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[akira_him]

7 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

the game rewards a players skill at adapting to situations not using 1 weapon to sledge hammer your way through

the best way to adapt it is to just use primary rifle instead and no other weapons, seems legit, you don't need skill to adapt it, just 2 mouse clicks then here you go

snipers and single shot weapons weren't sledge hammers in the first place, automatics was always , and still the sledgehammer

Edited April 2, 2016 by akira_him

[akira_him]

9 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

every warframe or weapon is stuible for every job thats what makes this game good and better than games like cod 

you do realise automatics are suitable for every job don't you?

[GrimAtrament]

Just now, akira_him said:

8 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

the game rewards a players skill at adapting to situations not using 1 weapon to sledge hammer your way through

the best way to adapt it is to just use primary rifle instead and no other weapons, seems legit, you don't need skill to adapt it, just 2 mouse clicks then here you go

what no its not the best way to adapt that called sledge hammering and when did i say anything about primary i said you should be able to use multiple weapons what YOUR saying is that you want to just us 1 weapon the entire game and not switch to secondary when you need to pop a nullify.

[GrimAtrament]

1 minute ago, akira_him said:

you do realise automatics are suitable for every job don't you?

ya id love to see  a panthera, karak or dera take down a level 150 heavy gunner 

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[akira_him]

Just now, hazerddex said:

what no its not the best way to adapt that called sledge hammering and when did i say anything about primary i said you should be able to use multiple weapons what YOUR saying is that you want to just us 1 weapon the entire game and not switch to secondary when you need to pop a nullify.

changing weapons is unnecessary if I am already bring a automatic pistols because it already does everything for me

Just now, hazerddex said:

ya id love to see  a panthera or karak take down a level 150 heavy gunner 

panthera, is a semi auto weapon with melee alt fire, it is not an automatic gun, it a freaking chainsaw

karak is a now lower tier rifle that was released when official level 100 contents was not a thing, it is definitely outdated. and when are comparing it with vulkar, which is a lower tier sniper, karak does better in every way than vulkar in the now lower tier content (around level 60s) that they both are designed for

 

[GrimAtrament]

16 minutes ago, akira_him said:

changing weapons is unnecessary if I am already bring a automatic pistols because it already does everything for me

panthera, is a semi auto weapon with melee alt fire, it is not an automatic gun, it a freaking chainsaw

karak is a now lower tier rifle that was released when official level 100 contents was not a thing, it is definitely outdated. and when are comparing it with vulkar, which is a lower tier sniper, karak does better in every way than vulkar in the now lower tier content (around level 60s) that they both are designed for

 

and then your dex fieris runs out of ammo also rapid fire secodnary don't have the same damage power as primary snipers are for targets like heavy gunners and ancients the ones that are way to tanky for mechine guns to kill fast enough  but maybe your not at that level yet so you never experience any of this 

also i guess thats why i out damage all those soma prime users with an ack and brunt or a vaykor hek because automatic mechine guns  totaly do everythings job better

 

also if you want to use a sniper after you break a nilfiy field wth a rapid fire pistol then nothings stopping you from switching back to your sniper rifle you argument is because i have an automatic pistol i have to use it all the time only one stopping you from switching back to your sniper rilfe is YOU no one else 

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[NezuHimeSama]

Nullifiers were an act of pure malice. They will be removed when DE's rage subsides.

[GrimAtrament]

also if they did remove nulifiers arctic eximus would become more common and nulifiers would be replaced with corrupted bursa and combas in the void  (i would not mind having more bursa)

but could you imagine the fire on the threads from you guys when they replace them with bursa 

so if you want to get rid of the simple to deal with nulifiers then lets replace them with the hard to kill bursa :)

[akira_him]

5 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

and then your dex fieris runs out of ammo also rapid fire secodnary don't have the same damage power as primary snipers are for targets like heavy gunners and ancients the ones that are way to tanky for mechine guns to kill fast enough  but maybe your not at that level yet so you never experience any of this 

also i guess thats why i out damage all those soma prime users with an ack and brunt or a vaykor hek because automatic mechine guns  totaly do everythings job better

strange, my sybaris did well in sorties, although it is a burst rifle. anyway, the point is, the current most effective way to use a sniper is not to use it at all, automatic can achieve a slightly weaker result with way less risk and difficulty. 

and you will notice I never complained about shotguns need to get in the bubble to kill groups of enemy in side, because it is what they is supposed to do and they excels it.

