Saryn's DPS

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, kitsu said:

Oh no, I was never referring to the ones grouped up in the middle. Not at all. See this is where max range gets interesting because I can actually observe the effects of the gas proc well beyond its aoe range. This is the damage that is carried over by the spores themselves.

So try this. Max range build. Enemies in the far middle. Cast spore. Fire lanka and make sure it procs gas. If it does not, reset and try again. Once a gad proc occurs, stop shooting and look at the enemies on the far left or far right.

My tests show that 1 gas proc will travel to every enemy within range of the first spore popped by the gas proc. What is interesting is any enemies that died to the gas proc carried by the spore will ALSO infect any non proc enemies with spore and a completely refreshed gas proc, albeit weaker too, seems this effect has a 1/3 reduction in tic damage if done this way. But no matter what I do, it will always be 10 tics of damage. Not even continuous misery can extend it, which honestly, I think it should.

My video proves otherwise.At two points in the video the gas proc does not spread to the side groups even when i DO have max range, I showed myself changing to it in the video. One time it only spreads to the right side and gives 3 toxin procs at 1771. The other time it affects both groups on the sides but neither have toxin procs.

[kitsu]

8 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

My video proves otherwise.At two points in the video the gas proc does not spread to the side groups even when i DO have max range, I showed myself changing to it in the video. One time it only spreads to the right side and gives 3 toxin procs at 1771. The other time it affects both groups on the sides but neither have toxin procs.

That is what I am trying to tell you, in your video your duration is at 73 duration, which only gives about 6-7 seconds of duration on the spores themselves. My build gives me 20 seconds of spores that I can continuously refresh. The short duration on your build chokes any potential gas procs and toxin procs that toxic lash gives.

My tests repeatedly shows that the maximum number of toxin tics that occurs when a spore is popped and the toxin spreads, is at maximum 10 tics. or 10 seconds of toxin damage.

I even tested this on eximus corrupted heavy gunner and it is still always 10 tics with a duration build of 150%

Edited April 10, 2016 by kitsu

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, kitsu said:

That is what I am trying to tell you, in your video your duration is at 73 duration, which only gives about 6-7 seconds of duration on the spores themselves. My build gives me 20 seconds of spores that I can continuously refresh. The short duration on your build chokes any potential gas procs and toxin procs that toxic lash gives.

My tests repeatedly shows that the maximum number of toxin tics that occurs when a spore is popped and the toxin spreads, is at maximum 10 tics. or 10 seconds of toxin damage.

The thing is that the toxin procs aren't even lasting 8.76 seconds, .73 of 12 seconds, so my duration isn't even a factor when the proc only lasts 3 seconds. 20 seconds of duration doesn't do anything for you is what we're essentially both saying in different words. Ideally you'd have an 11 second long spore so that you get all 11 seconds of toxin proc. Continulously refreshing my spores doesn't take more than 1-2 seconds so I can get away with lower duration. My video contradicts your evidence, and I'm sure you're trying your best to keep the test as error free as possible, but I need to see evidence from your side as well to make a more refined judgement. It's 3:30 am here and I am getting very tired so I will have to coninue this later in the day when I am more refreshed. That should give you plenty of time to provide proof of a toxin proc Consistently lasting the full 11 seconds and 10 procs on all targets in the simulacrum because I was able to spread spores that way but the toxin proc remained elusive.

[kitsu]

4 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

The thing is that the toxin procs aren't even lasting 8.76 seconds, .73 of 12 seconds, so my duration isn't even a factor when the proc only lasts 3 seconds. 20 seconds of duration doesn't do anything for you is what we're essentially both saying in different words. Ideally you'd have an 11 second long spore so that you get all 11 seconds of toxin proc. Continulously refreshing my spores doesn't take more than 1-2 seconds so I can get away with lower duration. My video contradicts your evidence, and I'm sure you're trying your best to keep the test as error free as possible, but I need to see evidence from your side as well to make a more refined judgement. It's 3:30 am here and I am getting very tired so I will have to coninue this later in the day when I am more refreshed. That should give you plenty of time to provide proof of a toxin proc Consistently lasting the full 11 seconds and 10 procs on all targets in the simulacrum because I was able to spread spores that way but the toxin proc remained elusive.

That is what I don't get. I even dropped my duration to 100% and I still got all 10 tics of toxin damage from the enemies standing to the far left and far right. If you really believe what your video shows is absolute, I shall get one together tomorrow to show you what happens.

Your build is great for saryn's 3rd ability, but hardly works well with her 1 due to duration and range.

You are defiantly right about one thing for saryn, her synergy with her abilities is completely broken. It is best to just mod for one of her abilities than her entire kit.

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, kitsu said:

-snip-

You are defiantly right about one thing for saryn, her synergy with her abilities is completely broken. It is best to just mod for one of her abilities than her entire kit.

Last response for the night.

