Saryn's DPS

[Rambit23Z]

3 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Nobody uses Saryn as melee frame outside of shadow step cheese at higher levels

I do without Naramon, just thought I'd let you know.

[ThatOddDeer]

18 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

I do without Naramon, just thought I'd let you know.

But it's already been said that your build has next to nothing to do with what saryn offers in the first place. It's just a solid melee build that works on any frame.

[Djego27]

20 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

I do without Naramon, just thought I'd let you know.

I can see the point on drako, where a gas mios slide attack into a few targets is like casting miasma and kills more or less everything within 37m. I also did use it to kill some ancient healers at L140+ simply because non of my other AOE weapons did any reasonable damage against them.

I used Ember for the 1000 paper cut event for solo melee runs with the prisma dual cleavers. It is just as fast as using a CL dagger with Inaros, that is how much damage you actually bring(accelerant, blood rush, body count and 3x melee counter does deliver quite a punch). Saryn in comparison would be less single target but with the AOE what would be overall ok, however without CC you get 1 hit by rollers and other stuff all the time(this was even so bad with Ember that I just used my Rino prime with the Ortos prime in the end).

Did you finish solo runs in the Event or do higher level melee only runs with Saryn?

Edited April 7, 2016 by Djego27

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

But it's already been said that your build has next to nothing to do with what saryn offers in the first place. It's just a solid melee build that works on any frame.

Yes. (Almost any frame)

I just wanted to let him know that not everyone's Naramonically inclined.

1 minute ago, Djego27 said:

I can see the point on drako, where a gas mios slide attack into a few targets is like casting miasma and kills more or less everything within 37m. I also did use it to kill some ancient healers at L140+ simply because non of my other AOE weapons did any reasonable damage against them.

I used Ember for the 1000 paper cut event for solo melee runs with the prisma dual cleavers. It is just as fast as using a CL dagger with Inaros, that is how much damage you actually bring(accelerant, blood rush, body count and 3x melee counter does deliver quite a punch). Saryn in comparison would be less single target but with the AOE what would be overall ok, however without CC you get 1 hit by rollers and other stuff all the time(this was even so bad with Ember that I just used my Rno with the Ortos prime in the end).

Did you finish solo runs in the Event or do higher level melee only runs with Saryn?

I was still in the "Inaros hype" moment, so I used him instead. Solo btw.

I did get insta-killed by a roller once too, but Inaros' passive got me back up.

And I also didn't feel like putting in the effort at the time. Non Naramon Saryn requires relatively high focus to no die. Still my favourite frame, though.

[Djego27]

Just now, Rambit23Z said:

I was still in the "Inaros hype" moment, so I used him instead. Solo btw.

I did get insta-killed by a roller once too, but Inaros' passive got me back up.

And I also didn't feel like putting in the effort at the time. Non Naramon Saryn requires relatively high focus to no die. Still my favourite frame, though.

The rollers have the same bug as kavats, by having a insane amount of attacks during the animation(at least for rollers it is a lot less consistent, even if I still got killed with 3.2k ferrite armor on a rino while activating life support in 0.5s).

Ember would have been a very good frame for the event without that bug, because it can kill extreme quick what makes life support no issue and survivability at L50 is still quite good if you know what you are doing. The reason I did end up with Rino is that you can do revives in public games or just your own kubrow(what was next to impossible with Ember), you can recast a 5.2k ferrite armor(that is not a life insurance with the bug but much better then on most other frames) and roar + viral orthos prime will get the job done. It is not the fastest single target weapon but it did kill rollers before they could hit you and did handle all other stuff reasonable well.

[Djego27]

I most likely have even less than that.

Was the old saryn effective and requested for a lot of low level farming? Yes it was. Was it interesting to play? No, absolutely not.

Is the new Saryn more interesting? Honestly no, it does not provide a more interesting use. Only exception would be if you consider aiming with a hiku prime or Ignis in the general direction of stuff that should die as the all end of dps frame game play. Then again you could call Ash with a radiation weapon to disable healers with aiming at one target for 18 armor ignore kills very interesting 1h into void solo survival(and trust me it is not).

I seen the L2P a lot in other games and it comes mostly from people that are absolute terrible at the game. I mean serious, Saryn requires like zero aim, player skill(because there is no sufficient CC or debuff mechanic that makes use of it) or any kind of fancy stuff, it is not a player skill based frame. It is actually my main complaint that player skill hardly matters because that AOE damage weapons do nothing against single targets at high levels with the current toxic lash and the lack of CC makes you a easy one hit kill if you don't press 4 ever 3s(that is even worse then when people called Ember absolute trash).

