Ash Rework (Straw poll)

[AKKILLA]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Intent is not in the trivia, only that it was the first physical weapon tied to a 'frame. 

ThanksYou actually made My statement that much more viable, they didnt intend to implement at the earlier days because They didnt have this kknowledge but with these new findings it makes great sense to implement Exalted Blade Storm

[Livinger]

Akkilla, you are really doing a great job with all these researches and ideas and i hope that we will see at least part of this project in game.

 

[AKKILLA]

Just now, Livinger said:

Akkilla, you are really doing a great job with all these researches and ideas and i hope that we will see at least part of this project in game.

 

Thank You soo much You give Me inspiration and Motivation to keep going. 

My ideas arent perfect but My love and passion for Ash make them seemingly viable along with My Fan Boyism and Ninja Enthusiastic Nature I will research like a Shinobi Operative and Find more solid Facts to base My arguements by instead of just pure emotional rants and derrogatory statements.

I dont want all Warframe Stances that would be rediculous but these ideas merely fit as My research gathered this knowledge it made My findings that more solid to base it by.

Also the facts that are in Game like how Ash is now Farmed from Manics, they do behave similar, and Quickening functioning for Blade Storm which is a Channeled Melee mod and makes no sense to implement if a Blade StormStance makes no sense how does this fly?

Its already in game and Blade Storm isnt a Channeled ability if I am correct right?

I see why not 

 

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

This is how it is done. Akkilla is on the right tract at the very least. Ash is meant to destroy small groups and tough singular targets and this is how we get him there with a little team synergy thrown in. 

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Why not Scale shuriken off of certain mods only to scale the damage up just a bit more? I would say keep it as slash damage mods and some elementals? W.E You think works best I just wanted to provide some solid proof that Shuriken could scale off of melee mods as these 1st abilities do

Hmm... Maybe it could just deal Finisher damage like Xarathos suggested, but it could also benefit and contribute to the melee combo meter, like Blade Storm does. As an added bonus, it could hit the same body part on all enemies hit by it (however many that ends up being) with a pretty substantial headshot multiplier. That would make the ability powerful without causing build conflicts, would build on Ash's synergy with melee combat, and would greatly reward player skill by making the ability absurdly powerful for someone who could consistently land headshots. The way I see it, Shuriken should do a lot more damage but be limited to just a few targets, while Blade Storm should be his way to strike many targets for less damage. Honestly, that's the way I think that the whole single target/AoE relationship should be across the board. 

2 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

You made a good point Im not sure if I explained it but I stated only in Blade Storm You can recast SS, each smoke screen currently up should deactivate the last.

Just make it so that Smokescreen is recastable by default. Like I said, it's a bad move to force Ash to use Blade Storm to make full use of his abilities. If it does something extra while Blade Storm is active, that's one thing, but it shouldn't do something that should be part of the base ability only while Blade Storm is active. This forced synergy is almost acceptable on Saryn, since any Saryn player worth their salt will be spreading Toxin and Viral anyway, but with Blade Storm, there's just no justification for that. Blade Storm is just not the kind of skill that an entire kit should be constructed around. 

3 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

Now the idea of keeping Ash invisible while in Blade Storm is ideally a concept to add survival and elusiveness, I explained when attacking You always Break invisibility trading it off for Invulnerability. The idea was thought up because this style of Blade Storm requires You to do all the killing

That's fair, but I think that's putting too many eggs in one basket, so to speak. The way I see it, it would hardly change a thing if Blade Storm made you invisible, since it would largely do Smokescreen's job better, since it would have the huge benefit of permanent invisibility.

I think Ash has enough elusiveness and surviability without adding invisibility to Blade Storm, especially with your proposed changes to Smokescreen and Teleport. 

1 hour ago, AKKILLA said:

That still doesnt invalidate My concept, nor is keeping Blade Storm Fire and Forget a Good Concept because You just want to keep an auto Radial Nuke a good idea, Imo and not only mines but DE and a vast amount of the community want Interactive abilities. Press 4 and watch these cut scenes must Die! Its Seriously Boring and makes Me only Love Ash as a Real Ninja enthusiast but lets be real. 

In defense of the current iteration of Blade Storm, it does one thing really well: It's synergistic with melee combat, without outright replacing it. Since they're both tied to the melee combo meter, one makes the other stronger. Melee strikes power up Blade Storm, while Blade Storm powers up melee strikes in return. That's a pretty unique trait of Ash's. Stance Blade Storm would completely take that away, and I think, as a whole, it would make him a lot less unique. Especially because I can already accomplish your vision for Ash with Excalibur and Shadow Step, only with a lot more CC and a 40 meter range on melee attacks.  

[Yajirushi12]

Honestly, Ash and Loki serve entirely different roles in the current meta. And the biggest game-breaking thing Ash has right now is that his 4 also grants invulnerability to its targets.

