A not-so-simple change to disincentivize Draco

[KaeseSchnitte]

This suggestion is not about whether or not leveling is tedious. I've made this suggestion under the assumption that DE wont change the way formas work. And I think that under these circumstances my suggestion will help to leviate the problem of just camping one mission due to the amount of XP it grants. Whether you should have to farm as much XP as you need to do now is not up for debate in this thread.

Edited April 5, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[Tzolkat]

It's a neat idea, though it might prove hazardous to new players who need a logical progression of difficulty as they progress through the starmap.

A tweak that could fix that potential issue is move the 'loot cave' concept into something that can pop up for players who already unlocked a node, offering a tougher fight for a greater reward than what can be found on any other node. It should be at least similar in spirit to what you suggest, though not exactly the same. Honestly, I think that might be sort of what DE is up to with Starmap 3.0, but we will have to wait and see.

[Fifield]

49 minutes ago, Tzolkat said:

It's a neat idea, though it might prove hazardous to new players who need a logical progression of difficulty as they progress through the starmap.

I didn't think about this but if anything I suspect the first few planets will get easier due to being played by newbies.

[KaeseSchnitte]

16 hours ago, Tzolkat said:

It's a neat idea, though it might prove hazardous to new players who need a logical progression of difficulty as they progress through the starmap.

That is a good question. I added it in the OP. The easiest way to fix this on my opinion would be to have adjustable multiplier caps. Early missions would then only have a x1.25 multiplier at best, while other missions could have up to a x3 multiplier.

Edited April 6, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

On 4/2/2016 at 0:40 PM, akira_him said:

we need no shifting meta, we need no meta at all, make everything equally good

There is always something that will be "better" due to how maps are laid out and how enemies are forced to spawn on those maps.

You make all that the same and it ends up being one hell of a boring game.

 

It irritates me how people want EVERYTHING to be equally good but fail to realize that DE will make everything suck equally if they really want to do that.

It does not benefit them to make leveling or prime part acquisition tolerable, it's how they make money.

Why should they allow us to level up and get prime parts at a reasonable speed? It doesn't get them paid.

The only reason why Draco isn't gone (Not that they haven't tried before) at this point is because of enormous player hate when they do such things and that hurts their wallets. 

 

And before moderators go off on me for "devhate" I counter that this is basic economics and you would need to be extremely and willfully ignorant not to see it.

 

 

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, P0TAT0CANN0N said:

It does not benefit them to make leveling or prime part acquisition tolerable, it's how they make money.

How do they make money from levelling?

1 minute ago, P0TAT0CANN0N said:

Why should they allow us to level up and get prime parts at a reasonable speed? It doesn't get them paid.

They already do the former.  And, if I'm not mistaken, nobody mentioned prime parts.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

Just now, Fifield said:

How do they make money from levelling?

They already do the former.  And, if I'm not mistaken, nobody mentioned prime parts.

Boosters that's how. They are included *HINT HINT* in prime access packs. 

I was using prime parts as an example of how DE makes money.

 

Name 10 areas on the solar map that are as good as Draco for leveling and I can bet that after they nerf Draco then they will nerf each and every one of those.

[(PSN)horridhal]

Your suggestion wouldn't just affect Draco.  As such it isn't conducive to "solving the Draco problem."

Instead it would eliminate a vast number of nodes I run that don't happen to be Draco from contention since they are commonly run nodes.

If you want to solve the "Draco problem" as you view it, it shouldn't involve messing up other nodes people commonly farm.

[Raniu]

24 minutes ago, P0TAT0CANN0N said:

Name 10 areas on the solar map that are as good as Draco for leveling and I can bet that after they nerf Draco then they will nerf each and every one of those.

You missed the point. It's not only about nerfing Draco, it's about making different nodes as good as Draco and introducing some kind of balance for how players are rewarded for playing different nodes.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Your suggestion wouldn't just affect Draco.  As such it isn't conducive to "solving the Draco problem."