[ThatOddDeer]

 

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

-snip-

I seen the L2P a lot in other games and it comes mostly from people that are absolute terrible at the game. 

-snip

Thank you as well. 

it's not like the hours I spend in the simulacrum every day should count towards my stats anyways. That would probably force my stats way higher for saryn

[PikeOrShield]

4 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Your're killing mostly weak enemies and armored ones with slash procs. Saryn's kit isn't doing anything for you, just red crit melee and dual sword ground finishers

Also frames should not be balanced around augments

Weak enemies?  The ones he spawned in simulacrum are level 150 and you can see him dropping several level ~200 enemies in the background of the last screenshot using spores+toxic lash.  The best part is he's killing them without even touching them.

"Saryn's kit isn't doing anything for you" <-- Really?  Just....

"Also frames should not be balanced around augments".  These are just buzzwords from the forums.  You can't use Venom Dose on yourself and he was clearly going solo in all the media.  Just because he enjoys an augment does not mean he needs it as a crutch.

@Nesisphira Keep up the good work, I'm really impressed.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

This thread is like watching a game of never ending ping pong. There's such a thing as a debate, but those usually end with one party understanding and accepting the other parties information or both parties acknowledging their differing opinions and leaving it at that.

I'm almost positive the devs has seen this thread and understand everyone's point. 

Now that being said I'll go ahead and throw my own Saryn opinions in here as to at least being something to the table.

one comment I keep seeing in here is that a Warframes kit should not be determined by its weapons. Why? Where does this logic come from?

1. It makes many weapons that most people wouldn't use useful. If the Saryn rework weren't active then why would someone (except the exceptional few) use a Hikou Prime over a Spira Prime?

2. Adds something new to Warframe beyond the usual. In fact if like to see more Warframe abilities make use of weapons.

Another criticism I see is that Warframes kit should not be based around augments. I can do just fine without augments. 

Also, as I stated before Saryn's kit is based around mass debuff, not mass murder, though if you do it right, you can get many, many kills. Saryn is a team player. 

That being said there are some tweaks id like to see done to her. 

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, PikeOrShield said:

Weak enemies?  The ones he spawned in simulacrum are level 150 and you can see him dropping several level ~200 enemies in the background of the last screenshot using spores+toxic lash.  The best part is he's killing them without even touching them.

"Saryn's kit isn't doing anything for you" <-- Really?  Just....

"Also frames should not be balanced around augments".  These are just buzzwords from the forums.  You can't use Venom Dose on yourself and he was clearly going solo in all the media.  Just because he enjoys an augment does not mean he needs it as a crutch.

@Nesisphira Keep up the good work, I'm really impressed.

In those pictures of him slaughtering high level enemies you can see the slash procs on them. Those ignore armor and are the main strength of dual swords in endless play. In the video he only has 1 meaningful unit, a level 135 the heavy gunner, which he dispatches with a ground finisher, which inflicted slash procs that got turned into critical slash procs because the unit was knocked down. That can be done with any warframe and is not a direct result of saryn's anything.

[Rambit23Z]

Quote

In those pictures of him slaughtering high level enemies you can see the slash procs on them. Those ignore armor and are the main strength of dual swords in endless play. In the video he only has 1 meaningful unit, a level 135 the heavy gunner, which he dispatches with a ground finisher, which inflicted slash procs that got turned into critical slash procs because the unit was knocked down. That can be done with any warframe and is not a direct result of saryn's anything.

Quick question about those critical bleeds. Do you know exactly what causes it to happen? Because I tend to get fairly inconsistent results.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Rambit23Z
Wrong quote

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

This thread is like watching a game of never ending ping pong. There's such a thing as a debate, but those usually end with one party understanding and accepting the other parties information or both parties acknowledging their differing opinions and leaving it at that.

I'm almost positive the devs has seen this thread and understand everyone's point. 

Now that being said I'll go ahead and throw my own Saryn opinions in here as to at least being something to the table.

one comment I keep seeing in here is that a Warframes kit should not be determined by its weapons. Why? Where does this logic come from?

1. It makes many weapons that most people wouldn't use useful. If the Saryn rework weren't active then why would someone (except the exceptional few) use a Hikou Prime over a Spira Prime?

2. Adds something new to Warframe beyond the usual. In fact if like to see more Warframe abilities make use of weapons.

Another criticism I see is that Warframes kit should not be based around augments. I can do just fine without augments. 