[Yajirushi12]

Yeah, Blade Storm needs a fix to make it more active, but right now its annoying to play alongside an Ash because I could kill that ancient he's attacking in 3 swings, but instead he's beating on it for 6 more because BS doesn't do anything against ancients.

[Yajirushi12]

Loki and Ash have entirely different roles, just because Ash has a stealth ability doesn't make him comparable to Loki.

 

Ash is a pure damage dealer right now, and he does need a change. But simply making BS into a stance seems like a very lazy way to do it. We don't need another (tbh, weaker) Excalibur.

[Yajirushi12]

Well, I agree that DE will probably add more frames with Exalted Blade-esque abilities, and I think every time DE adds one, it will immediately be compared to Excalibur. By the same logic you compared Loki to Ash, I can compare your "fixed" Ash to Excalibur.

And, even with the other changes, if DE changes Bladestorm to an Exalted Blade style ability no one will take an Ash along anymore unless it outshines Excalibur. Excalibur has too much utility compared to Ash (even with the revamps in your idea) to ever take an Ash. It also seems like you want Smoke Cloud to turn into almost exactly a Radial Blind clone, which would only further the comparison to Excalibur and again result in Ash never being taken along for anything where mobs level past 40-60.

 

Edit: Building duration on an Ash necessitates the loss of some combination of range and/or strength, which will directly weaken his Bladestorm which is the only thing anyone cares about in the current state of his abilties, if you want an invis frame run Loki or Ivara. You never really filled out how his 4 would work in your ideas, you briefly mention that there are clones but say nothing about how they work (Mirage Halls clones or something else).  Also, letting him stealth all the time while not attacking while his 4 is running is a bit ridiculous, especially with him being invulnerable while attacking.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Yajirushi12

[AKKILLA]

To counter the response of Abilities being similar and that not being Viable here are more to point out and compare

REST

SLEEP ARROW

DECOY

MOLT

DEVOUR SAND CLONES

SHADOWS OF THE DEAD

SLASH DASH

LAND SLIDE

RHINO CHARGE

EXALTED BLADE 

HYSTERIA

PRIMAL FURY

If You really wish to compare Stance abilities to Exalted Blade You should take into consideration that Exalted Blade is not the First Stance Ability

 

Lets go by what existed First and not by what the community uses as a Troll/Pun for Stance abilities shall we?

[Yajirushi12]

Those other abilities are similar, but you don't see people taking a Valkyr because of her ability to do damage, its her ability to survive forever instead.

You're taking the comparisons to far to vague of a generalized list, yes those frames have similar abilities but the overall purpose of the frame is something entirely different in each case. Your proposed change makes Ash and Excalibur attempt to fill almost exactly the same role which means one will be forever neglected based on comparative strengths.

[AKKILLA]

2 minutes ago, Yajirushi12 said:

Those other abilities are similar, but you don't see people taking a Valkyr because of her ability to do damage, its her ability to survive forever instead.

You're taking the comparisons to far to vague of a generalized list, yes those frames have similar abilities but the overall purpose of the frame is something entirely different in each case. Your proposed change makes Ash and Excalibur attempt to fill almost exactly the same role which means one will be forever neglected based on comparative strengths.

Not at all

Not even close

My idea is making Ash a Ninja, He already has a Smoke Bomb that functions in a Fictional Fairy tale way

Ok we are space Ninjas with Powers, cool. Why not implement both Logic with Fantasy?

Its a similar concept to Assassins Creed but also seen in other assassin/ninja games like Tenchu, Metal Gear, heck even Batman drops smoke pellets that cover him and allow for Takedowns

In this case this smoke screen provides CC and opens up Finishers which is in line with Ashs archtype and damage out put.

You cant tell me that a 1 second stagger is CC its a mediocre CC and a terrible one to consider at that.

 

 

[VampirePirate]

1 hour ago, Yajirushi12 said:

Honestly, Ash and Loki serve entirely different roles in the current meta. And the biggest game-breaking thing Ash has right now is that his 4 also grants invulnerability to its targets.

Yes they do play entirely different roles that should not be compared.

Ash's 4th does not grant invulnerability to its targets.  Those targets can be killed by other players.  It's always been that way.

[AKKILLA]

3 minutes ago, VampirePirate said:

Yes they do play entirely different roles that should not be compared.

Ash's 4th does not grant invulnerability to its targets.  Those targets can be killed by other players.  It's always been that way.

Not the enemies currently under attack By Ash/Clones tho.

Thats why there was a few other threads regarding that factor of BS. I can understand because Ash players press 4 and the work is done for You oppose to the team having to work for those kills and Ash pops up when You decide to Shoot an enemy is disappointing.