[GrimAtrament]

2 minutes ago, akira_him said:

strange, my sybaris did well in sorties, although it is a burst rifle. anyway, the point is, the current most effective way to use a sniper is not to use it at all, automatic can achieve a slightly weaker result with way less risk and difficulty. 

and you will notice I never complained about shotguns need to get in the bubble to kill groups of enemy in side, because it is what they is supposed to do and they excels it.

 

then its not nilifiers that you have the problem with its that sniper rifles still need a fix that i can agress with but acussing every other gun in this game of not taking skill is pure stupidity grinlock is a SINGLE FIRE RIFLE that does the most damage when aimming at heads 

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[Xzorn]

38 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

the game rewards a players skill at adapting to situations not using 1 weapon to sledge hammer your way through not every warframe or weapon is stuible for every job thats what makes this game good and better than games like cod 

Tell this to Exalted Blade.

I think you're mistaken adaptation with conformity. Basic adaptive tactics for this game include using Line of Sight, Target Priority, Accuracy tweaks and damage types. Not completely eliminating a large category of weapons. Esp the category that requires more focus and skill, these weapons should be the most rewarding of all others.

-

I'm a little disturbed you'd go through the effort of posting a cheeky pic on how you kill Nullifiers ( which anyone already knows ) and not try to understand the situation they impose.

And I don't enjoy this but...

Your Nova's shield and/or HP levels as well as Nova/Banshee Energy max kinda show where you're play level is at, Nova being a frame that really doesn't have better mods to slot over Redirection/Vitality though Banshee can make use of a single slot Quick Thinking or go without as her slots are more valuable. While this can be left to debate as levels Vs eHP = meaningless eventually; The biggest clue is your Sentinel's HP/Shields. Sentinels being something that all veteran players end up maxing, at the very least because there's nothing else to do.

You kinda loose credibility at this point, since you likely only play at a forgiving level range where going into melee is an option and taking the time to bring down a bubble with a semi-auto pistol doesn't get you killed.

[GrimAtrament]

17 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Tell this to Exalted Blade.

I think you're mistaken adaptation with conformity. Basic adaptive tactics for this game include using Line of Sight, Target Priority, Accuracy tweaks and damage types. Not completely eliminating a large category of weapons. Esp the category that requires more focus and skill, these weapons should be the most rewarding of all others.

-

I'm a little disturbed you'd go through the effort of posting a cheeky pic on how you kill Nullifiers ( which anyone already knows ) and not try to understand the situation they impose.

And I don't enjoy this but...

Your Nova's shield and/or HP levels as well as Nova/Banshee Energy max kinda show where you're play level is at, Nova being a frame that really doesn't have better mods to slot over Redirection/Vitality though Banshee can make use of a single slot Quick Thinking or go without as her slots are more valuable. While this can be left to debate as levels Vs eHP = meaningless eventually; The biggest clue is your Sentinel's HP/Shields. Sentinels being something that all veteran players end up maxing, at the very least because there's nothing else to do.

You kinda loose credibility at this point, since you likely only play at a forgiving level range where going into melee is an option and taking the time to bring down a bubble with a semi-auto pistol doesn't get you killed.

thats because i dont main them

sortie

farmming for saryn prime chassis

these are older ones ill go do a t4 survival if your going to keep insulting my playstyle i dont relay on sentinals so i dont have that many maxed mods for them

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

thats because i dont main them

sortie

farmming for saryn prime chassis

these are older ones ill go do a t4 survival if your going to keep insulting my playstyle i dont relay on sentinals so i dont have that many maxed mods for them

 

What am I looking at here? You really like Chroma? Hek? I don't get it.