Saryn's DPS

[alergiclaprosti]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

While they Aren't Level 135 it's as close as i could get It is without Naramon And Shadow Debt Mods though

Exactly ..... you have taken down the level ..... and if you have a more diversified lot of enemies(let's say ... put one or two napalms in there) you would die or get things done with a very large amount of effort.

Now think about how fast Excalibur, Mirage or, why avoid talking about the elephant in the room, Inaros, would have killed that diversified lot of enemies of lvl 135?!

 

Notice how I left out Valkyr. It would deal with those vermin a lot faster and easier, but she doesn't help in any way the team.

The OP made the point that ..... Saryn can't deal with enemies as other warframes can. There are a lot more that can't do that, but Saryn had it's rework not long ago.

Edited April 5, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

Just now, alergiclaprosti said:

Exactly ..... you have take down the level ..... and if you have a more diversified lot of enemies(let's say ... put one or two napalms in there) you would die or get things doe with a very large amount of effort.

Now think about how fast Excalibur, Mirage or, why avoid to talk about the elephant in the room, Inaros, would have killed that diversified lot of enemies of lvl 135?!

Keep in Mind i didn't Tone down the Level that's as high as i can possibly go right now Granted There Would Have Been Other Heavies there Or even a couple Nullifiers

Thankfully there are no Corrupted napalms and the only Grineer nulifier is in the raid

also as there would have Been Heavies there would have also been trash there to Fuel her Spore DPS and by no means is 20 heavies at once a realistic scenario

And as pointed out Earlier Your technically not supposed to fight level 135 enemies the Highest they go in Sorties or Raids Are around 90 - 110 Which can be a pretty big EHP gap and my Example of 95 Fits Smack dab in what DE actually Expects you to win Against

[hukurokuju5]

saryn can dunk on the entire starchart under level 80s.

after that, enemy scaling gets to be a bit much, and then she only has guaranteed viral proc and an aoe ministun.

 

she does not have any multipliers in her kit that compete with stealth multipliers or weapon damage multipliers(straight damage output scaling) .  

She also does not have significant CC ( scaling that ignores level and stats)

 

saryn is a damage caster frame with limited utility. like ember, but arguably less cc... 

 

 

[Rambit23Z]

36 minutes ago, alergiclaprosti said:

Exactly ..... you have taken down the level ..... and if you have a more diversified lot of enemies(let's say ... put one or two napalms in there) you would die or get things done with a very large amount of effort.

Now think about how fast Excalibur, Mirage or, why avoid talking about the elephant in the room, Inaros, would have killed that diversified lot of enemies of lvl 135?!

 

Notice how I left out Valkyr. It would deal with those vermin a lot faster and easier, but she doesn't help in any way the team.

The OP made the point that ..... Saryn can't deal with enemies as other warframes can. There are a lot more that can't do that, but Saryn had it's rework not long ago.

Look at the Galatine build. No Blood Rush, obviously it's going to take longer. To my knowledge consoles don't have those mods yet

[akira_him]

what if you mod that with corrosive but not gas, would it kill faster?

[PrincessPilfer]

3 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

Exactly ..... you have taken down the level ..... and if you have a more diversified lot of enemies(let's say ... put one or two napalms in there) you would die or get things done with a very large amount of effort.

Now think about how fast Excalibur, Mirage or, why avoid talking about the elephant in the room, Inaros, would have killed that diversified lot of enemies of lvl 135?!

 

Notice how I left out Valkyr. It would deal with those vermin a lot faster and easier, but she doesn't help in any way the team.

The OP made the point that ..... Saryn can't deal with enemies as other warframes can. There are a lot more that can't do that, but Saryn had it's rework not long ago.

Cute. Now tell me precisely how many frames that don't have a blind, invisibility or god mode can stand toe to toe with level 135 enemies. Once you've done that tell me what exactly is the problem with using naramon? Once you've done that you're still wrong because there are other ways to pop spores.