Instead it would eliminate a vast number of nodes I run that don't happen to be Draco from contention since they are commonly run nodes.

And buff a vast number of other nodes...

 

You guys should read this:

It's not that there wouldn't be a Draco, but that the best node would be different from day to day - even hour to hour. And creating that kind of variability in an otherwise static star chart (alerts and invasions notwithstanding) is, to me at least, an exciting concept that wouldn't require a Herculean effort to code, compared to other 'solutions' to the 'Draco problem'.

I couldn't agree more.

[(PSN)horridhal]

7 minutes ago, Raniu said:

You missed the point. It's not only about nerfing Draco, it's about making different nodes as good as Draco and introducing some kind of balance for how players are rewarded for playing different nodes.

And buff a vast number of other nodes...

No, I know what he wants.  That said, the nodes I play are all the same mission type and, generally, popular nodes.  I would be penalized for playing those nodes because, even with the proposed changes, they would still be popular nodes for farming.  Players should not be penalized for playing content they enjoy, regardless of whether you enjoy that content or not.  Period.

Those nodes can be buffed without needing to gimp the other nodes.  This suggestion, as an idea, serves only to penalize players.

[Fifield]

Actually, @(PS4)horridhal has a point that I missed before.

Let's imagine that a planet only has 3 nodes. Call them Draco, X & Y.  Draco provides 100% XP, X provides 50% and Y provides 20%. Enough people do Draco that it falls to 98%.  X then provides 51% and Y provides 21%.  People keep doing Draco until it falls to 57% at which point X and Y have risen to 57%.

So if XP is spread out across planets, every node will tend towards the average XP.  In other words, every node will become equally good for farming -- but at a much worse level than Draco. 

[If XP is spread out across the solar system, every node will tend towards the average of the solar system (actually the 300/33% boundaries).]

I still think it's by far the best idea as it's the only solution that will provide 10+ equally good places for farming -- but overall XP levels will have to be buffed to compensate.

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Fifield

[KaeseSchnitte]

7 hours ago, Fifield said:

Actually, @(PS4)horridhal has a point that I missed before.

Let's imagine that a planet only has 3 nodes. Call them Draco, X & Y.  Draco provides 100% XP, X provides 50% and Y provides 20%. Enough people do Draco that it falls to 98%.  X then provides 51% and Y provides 21%.  People keep doing Draco until it falls to 57% at which point X and Y have risen to 57%.

So if XP is spread out across planets, every node will tend towards the average XP.  In other words, every node will become equally good for farming -- but at a much worse level than Draco. 

[If XP is spread out across the solar system, every node will tend towards the average of the solar system (actually the 300/33% boundaries).]

I still think it's by far the best idea as it's the only solution that will provide 10+ equally good places for farming -- but overall XP levels will have to be buffed to compensate.

 

While I don't think that this would happen, it still is a possible outcome.

First of all, we have to consider that Draco is an outlier when it comes to XP rewards and that DE wants to remove those outliers. My suggestion would fix all their balancing concerns, since the players would balance the game just by playing most efficiently.

But if you want a more interesting approach, there are numerous tweaks to my suggestion that would counteract unified mission rewards.

For starters, you could make the multiplier sluggish, reacting only slowly to extensive farming. The multiplier would "overshoot" the perfect balance, making the farmed mission less worthwhile than others.

Another idea would be to have different, cyclic changing base multipliers to push different missions to the top in terms of efficiency.

My personal favorite idea would be to have the factions apply different strategies. If the Grineer get pushed back on all fronts, they could focus their efforts on very few missions, lowering the multipliers on all other missions but letting the multiplier of those few missions go through the roof.

The Corpus could "pay they troops more", leading to stronger enemies and doubled drop chances of rare items.