And that goes against everything a synergy frame is supposed to represent. All abilities being perfectly functional and worth casting the whole mission alone but multiplicatively more impact when used together. The new mag seems to be the perfect synergy frame, all abilities amazing alone but godlike together

[Ivan_Rid]

I really dont get why everyone tries to slap that primed continuty on Saryn. Refreshing the Spores is trivial, hell, teammates do it for you all the time.

If theres another hidden mechanic that forces Saryn to fit duration in her builds.. I feel like I`m done with her.

[ThatOddDeer]

4 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

I really dont get why everyone tries to slap that primed continuty on Saryn. Refreshing the Spores is trivial, hell, teammates do it for you all the time.

If theres another hidden mechanic that forces Saryn to fit duration in her builds.. I feel like I`m done with her.

well since I'm still awake ducat farming for a cape let me respond to this simply.

I've been done with saryn since they first removed spore for venom and then the rework brought spore back. Learning all the hidden mechanics of saryn and learning all her bugs has killed my hope for her at the moment. The two things keeping me going are my love of her and her rework's confirmed revisit from devstream 61. When that revisit will be might as well be Soon TM but it's hope nonetheless

 

[-CM-Hekovashi]

If my team need a debuff frame-i'll take nova, if there a place for second one-il take banshee. Miasma need a huge buff, both damage and CC wise, molt need snowglobe treatment with a guarantee aggro draw. CC is what this game all about at exact this point, and saryn has none of it, whis is kinda dumb for support-debuff frame. And no, miasma is not a CC skill-MP, bastille, stomp, pocket sand this is what CC should look like.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Hekovashi

[Ivan_Rid]

Only way to feel like a debuff frame is to grab a Radiation-Cold Ignis with maxed status, range, firestorm and Continious Misery. It does no damage, but provides CC and pops spores. Killing is done with Secondary, like Staticor or Hikou, or melee. Its pretty fun ocassionaly.

[Djego27]

12 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

You wouldn't even need corrosive proc then. It would take a maximum of 2 casts to strip even the most armored enemies I know of.

This is something I can get behind as well.

Well that would be 2 casts to remove all armor within 37.5m permanently. .

My frost does 28% for 11.4s within 28.5m in my T4 build, since the focus is simply duration for CC reasons. If we do a 251% powers strength build while keeping the required 190% range this gives us only 8s and put the efficiency down to 85%, what means you can't recast avalanche or snow globe between EV casts what would not be a practical solution for high level defence. The only way around that would be dropping Icewave impedance, what I never would consider, since the mod is what makes frost incredible good in high level defence for CC.

My Trinity got 100% armor removal within 23m, applied to only 3 units, while you also can have the link on units without armor, so it is wasted till they get killed. Blessing duration is only 15s and EV only reaches 28.75m. Numbers are with the arcane helmet for duration.

Ash with seeking shuriken would be 9.5s in my build, single target and you would have to lower something else for that.

Mag in a high level build would be would be 41.4m for a 50% armor removal, lasting about 1 second. If you add some duration it would be 30.5m while still keeping the 200% power strength for SP with a duration of about 6.2s. Numbers are with the arcane helmet for range.

It would be massively better then all of them. Even on Mag where it could be viable if it would scale with power strength, you would spend 50% of your time in the crush animation, unable to do much else.

[Ivan_Rid]

2 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

It would be massively better then all of them.

And this is not a bad thing, in any way.

[Djego27]

10 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

And this is not a bad thing, in any way.

Armor is a bad mechanic.

- It scales multiplicative instead of additive like shields with health, creating the biggest amount of EHP.

- It got the weakest counter. Even with 75% armor removal per single corrosive proc(it does 25% currently ingame) it would still take 3 times the procs you need in magnetic(where you need 2, 3 at most) to remove shields that in itself are only 10% of the EHP barrier to begin with, compared to the current 10 times. Because of this also only a hand full of weapons in the hole game can be considered as a workable status solution beyond L100 against it, because you need a incredible amount of procs(150 ish on a IPS weapon with 2 elements).

- It got 2 HP types with ferrite and alloy, what do require vastly different builds to do damage outside that few corrosive status weapons, where magnetic + toxin will work on nearly every weapon against any shielded target, with the exception of again high level armored corpus units.

- Shields can by bypassed with toxin(what works well enught with bows that you will not need magnetic at all even at L100+), armor only by finisher damage(what also bypasses shields).

It is a bad mechanic, since it scales badly and should be reworked altogether without buffing abilities to handle it for specific frames, because this would help everybody and would be much better for the game, while the last thing would only help Saryn while leaving everybody else with the same problem.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Djego27

[alergiclaprosti]

5 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Armor is a bad mechanic.

 

I've been saying this for some time now.

Not only is Armor a bad mechanic for enemies, it's also bad for warframes because of practically the same problem.