 

Saryn isn't supposed to deal with enemies as other frames can. She's supposed to deal with enemies as SARYN can. Single target heavy killing is not and was never what she was for.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

3 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

cute..... now do that  without Naramon.

Is there a reason to not use naramon? One could even add a huras and stay invisible from the start to end....

 

Naramon was introduced to make you invisible upon playing melee. You're not gonna complain about how it litteraly does what it's intendet to are you?...

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 hours ago, akira_him said:

what if you mod that with corrosive but not gas, would it kill faster?

Yea in therms of pinpoint damage, no in therms of radial damage. 

The thing with mass-spreading spores is that it strongly profits from a good base and scales off base numbers (for probably 100%, gonna test it tho). 

Higher base, spread with a multiplicator > higher pinpoint damage which spreads lower numbers. 

Not worth it as weapon status, it's definitly worth it to grabb CP and the aura drift tho.

[ThatOddDeer]

4 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Very nice demonstration. Can you do another one with Gas modded weapons and include Atterax as well (for mass spore popping), pretty please? It will be very useful for linking in any future discussions.

edit: also please try spawning 20 drakh master to get a proper target rich enviroment for spores.

 

20 drahk masters is beyond excessive for spore count since its better to load a target with toxin then spread spores rather than have that many targets initially, though the range on my build will be more than enough to cover them all, RIP my video quality though. Also I'll demonstrate hikou prime spam after loading targets up with toxin later today once classes are over.

The reason I use naramon is so that I can skip out on life strike, which lets me maximize my dps. I had a way of testing otherwise i'd use that but so far only naramon suits my needs.

I'll also showcase gas, and the atterax despite mine only being level 21 it still does work, which is slightly worse than corrosive but it's still usually my slash procs that kill things rather than toxin or spores.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[ThatOddDeer]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Yea in therms of pinpoint damage, no in therms of radial damage. 

The thing with mass-spreading spores is that it strongly profits from a good base and scales off base numbers (for probably 100%, gonna test it tho). 

Higher base, spread with a multiplicator > higher pinpoint damage which spreads lower numbers. 

Not worth it as weapon status, it's definitly worth it to grabb CP and the aura drift tho.

The thing is, in true endgame with level 135+, killing heavies is what you need to do. The eHP difference between a heavy and a non-heavy unit is massive so woopdy-freaking-do if you kill a bunch of the weak enemies while a heavy gunner is shooting down the objective or your teamamtes.

If I was running a 4x cp I would NEVER consider using saryn, despite me using her anyways, because everyone would mod for viral, best damage type against flesh, and her role in the squad could entirely be replaced by banshee or nova. That's the problem with her current design is that it is so easily obsoleted by the current system and her kit becomes bland very quickly.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

25 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

The thing is, in true endgame with level 135+, killing heavies is what you need to do. The eHP difference between a heavy and a non-heavy unit is massive so woopdy-freaking-do if you kill a bunch of the weak enemies while a heavy gunner is shooting down the objective or your teamamtes.

If I was running a 4x cp I would NEVER consider using saryn, despite me using her anyways, because everyone would mod for viral, best damage type against flesh, and her role in the squad could entirely be replaced by banshee or nova. That's the problem with her current design is that it is so easily obsoleted by the current system and her kit becomes bland very quickly.

Except for the heavy spreading poison you ignored from the beginning of this thread untill now.

 

Banshees and novas limits are percental while saryns potential is exponential to the times you multispread it, what makes it unlimited. Given that you actually use it and don't expect the game autopilot you trough this.

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

Banshees and novas limits are percental while saryns potential is exponential to the times you multispread it, what makes it unlimited. Given that you actually use it and don't expect the game autopilot you trough this.