The enemies Highlighted in Red which are considered Marked by Blade Storm can be damaged and Killed but the ones with Ash on them cannot

Thats a problem but its due to the fact that Blade Storm is an 18 kill/hit Finisher Kill, Finishers as stated in wikia offer immunity to the Player and the enemy under attack soo You and the enemy are rendered invulnerable to damage because of this

[(XBOX)UKILR]

I really like this idea of yours. I main Ash Prime, but must agree he needs work. I never bother with Teleport, though I'd like to use it more. I also feel like Shruiken is almost useless. I only use it when I'm desperate, and can spam a few of them against one to four targets. My point is, the one Frame that is actually like a ninja seems extremely week in the "Ninja" category. He definitely needs help in my opinion. The only moves I really use are Smoke Screen (to hide from enemies when my health is low or if a teammate is surrounded by enemies and bleeding out) and Blade Storm (for crowd control). I find it sad that I use Valkyr's Rip Line (had her for a few days now, but I've used Rip Line too many times to count, especially just to mess around) more than I have Ash's Teleport (had him for months now, and have used Teleport possibly one to five times at most).

[VampirePirate]

3 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

Not the enemies currently under attack By Ash/Clones tho.

Thats why there was a few other threads regarding that factor of BS. I can understand because Ash players press 4 and the work is done for You oppose to the team having to work for those kills and Ash pops up when You decide to Shoot an enemy is disappointing.

The enemies Highlighted in Red which are considered Marked by Blade Storm can be damaged and Killed but the ones with Ash on them cannot

Thats a problem but its due to the fact that Blade Storm is an 18 kill/hit Finisher Kill, Finishers as stated in wikia offer immunity to the Player and the enemy under attack soo You and the enemy are rendered invulnerable to damage because of this

I'm well aware of all that.  It's not even a problem.  I tend to kill targets marked by Ash and his clones and finish them off before he does.   I try not to do this out of respect for the players using Ash.   Besides all that, to use this "invulnerable target" thing as an excuse to bash Blade Storm is ridiculous.  It's not an obstacle to be concerned about, especially if you can kill off so many marked targets before Ash can get to them.

[(XBOX)UKILR]

5 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

Not the enemies currently under attack By Ash/Clones tho.

Thats why there was a few other threads regarding that factor of BS. I can understand because Ash players press 4 and the work is done for You oppose to the team having to work for those kills and Ash pops up when You decide to Shoot an enemy is disappointing.

The enemies Highlighted in Red which are considered Marked by Blade Storm can be damaged and Killed but the ones with Ash on them cannot

Thats a problem but its due to the fact that Blade Storm is an 18 kill/hit Finisher Kill, Finishers as stated in wikia offer immunity to the Player and the enemy under attack soo You and the enemy are rendered invulnerable to damage because of this

I find it awkward when I'm in an Annihilation match, and use my Blade Storm out of "instinct". Watching my Ash stand after a weird smoke-red-figure show-thing confuses me, and usually leads to me dying as it isn't always a one-hit kill in Annihilation, and I don't get to watch him do his thing.

[AKKILLA]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)UKILR said:

I really like this idea of yours. I main Ash Prime, but must agree he needs work. I never bother with Teleport, though I'd like to use it more. I also feel like Shruiken is almost useless. I only use it when I'm desperate, and can spam a few of them against one to four targets. My point is, the one Frame that is actually like a ninja seems extremely week in the "Ninja" category. He definitely needs help in my opinion. The only moves I really use are Smoke Screen (to hide from enemies when my health is low or if a teammate is surrounded by enemies and bleeding out) and Blade Storm (for crowd control). I find it sad that I use Valkyr's Rip Line (had her for a few days now, but I've used Rip Line too many times to count, especially just to mess around) more than I have Ash's Teleport (had him for months now, and have used Teleport possibly one to five times at most).

Yeah I wish to implement more usability for Ash, some guys here prefer to press 4 tho because they dont want there builds ruined.

I Highly respect and agree that Arcane Trickery should be taken into account and thats why I kept the damage output the same so it procs (Finisher Damage)

Smoke Screen should be his real CC ability not a unengaging uncontrollable Ultimate

[(XBOX)UKILR]

1 hour ago, AKKILLA said:

Yes its annoying and I play Ash like all day, I played a few runs in squads with other Ashs and I realized this. I prefer the Stance it will kill the Radial Nuke and force Ash players to play the Game which seemingly some here prefer to let Blade Storm play the game for them. Thats a touchy subject tho everytime I mention it someone gets mad and responds with such emotions its funny. 

Imo it provesthey just prefer the current Blade Storm and they dont want it changed. If a change is made they prefer a Cancel Button and maybe a Camera Fix and tbh Thats not a Fix at all, thats just the same think sugar coated to shut people up.

Blade Storm needs to change Period!

I cant promote to My friends and family who like video games and Ninjas to play Warframe because Blade Storm is a disappointment.