Also, as I stated before Saryn's kit is based around mass debuff, not mass murder, though if you do it right, you can get many, many kills. Saryn is a team player. 

That being said there are some tweaks id like to see done to her. 

The ping pong is more like me providing video evidence that she is not working as intended and having people say "No you're wrong" without providing any of there own.

The demonstration of using dual swords, specifically dual kamas prime with their slash damage, invalidates his proof because slash procs ignore armor and is a strategy any frame can employ rather than something unique to saryn.

[ThatOddDeer]

Here's more proof that something is certainly fishy with saryn's kit. I'm using the lanka, one of the most damage single target guns in the game, to try and proc gas on these heavy gunners. Look at that pathetic DoT, the lanka could do so much better. Even with spore the damage should have been higher due to the bouncing of all the toxin procs no?

Had I modded for corrosive instead, instead of a 736 red crit, I could have had an over 10k red crit. Much more efficient for killing these heavies which is what's important in warframe as they can have more than 20x the eHP of light units.

[PikeOrShield]

3 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

In those pictures of him slaughtering high level enemies you can see the slash procs on them. Those ignore armor and are the main strength of dual swords in endless play. In the video he only has 1 meaningful unit, a level 135 the heavy gunner, which he dispatches with a ground finisher, which inflicted slash procs that got turned into critical slash procs because the unit was knocked down. That can be done with any warframe and is not a direct result of saryn's anything.

Your ignoring all of the enemies dying around him though.  Yes he kills the heavy unit with mostly melee, but all the other enemies are killed of by spores.  Slash procs cannot be carried by spores and even if they were, that would just be a boost to Saryn's credibility.  How many warframes can just melee one enemy and kill the surrounding crowed with minimal effort?

If your point is that it's not killing a bunch of heavy units as well, then I'd have to say that that's a bizarrely high standard since no other warframe is judged that way.  He also said his power-strength was around 200% (so +60ish% melee damage) and the HG was viral proced with spores, so he actually killed it much faster than the majority of warframes could without any special gimmicks like opening units up to finishers or exalted weapons.

[Rambit23Z]

5 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

-Snip-

Hey, you seem to have missed my question(due to me mis-quoting) so I'll ask again.

Do you know exactly what causes the critical bleeds to happen? Because I tend to get fairly inconsistent results.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Rambit23Z

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, PikeOrShield said:

Your ignoring all of the enemies dying around him though.  Yes he kills the heavy unit with mostly melee, but all the other enemies are killed of by spores.  Slash procs cannot be carried by spores and even if they were, that would just be a boost to Saryn's credibility.  How many warframes can just melee one enemy and kill the surrounding crowed with minimal effort?

If your point is that it's not killing a bunch of heavy units as well, then I'd have to say that that's a bizarrely high standard since no other warframe is judged that way.  He also said his power-strength was around 200% (so +60ish% melee damage) and the HG was viral proced with spores, so he actually killed it much faster than the majority of warframes could without any special gimmicks like opening units up to finishers or exalted weapons.

I have one warframe that does saryn's whole debuffing thing better than she could ever dream of. Banshee. No finishers. No exalted weapons. Makes every slash proc deal 8x damage with silence. Base 5x damage multiplier on sonar and with an augment, since we all love to throw those around, 100% armor strip on an ability that doesn't even make sense to shred armor. 

Killing heavy units is the absolute goal of endgame because you run out of life support before you can kill them if you're not endgame viable. So many frames have a way to be endgame viable in their kits alone and don't require extensive modding elsewhere to make sure they can do that.

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

Hey, you seem to have missed my question(due to me mis-quoting) so I'll ask again.

Do you know exactly what causes the critical bleeds to happen? Because I tend to get fairly inconsistent results.

First the damage source can't be from a power, at least for saryn that's what it seems like, so that cuts out toxic lash, and has to be some sort of DoT. Slash procs and toxin procs from gas work best here

Second, the enemy must be in an unalerted state, the most reliable way of achieving this is banshee's silence, radial blind, prism, sleep arrows and wukong's cloud walker.

Third ,the enemy must be in this state while the DoTs are ticking on them.

Finally, you can trick the enemy into being unalerted by using aerial slams and certain combos, such as many of those on heavy blades stances and blind justice. I find it more reliable to use an aerial slam followed by a fast hitting combo (my favorite being blind justice's guiding light) and then turning on channeling as the enemy bleeds. This gets me the most amount of critical bleed procs on average and channeling increases their damage by 50% without any energy cost.