Not at all. This is gonna sound like an attack but you need to realize you're being dense to evidence I provided. 

saryn's potential IS limited. Spore is effective 2x damage and never anything higher ever.Spreading a spore does not increase its damage, it's linear scaling based on how fast you can pop spore and add toxin to it. LINEAR scaling. Nova has a 15x multiplier on AMD in a large aoe and the same 2x damage multtiplier attached to an amazing CC. Banshee without power strength has the ability to do 5x damage up to 15x and with augments you can layer spots on top of each other for true exponential scaling. Your grasp on the mechanics of warframe and saryn are so poor you insult me as both a veteran min-maxer and saryn main. I love my saryn and use her to bits but she is NOT as good as you make her out to be. Prove to me your "strategies" and I'll shoot them down every time.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Just now, ThatOddDeer said:

Not at all. This is gonna sound like an attack but you need to realize you're being dense to evidence I provided. 

saryn's potential IS limited. Spore is effective 2x damage and never anything higher ever.Spreading a spore does not increase its damage, it's linear scaling based on how fast you can pop spore and add toxin to it. LINEAR scaling. Nova has a 15x multiplier on AMD in a large aoe and the same 2x damage multtiplier attached to an amazing CC. Banshee without power strength has the ability to do 5x damage up to 15x and with augments you can layer spots on top of each other for true exponential scaling. Your grasp on the mechanics of warframe and saryn are so poor you insult me as both a veteran min-maxer and saryn main. I love my saryn and use her to bits but she is NOT as good as you make her out to be. Prove to me your "strategies" and I'll shoot them down every time.

You litteraly ignored it on your "evidence" and this got pointed out immediatly by multiple people. Seriously, follow my advice, grad a torid, hikou or whatever radial source you prefer, start with spreading spores and detonate them after you set appropiate poison on enemys with a appropiate number of spores on them. Each spore you destroy will spread the full quantity of the present poison then, to enemys who themselfes also spread the full quantity of theyr shared poison PER SPORE. That's the whole trick.

[ThatOddDeer]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You litteraly ignored it on your "evidence" and this got pointed out immediatly by multiple people. Seriously, follow my advice, grad a torid, hikou or whatever radial source you prefer, start with spreading spores and detonate them after you set appropiate poison on enemys with a appropiate number of spores on them. Each spore you destroy will spread the full quantity of the present poison then, to enemys who themselfes also spread the full quantity of theyr shared poison PER SPORE. That's the whole trick.

I tested that last night and it wasn't impressive. I will show you later today exactly what it accomplishes and it's never "full quantity of poison" its 25% that supposedly scales with power strength and that alone is unreliable. Your conjecture versus my proof is all you have.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

24 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I tested that last night and it wasn't impressive. I will show you later today exactly what it accomplishes and it's never "full quantity of poison" its 25% that supposedly scales with power strength and that alone is unreliable. Your conjecture versus my proof is all you have.

"Proof"

Mechanic:

25% of the innitial damage that triggered each individuall poison procc addet to the blast and spread per spore.

 

Lets say you have 4 poison proccs on a enemy:

1x full poison x9 which is spread to enemys in the surroundings.

9x poison-> x9 spread to the surroundings

81x poison x9 which is spread to the surroundings. 

729x poison x9 which is spread to the surroundings...

What is this? Pride? The urge to be right? You call evrything i said conjecture while you tested it and admit that the mechanics work and you still deny theyr existance and effect.

[Epsik-kun]

I wait for the day, when Saryns sell their crappy Nikanas Prime and will actually crit-build Dual Ichors.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[ThatOddDeer]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

"Proof"

Mechanic:

25% of the innitial damage that triggered each individuall poison procc addet to the blast and spread per spore.

 

Lets say you have 4 poison proccs on a enemy:

1x full poison x9 which is spread to enemys in the surroundings.

9x poison-> x9 spread to the surroundings

81x poison x9 which is spread to the surroundings. 

729x poison x9 which is spread to the surroundings...