Edited April 7, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

15 hours ago, Raniu said:

You missed the point. It's not only about nerfing Draco, it's about making different nodes as good as Draco and introducing some kind of balance for how players are rewarded for playing different nodes.

And buff a vast number of other nodes...

 

You guys should read this:

It's not that there wouldn't be a Draco, but that the best node would be different from day to day - even hour to hour. And creating that kind of variability in an otherwise static star chart (alerts and invasions notwithstanding) is, to me at least, an exciting concept that wouldn't require a Herculean effort to code, compared to other 'solutions' to the 'Draco problem'.

I couldn't agree more.

You missed my point.

I am saying DE likely wont buff other nodes in ways that matter because it hurts their business model.

[KaeseSchnitte]

1 hour ago, P0TAT0CANN0N said:

You missed my point.

I am saying DE likely wont buff other nodes in ways that matter because it hurts their business model.

Why should they put off their player base, when they instead could just release another deluxe skin and earn considerably more money?

[magusat999]

On 4/2/2016 at 0:15 PM, KaeseSchnitte said:

Suggestion:

Missions that are not often played compared with all other missions in the game should become harder, spawn more enemies and award more loot and XP up to a cetain point (x1.5?) than their often played counterparts.

Likewise, often played missions should become easier, spawn less enemies and award less loot and XP.

 

Expected impact:

This would lead to missions that are often played becoming unattractive, while missions that are played less often becoming more attractive.

If done right, this could make missions shifting in and out of "the meta", based on how often they have been played in the recent past. The multiplier should be displayed on the star chart, to show players which missions are harder and which are easier.

 

Q&A:

Q: Draco is not a problem, that is just your opinion!

A: The devs have said that they want to disincentivize Draco, so Draco's fate has already been sealed.

 

Q: Your suggeystion is too complicated, just nerf X or buff Y!

A: There will always be one best way of getting something as universally aviable as experience. If you just nerf Draco, or buff something else, that something will become the "new Draco" and you have not fixed, but shifted the issue onto another mission or gametype.

 

Q: Then just make something else as good as Draco!

A: You'd need the perfect balance to make something as rewarding as Draco. And you know what they say about perfection. But even if they'd manage to make another mission as rewarding as Draco, it would either be ignored or it would become old after a while too. And you can't just make all the missions equally rewarding, since you alos need some sort of progression in the game and progression means that there will always be one best way to get what you want.

Your "suggestions" don't solve anything. They cannot solve anything because what you are looking to do is to eliminate loot caves, and get rid of the incentive to go to Draco.

As another user stated - there will Always be loot caves. Your counter to that was off. You must accept human nature or you are just spinning your wheels. People want to do things quickly and efficiently. Warframe practically FLAUNTS itself (well DE flaunts it) as a grinding game, with punishing RNG - so you have a player base that is aware of this, and they will stop at nothing to get around it. Nobody but bored people who have nothing left to achieve want to grind if they can help it, and THAT is why there will always be loot caves. And if DE ever figures out how to completely erase farming, camping, loot caves and other ways to make collecting resources easier - it will dry up and die. So no matter what you think they hate, DE isn't stupid and they know they would alienate a massive portion of their player-base by shutting off all avenues to "looting". That user who said there will always be loot caves didn't say that out of thin air, he said that because there has never been a time in Warframe's existence where there was not some kind of so-called "loot cave", and its not going away any time soon.

You harp on this Draco thing - Draco is not an issue. Just because a lot of people go there (which is another reason to leave it alone, not a reason to eliminate it) doesn't justify nerfing away at it - sounds bass-ackwards anyway... "People like this feature too much... GET RID OF IT!" Does that make sense? Not to me. Draco is just another place people are using, there are back-up places but Draco is just hot right now. Draco had already been "De-incentiviized", btw. There use to be much better rewards there, but since its viewed as some problem, which I don't see why because you are not forced to go there - it's been nerfed and the enemy aggression has been raised... which just makes people adjust their gear for even higher level play. The one thing left is trash resource collection and xp. They nerf that and Draco is dead... but then there will be another area (there already is, it just isn't popular). There will always be a Draco, Xini was once Draco, Sechura was Draco, ODD was Draco, T4D was Draco... You cannot just blow a bomb on one area and expect the problem to be solved - Draco is just one head that spawned out of the mess that started when they decided to nerf Xini... and it is not going to stop by Draco being nerfed.