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

First the damage source can't be from a power, at least for saryn that's what it seems like, so that cuts out toxic lash, and has to be some sort of DoT. Slash procs and toxin procs from gas work best here

Second, the enemy must be in an unalerted state, the most reliable way of achieving this is banshee's silence, radial blind, prism, sleep arrows and wukong's cloud walker.

Third ,the enemy must be in this state while the DoTs are ticking on them.

Finally, you can trick the enemy into being unalerted by using aerial slams and certain combos, such as many of those on heavy blades stances and blind justice. I find it more reliable to use an aerial slam followed by a fast hitting combo (my favorite being blind justice's guiding light) and then turning on channeling as the enemy bleeds. This gets me the most amount of critical bleed procs on average and channeling increases their damage by 50% without any energy cost.

Just tested against a level 130 heavy gunner and I managed to get on tick of crit-bleed (28k damage) with Toxic Lash active.

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

Just tested against a level 130 heavy gunner and I managed to get on tick of crit-bleed (28k damage) with Toxic Lash active.

Are you sure it was not a slash proc? Try with a weapon incapable of slash procs, such as the bo prime.

Make sure it is not modded for gas because gas procs can trigger it as well

Edited April 7, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[PikeOrShield]

2 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

First the damage source can't be from a power, at least for saryn that's what it seems like, so that cuts out toxic lash, and has to be some sort of DoT. Slash procs and toxin procs from gas work best here

Second, the enemy must be in an unalerted state, the most reliable way of achieving this is banshee's silence, radial blind, prism, sleep arrows and wukong's cloud walker.

Third ,the enemy must be in this state while the DoTs are ticking on them.

Finally, you can trick the enemy into being unalerted by using aerial slams and certain combos, such as many of those on heavy blades stances and blind justice. I find it more reliable to use an aerial slam followed by a fast hitting combo (my favorite being blind justice's guiding light) and then turning on channeling as the enemy bleeds. This gets me the most amount of critical bleed procs on average and channeling increases their damage by 50% without any energy cost.

Come on, stop trolling him.

8 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

Hey, you seem to have missed my question(due to me mis-quoting) so I'll ask again.

Do you know exactly what causes the critical bleeds to happen? Because I tend to get fairly inconsistent results.

Critical bleeds are like normal bleed procs.  You just need crit and trigger a slash proc on the melee attack.  Crit chance and status chance factor in, so having a melee with high, crit, status, and slash, like the Dual Kamas Prime helps.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Slash_Damage

Here's what you need to know from the wiki:

Spoiler

 Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage, which bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances.

If the proc occurs off of a headshot or critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier and/or headshot multiplier respectively.

 

[Rambit23Z]

Just now, PikeOrShield said:

Come on, stop trolling him.

Critical bleeds are like normal bleed procs.  You just need crit and trigger a slash proc on the melee attack.  Crit chance and status chance factor in, so having a melee with high, crit, status, and slash, like the Dual Kamas Prime helps.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Slash_Damage

Here's what you need to know from the wiki:

  Reveal hidden contents

 Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage, which bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances.

If the proc occurs off of a headshot or critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier and/or headshot multiplier respectively.

 

Then how come only one tick did that damage?

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

Then how come only one tick did that damage?

I'll get you a video real quick.

[Rambit23Z]

Just now, ThatOddDeer said:

I'll get you a video real quick.

Alright, thanks.

[Shuuro]

1 minute ago, PikeOrShield said:

Come on, stop trolling him.

Critical bleeds are like normal bleed procs.  You just need crit and trigger a slash proc on the melee attack.  Crit chance and status chance factor in, so having a melee with high, crit, status, and slash, like the Dual Kamas Prime helps.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Slash_Damage

Here's what you need to know from the wiki:

  Reveal hidden contents

 Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage, which bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances.

If the proc occurs off of a headshot or critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier and/or headshot multiplier respectively.

 

What you're thinking of, and what Deer explained are two completely different things. The Critical Bleeds he's referring to, are bleeds applied to an enemy that is unaware of you, as well as being unaware of targets around them. The easiest way to achieve this, is like said before, are skills that force enemies into an un-alerted state. Radial Blind being one of the most common, and easiest to replicate.

[Rambit23Z]

Got a double one (23k x2) with Corrosive Dual Ichors. Only source of DOT was from Toxic Lash's toxin.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Rambit23Z