What is this? Pride? The urge to be right? You call evrything i said conjecture while you tested it and admit that the mechanics work and you still deny theyr existance and effect.

It doesn't work that way though. if it did, toxic lash would be decimating enemies through sheer damage yet in my video slash procs killing everything. I tested it and your 729x effect isn't happening, it just doesn't happen and that's where you're wrong. The toxin procs don't stack like that. It stack linearly. Spores combine the toxin procs on a target for the burst damage of a spore, so that only happens once and that decides the damage of the toxin proc which is only 50% of the burst damage and spores only transmit toxin from a target once until a new toxin proc is applied, so the idea of using hikou with concealed explosives doesn't work(and while toxin torid would you're using toxin against armor, enjoy dealing next to no damage). So if we follow this math formula you get 25% of the toxin procs + spore damage, then that's cut in half again to 12.5% of the burst damage.

Let's take my highest crit I saw with my dragon nikana at 6023 damage, times .3 for toxic lash to get the toxin bonus, rounded to 1807,reduce that by about, lets be conservative , 90% and that gets you 181 damage, cut in half for the proc 90 damage over 11 seconds. Now if you proc that 20 times and red crit each time that's 1800 damage over 11 seconds to all nearby targets. Woohoo, I will deal at least double that with each melee swing. This is the calculation if I concentrate all the poison on a single target. If I get an ideal situation I might get 4-5 targets but then it's 9000 damage over 11 seconds and it never gets higher than that. this isn't exponential, this is a linear growth pattern that is shafted harder than my conservative 90% estimate.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I wait for the day, when Saryns sell their crappy Nikanas Prime and will actually crit-build Dual Ichors.

I have crit dual ichors, if you watched my video you would have seen them. They perform well but fall off harder than nikana prime with weeping wounds. Eventually it takes 30+ corrosive procs to shred armor, whereas slash proc damage can be made to deal 8x damage very easily and ignores armor due to being finisher damage. You trade the ultimate scaling power and utility, mobility and AoE of nikana prime for marginally better singe target dps for the first 60 minutes of a survival.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

It doesn't work that way though. if it did, toxic lash would be decimating enemies through sheer damage yet in my video procs killing everything. I tested it and your 729x effect isn't happening, it just does happen and that's where you're wrong. The toxin procs don't stack like that. It stack linearly. Spores combine the toxin procs on a target for the burst damage of a spore, so that only happens once and that decides the damage of the toxin proc which is only 50% of the burst damage and spores only transmit toxin from a target once until a new toxin proc is applied, so the idea of using hikou with concealed explosives doesn't work(and while toxin torid would you're using toxin against armor, enjoy dealing next to no damage). So if we follow this math formula you get 25% of the toxin procs + spore damage, then that's cut in half again to 12.5% of the burst damage.

Let's take my highest crit I saw with my dragon nikana at 6023 damage, times .3 for toxic lash to get the toxin bonus, rounded to 1807,reduce that by about, lets be conservative , 90% and that gets you 181 damage, cut in half for the proc 90 damage over 11 seconds. Now if you proc that 20 times and red crit each time that's 1800 damage over 11 seconds to all nearby targets. Woohoo, I will deal at least double that with each melee swing. This is the calculation if I concentrate all the poison on a single target. If I get an ideal situation I might get 4-5 targets but then it's 9000 damage over 11 seconds and it never gets higher than that. this isn't exponential, this is a linear growth pattern that is shafted harder than my conservative 90% estimate.

Once, per swing, as lash litteraly popps one spore per swing. Popp more, spread the poison, return it by not attacking one but multiple targets and you have this multiplicator. All you proove is that it has linear growth how you play it, what's kinda obvious as it's intendet to do so.

 

Just placing torid clouds would immediatly reflect this damage what makes the linear growth a curve, probably the most effective way to play it.

 

Yeah, she does need work, i give you that. Molt needs iron skin scaling and propper aggro to cover her better but that's about it.