What you really mean to say is you have ideas on how to stop farming. Tell it to us like that. You want people to stop farming - nerfing Draco or any other place is not going to do it. You are trying to impose your playstyle preferences on others - because you can just not farm, and it wouldn't affect anyone else's game - but when you ask the Devs to gimp the game to eradicate farming, which is an activity that affects you ZERO - then you are being inconsiderate to others and other people's play-style, trying to force your way on other people, when I re-iterate, the option to play your way is already available without bothering other people. Draco doesn't need fixing, its perspectives like the ones who demand things like this at the chagrin of others that needs correcting.

Oh and you already submit to the notion that there will always be a Draco, so what is the point of making a suggestion post to change or get rid of it? if there will always be a Draco - then just leave the current Draco alone, right?

Edited April 7, 2016 by magusat999

[Fifield]

27 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

if there will always be a Draco - then just leave the current Draco alone, right?

No.  Draco is boring when you've done it even a few times, never mind the 200x most players do it.

Plus DE are going to kill it anyway.  You have a choice between making the game a lot better via this suggestion or making it worse (for you).  And you chose the latter.

[KaeseSchnitte]

On 2.4.2016 at 6:15 PM, KaeseSchnitte said:

Q: Your suggestion wont fix the "lootcave" issue!

A: Yes and no. On the one hand, there will still be a mission that is the most rewarding one. On the other hand, this mission wont always be Draco but hopefully many different missions which are alternating each other over time.

So while there will still be one best place to farm experience, that place wont be tied to a location or a node, but to a high multiplier.

 

On 3.4.2016 at 6:08 PM, KaeseSchnitte said:

Well, you clearly seem to lack imagination. For example, DE could color the mission nodes based on their multiplier. My suggestion wont fix the loot cave, it will just make sure that the loot cave is not the same mission every time.

 

On 3.4.2016 at 8:13 PM, KaeseSchnitte said:

How do you want to fix the lootcave? There will be always one best way to far something that is as universially aviable as XP. The only system where there wouldn't be one best way to farm XP would be a system of perfect balance. A system of perfection. And I hope you know what they say about perfection.

So my idea is to simply make every mission a "lootcave" for a while, one after another.

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[magusat999]

Just now, Fifield said:

No.  Draco is boring when you've done it even a few times, never mind the 200x most players do it.

Plus DE are going to kill it anyway.  You have a choice between making the game a lot better via this suggestion or making it worse (for you).  And you chose the latter.

Well...

1) if you think it's boring, then don't go there - you don't HAVE TO. that really isn't even a point to be made. Other people do not think it is boring, so they should have a right to enjoy it, whether YOU are bored with it or not. Your not proposing it be eliminated or changed just because YOU don't like it, and just forget the other players, are you?

2) If "Ge are going to kill it anyway" why waste time making suggestions to change it?

Like I said before, it isn't impacting your game, and "there will always be a Draco", so just leave it alone.

[Fifield]

13 hours ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

My personal favorite idea would be to have the factions apply different strategies. If the Grineer get pushed back on all fronts, they could focus their efforts on very few missions, lowering the multipliers on all other missions but letting the multiplier of those few missions go through the roof.

The Corpus could "pay they troops more", leading to stronger enemies and doubled drop chances of rare items.

This is neat, especially if Corpus and Infested XP gets buffed to match Grineer.

[Fifield]

2 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

it isn't impacting your game, and "there will always be a Draco", so just leave it alone.