My cuzin even said it too me last night, He told Me "How do You play this crap? Its boring You press 4 and that abilities gonna give you a seizure"

That Hurt My pride and I could do nothing but agree with him as a design and game mechanic stand point.

He even mentioned it perfectly

Its Boring and Unengaging

#StanceBladeStorm2016 ;)

Honestly, I feel like "Fours" aren't something that can be talked about, unless you play all frames. Everyone always has their own opinions about their favorite frames Four, as it's usually the best move, and the most OP move against several unprepared Frames. It's like walking in a minefield, only the entire ground is made out of mines.

Edited April 4, 2016 by (XB1)UKILR

[AKKILLA]

5 minutes ago, VampirePirate said:

I'm well aware of all that.  It's not even a problem.  I tend to kill targets marked by Ash and his clones and finish them off before he does.   I try not to do this out of respect for the players using Ash.   Besides all that, to use this "invulnerable target" thing as an excuse to bash Blade Storm is ridiculous.  It's not an obstacle to be concerned about, especially if you can kill off so many marked targets before Ash can get to them.

Well I dont really have a huge issue with that since I practically play Ash all the time I dont have that problem but i have experienced it before and I just sit back and watch the spectacle tbh and I realized how much Blade Storm resembles other abilities in other games like Ninja Gaidens Ultimate Technique.

 

This is basically Blade Storm imo just Blade Storm obviously teleports further and targets 18 enemies while Ryu's UT attacks w.e is in his Radius but aesthetically and conceptually are brothers.

Ryu works similar, You charge the ability though and with essence it charges the UT Faster and you simply release and watch it go.

Although Ryu's UT looks visually more appealing and has no cut scene issues its still unengaging but Ninja Gaiden is a One Player Triple A game and Warframe is a Multiplayer online MMO 3rd Person shooter and thats not Interactive or fun to watch at all

[Yajirushi12]

I want Ash's 4 to be changed/improved, so very bad, but I don't want an Exalted Blade clone. You ideas essentially translate to an Exalted Blade clone for Ash's 4.

[AKKILLA]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)UKILR said:

I find it awkward when I'm in an Annihilation match, and use my Blade Storm out of "instinct". Watching my Ash stand after a weird smoke-red-figure show-thing confuses me, and usually leads to me dying as it isn't always a one-hit kill in Annihilation, and I don't get to watch him do his thing.

PERFECT

Theres something I forgot to take into consideration

CONCLAVE BLADE STORM IS TRASH

It sucks badly and this is another reason why the stance will be best, Sometimes if You press 4 in PvP he does NOTHING and You wasted energy which is disappointing and TBH I prefer Shuriken in PvP then his entire kit which tbh is TERRIBLE and PvP is the Best example to judging Ashs kit.

Smoke Screen is Trash, once You attack You break invisibility

Teleport is garbage You dont stun or stagger enemies and it never really teleports you close enough to get in melee attacks

Blade Storm staggers 1-2 enemies? Thats Basura (Garbage)

Shuriken is My favorite in PvP because every time i use it it deals massive damage I have even gotten a Double Kill one shot shuriken cast and I was laughing how bad a$$ shuriken is PvP wise. I use it alot to weaken enemies the fire My guns

 

[AKKILLA]

Just now, Yajirushi12 said:

I want Ash's 4 to be changed/improved, so very bad, but I don't want an Exalted Blade clone. You ideas essentially translate to an Exalted Blade clone for Ash's 4.

Thanks for Your opinion. Any ideas what Your Blade Storm change will be?

Please I hope its not a Quick Time Event (basically a manual Teleport, Stance Blade Storm is better imo)

Press 4 to send out Clones (Ninja Rumblers?) Seems like stealing Atlas' Ulti.

I prefer Exalted Blade Storm, call it what You wish. Its better and interactive imo

[Eldnacpeek]

Ash is not in the shadow of Loki. These frames have nothing but one ability in common, they are used and designed in completely different ways. This way of thinking isn't really sensical, if you want to propose a rework then do it without bringing an invalid comparison.

Regarding the channeled Blade Storm, I strongly believe it's a bad idea. Turning Blade Storm into yet another stance ult, regardless of "dash Teleport", removes the individuality of Blade Storm. We've received enough exalted melee within a very short matter of time, it got old really fast. Ash's Blade Storm should receive dedicated treatment that is completely distinguishable from an exalted melee; an ability subtype that's received more than enough attention (for a while, at the very least).

Edited April 4, 2016 by LazerSkink

[PickleMonster21]

I don't care much for your rework, because as a Player that favours Ash, I can say that running a build that isn't focused on Blade Storm works perfectly fine if you couple that with actual skill.

Anyhow, can you change the misleading title of this thread? I was expecting yet another "Loki is better than Ash" thread.