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Once, per swing, as lash litteraly popps one spore per swing. Popp more, spread the poison, return it by not attacking one but multiple targets and you have this multiplicator. All you proove is that it has linear growth how you play it, what's kinda obvious as it's intendet to do so.

Then admit you're wrong. Admit it's linear growth that doesn't scale. Exponential growth scales and this does not. Also did you not read the part about new toxin procs being needed from things that aren't spore? That's very important. You need to hit a target with toxic lash to inflict a "new" toxin proc, the best weapons that can hit more than 5 targets are hammers with crushing ruin, heavy blades with cleaving whirlwind and orthos P with primed reach( which isn't efficient for endgame) so anything more than 5 targets can be discounted. What I proved is the maximum potential of toxin stacking in the most efficient way possible with an ideal build specialized against armored units in order to test your hypothesis which turned out to be false. My video and the math proves you wrong, at this point you're sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalala I can't hear you" and that does not add anything constructive to the discussion.

[Epsik-kun]

13 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I have crit dual ichors, if you watched my video you would have seen them. They perform well but fall off harder than nikana prime with weeping wounds. Eventually it takes 30+ corrosive procs to shred armor, whereas slash proc damage can be made to deal 8x damage very easily and ignores armor due to being finisher damage. You trade the ultimate scaling power and utility, mobility and AoE of nikana prime for marginally better singe target dps for the first 60 minutes of a survival.

>Not using True Steel on Ichors
>Not realising that proc chance has diminishing returns
>Not using Ichors' OP ground finisher
>Not understanding the absurd difference between x4+ Nikana and x4+ Ichors.

Right.

[Ivan_Rid]

27 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Then admit you're wrong. Admit it's linear growth that doesn't scale. Exponential growth scales and this does not. Also did you not read the part about new toxin procs being needed from things that aren't spore? That's very important. You need to hit a target with toxic lash to inflict a "new" toxin proc, the best weapons that can hit more than 5 targets are hammers with crushing ruin, heavy blades with cleaving whirlwind and orthos P with primed reach( which isn't efficient for endgame) so anything more than 5 targets can be discounted. What I proved is the maximum potential of toxin stacking in the most efficient way possible with an ideal build specialized against armored units in order to test your hypothesis which turned out to be false. My video and the math proves you wrong, at this point you're sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalala I can't hear you" and that does not add anything constructive to the discussion.

Thats why I asked to try Atterax, its a really nice weapon if you have 2 spare formas and primed reach, but sadly its redcrit-bodycount build has no spare mod space for Gas, so the only source of toxin procs in Toxic Lash. Dual Ichors can do multiply toxin procs per hit (gas AoE and Lash), but are lacking range..

I wish Scoliac was purely elemental whip.

I at least hope that Damage 3.0 DoT procs would be based on combined element damage, and not weapon base damage, that would make Saryn functional, as as of now even redcrit multipliers are not enough to make Toxin procs viable.

edit: Well, viable according to those sky high standarts set by Excaliburs and the like. I`m still having a load of fun running Hieracon with Saryn.

edit2: I have no idea what is this sorcery but I do kill 20 Heavy Gunners 115lvl just as fast with Gas Dual Ichors as I do with Corrosive Dual Ichors. Difference is 2-5 seconds with no solid lead.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Ivan_Rid

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

I wait for the day, when Saryns sell their crappy Nikanas Prime and will actually crit-build Dual Ichors.

 

52 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

>Not using True Steel on Ichors
>Not realising that proc chance has diminishing returns
>Not using Ichors' OP ground finisher
>Not understanding the absurd difference between x4+ Nikana and x4+ Ichors.

Right.

Ichors are boring, though. /opinion

[ThatOddDeer]

47 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Thats why I asked to try Atterax, its a really nice weapon if you have 2 spare formas and primed reach, but sadly its redcrit-bodycount build has no spare mod space for Gas, so the only source of toxin procs in Toxic Lash. Dual Ichors can do multiply toxin procs per hit (gas AoE and Lash), but are lacking range..