Sorry, I have this bad habit of making suggestions to improve the game in the suggestion forum.

[KaeseSchnitte]

15 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

Well...

1) if you think it's boring, then don't go there - you don't HAVE TO. that really isn't even a point to be made. Other people do not think it is boring, so they should have a right to enjoy it, whether YOU are bored with it or not. Your not proposing it be eliminated or changed just because YOU don't like it, and just forget the other players, are you?

2) If "Ge are going to kill it anyway" why waste time making suggestions to change it?

Like I said before, it isn't impacting your game, and "there will always be a Draco", so just leave it alone.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, even about 3 times in the Q&A section of the OP, DE has said that they want to nerf Draco. This nerf is coming and you will have to cope with that. I am making this suggestion so that the devs don't have to keep the balance in check all the time, since the players will do that for them.

My suggestion nerfs Draco and any mission that might get "abused" afterwards, as it is in the interest of the devs, while you as a player have an incentive to play missions that were neglected before.

[KaeseSchnitte]

On 6.4.2016 at 6:05 PM, P0TAT0CANN0N said:

Name 10 areas on the solar map that are as good as Draco for leveling and I can bet that after they nerf Draco then they will nerf each and every one of those.

The funny thing is that DE wouldn't have to nerf anything, since you would nerf yourself by playing those missions more often than other missions get played. The multiplier would drop, less enemies would spawn and the mission would be less rewarding. But at the same time, other missions will stack up their multiplier, presenting an alternative farming method.

If balanced correctly, endless missions and finite missions will strike a fine balance, whereby finite missions are better than endless ones on short term, but endless ones stack better and thus reward more the longer you play them.

There was also a concern that missions that reward over-average quantities of loot, such as neurodes or neural sensors, would get hit by those multipliers. That is true and intended. The multiplier should not affect the loot directly, just the amount of enemies that spawn during the missions. Those enemies then have a chance of dropping the loot you want, meaning that a higher multiplier will result in more enemies spawning, which then rewards more loot. So someone who'd want to farm for items would just as affected by this suggestion as someone who's farming for XP.

[Shockwave-]

On 4/2/2016 at 0:34 PM, akira_him said:

too complicated

just revert the excavation changes they did, give us back old kiste, and improve the stealth counter, suddenly a lot of people will get away from Draco

yes please on excavation. the new excavation is simply not fun even without reward times or what not, it is just so much less fun. Lengthen the drills to 120 seconds to lower times.

[KaeseSchnitte]

While this is not the thread for discussing such things, if DE would implement my suggestion adn excavation missions would still be neglected, they could easily buff those missions in some way without running the risk of tilting the balance.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 4/2/2016 at 4:00 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Get. Rid. Of. Forma. Reset. Period.

That's it. Thats all you have to do to get rid of Draco farming. Forma resets are tedious, frustrating and show complete lack of respect for players' time and efforts. So players seek to shortcut the grind. 

If you get rid of Draco players will find the next best loot cave. Because - say it with me - there will always be a loot cave. Always. Players will simply gravitate to the next best spot for farming. You base your entire game around the need to farm and a subset of players will always seek out the best, most efficient method to do it. 

Edit: One other question: Why does it matter so much to some people how others want to play a game? If people want to farm efficiently it isnt hurting you. Stop trying to force everyone to play your way.

this ^   if applying forma did not reset the weapon/frame to 0, draco would vanish as a popular loot cave. also, players would enjoy the game much more.  also, imho, there is nothing wrong with draco or any other creative way that players find to make their game more enjoyable.  call them loot caves, exploits or whatever... players find a creative way to accomplish a specific goal... good for them. 

also, to repeat the quote above... OP why does it matter to you how others play their game?  if you don't want to play draco, don't play it.  

if you enjoy spy missions, should I demand that spy missions be eliminated because i don't like them and they clog up my game?   that would be quite rude, don't you think?