I wish Scoliac was purely elemental whip.

I at least hope that Damage 3.0 DoT procs would be based on combined element damage, and not weapon base damage, that would make Saryn functional, as as of now even redcrit multipliers are not enough to make Toxin procs viable.

edit: Well, viable according to those sky high standarts set by Excaliburs and the like. I`m still having a load of fun running Hieracon with Saryn.

edit2: I have no idea what is this sorcery but I do kill 20 Heavy Gunners 115lvl just as fast with Gas Dual Ichors as I do with Corrosive Dual Ichors. Difference is 2-5 seconds with no solid lead.

I have tried the atterax, no video of it atm, but it feels slightly weaker than the truly top tier melee. Also gas melee + saryn does well on Hieracon because infested units are the most disposable in the game and the light infesed are weak to gas. 

As to your sorcery, you were probably getting quite a few slash procs from swirling tiger's knockdown into slash procs from the ground finisher. On a gas nikana prime versus my corrosive nikana prime It's about 20-30 hits less with my corrosive and that saves quite a few seconds. This gap gets bigger as enemiess get more and more armor and slash and corrosive procs continue to scale when gas does not.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

11 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Then admit you're wrong. Admit it's linear growth that doesn't scale. Exponential growth scales and this does not. Also did you not read the part about new toxin procs being needed from things that aren't spore? That's very important. You need to hit a target with toxic lash to inflict a "new" toxin proc, the best weapons that can hit more than 5 targets are hammers with crushing ruin, heavy blades with cleaving whirlwind and orthos P with primed reach( which isn't efficient for endgame) so anything more than 5 targets can be discounted. What I proved is the maximum potential of toxin stacking in the most efficient way possible with an ideal build specialized against armored units in order to test your hypothesis which turned out to be false. My video and the math proves you wrong, at this point you're sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalala I can't hear you" and that does not add anything constructive to the discussion.

Your video that litteraly showed nothing and your tests and math that consist of you attacking singletargets. Yea

 

But hey, who am i to argue against valid claims. Poison needet to reset the SPREAD alongside the burst is something i ve yet to test.

What would happen when you shoot torid bullets hitting approximately 4 enemys while you attack a single enemy with lash on a build that takes this into consideration?

Lash: 75% poison - 37,5% dot

Spores 50% 

Attacking the target with lash would spread a minimum of 3 spores per hit.

Lets go with a stronger weapon as the lash percentage does more. One hit that spreads poison would set 37,5% weapon damage, immediatly explode for additional 37,5% on the 3 enemys outside and spread 9x 18,75%...lets say the torid actually ticks according to your weapons speed...

Your primary target now has 37,5+18,75x3 % worth poison on him. Evry other enemy 18,75x 4

93,75% worth dot on the primary target and 75% worth dot on the others. 

The second hit would set additional poison, blow for 37,75+93,75% x2-> 263% and spread 131,5%, immediatly blow for 131,5+75% x2 - 413% and spread 206,5%

Each enemy now has 

263+206,5x3% and 206,5% x4 poison on them.

882% and 826%...

 

Should i continue? I'm not gonna claim that i've tested it but this example is scaling in consideration of the mechanics you claimed it has. 

Poison to reset

Explodes for 50% of the innitial damage, for 100% dot, sets dot for 50% of this damage.

Not taken into consideration: the spore on explosion has next to the definitive spread part a status chance for eather viral or poison status. Poison status would widen thus base even more, viral double it once.

 

This example is subideal of course as there's hardly occasions where you fight 4 enemys. Softer scaling, harder spread. Concept stays the same.. the scaling part is not for discussion as that one is clearly wordet in the wiki.

 

Sooo...what did you say exatly? 

 

Lets assume you're right

*Still not linear

*you're still playing it wrong

*Still scales exponential