• On enemies: Because of the way it stacks, you, usually, need to take down, through corrosive procs or other mechanic, more than 90% to feel the difference in damage.
  • example: a lvl 80 Bombard has 5733 armor (giving it ~95% damage reduction). if you take down 90% of that, it will have 573 (meaning 65% damage reduction). So, you need to take down 90% of it's armor ( 9 corrosive procs ) to make the bombard still resist 65% of your damage.

 

• On warframes: Because of the low max HP values you need to stack extremely high amount of it to actually make a difference.

 

Basically no warframe can gather enough armor to reach 90% damage reduction and still be able to deal damage. And if you don't have at least 90% damage reduction you can't sortie level enemies without cheating death team comps.

 

An a lot of people here don't even see the elephant in the room. You talk about lvl 80 to 100 Heavy Gunners and maybe Napalms, but nobody seems to remember another type of enemy. What about high enough level Sentients? Ok you can't find a lvl 100 sentient yet, but we will find them.

Edited April 10, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[ThatOddDeer]

3 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

-snip-

Basically no warframe can gather enough armor to reach 90% damage reduction and still be able to deal damage. And if you don't have at least 90% damage reduction you can't sortie level enemies without cheating death team comps.

 

 

I can agree with all your points but the one above which has 1 exception. Cold chroma can achieve thousands of armor and tons of damage through cold elemental ward and vex armor alone.

Edited April 10, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[Rambit23Z]

12 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I can agree with all your points but the one above which has 1 exception. Cold chroma can achieve thousands of armor and tons of damage through cold elemental ward and vex armor alone.

And Inaros has the health to get high EHP.

[alergiclaprosti]

12 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I can agree with all your points but the one above which has 1 exception. Cold chroma can achieve thousands of armor and tons of damage through cold elemental ward and vex armor alone.

I haven't tested, but I have reasons to think that the armor amplification doesn't take in account Steel Fiber (Varkyr's Warcry doesn't) so you kinda need a lot of power strength to reach 90% damage reduction. You most probably are right though.

6 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

And Inaros has the health to get high EHP.

Inaros was supposed to be mentioned there, but I must have edited it out by mistake.

[blaes]

9 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

I haven't tested, but I have reasons to think that the armor amplification doesn't take in account Steel Fiber

actually, depends what we're talking about.

cold elemental ward's armour bonus is based on the raw armour from the frame (350 for chroma), without steel fiber. and it stack additively with the base armor affected by steel fiber.

vex armour's bonus is multiplicative with everything (and affected by power strength).

the formula goes : total_armour = base_armour * (1 + steel_fiber + elemental ward * power_strength) * vex_armour * power_strength

the max you can reach (299% power strength and max steel fibre) is max_armour = 350 * (1 + 1.1 + 1.5 * 2.99) * 3.5 * 2.99 = 24 119

a bit over 24k armour (or 98.77% damage reduction). along with a *6.23 damage multiplier. enjoy.

[ThatOddDeer]

Back to the subject of saryn. Would changing the blocking bonus to armor increase or flat DR like eclipse and link make more sense?

[blaes]

@ThatOddDeer: I think it would. That's the change I would like the most on saryn atm.

[ThatOddDeer]

@blaes

But which one? Also what about making it not bad to kill an enemy with toxic lash because right now it suffers the spore pentalty for killing a target or letting the energy return scale? Also not allowing it to remove the last spore from an enemy so its not anti-synergistic.

Spore is 99% fine. It just needs to be fixed to allow smaller toxin procs to matter because right now only the lanka and tonkor deal enough to overcome its bug

Then how do we fix molt? Pretty much exclusively used for regen molt and as a source for cheaper spores. I'd like to see a 2-4 second invulnerable period where it can't die as opposed to gaining hp. Also making it inherit saryn's current aggro and make it's aggro range scale with range would be suitable buffs.

Also miasma. Let it's CC scale with duration mods and not be dependent on enemy type while also introducing armor shred? It's old flavor text referenced melting armor and it's a corrosive blastwave. If avalanche can do it so should miasma

Edited April 11, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[blaes]

Oh sorry. I meant damage reduction @link/eclipse. Saryn's armour isn't high enough to see a real difference unless the boost is humongous.

 

I also agree with the rest of what you say.

A few seconds of invulnerability for molt when it reaches 2hp (kinda like quick thinking) would let us combo it better with miasma. All aggro from monsters in range should be instantly shifted to molt.

 

As for miasma, give it a fire blast treatment. Casting it puts down a corrosive cloud that will stay up where you cast it for some time (double current duration with half current damage per tick), ticking down damage to enemies inside and blinding them. Change the augment to make it apply a guaranteed corrosive proc on all enemies hit by a damage tick.

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, blaes said:

-snip-

As for miasma, give it a fire blast treatment. Casting it puts down a corrosive cloud that will stay up where you cast it for some time (double current duration with half current damage per tick), ticking down damage to enemies inside and blinding them. Change the augment to make it apply a guaranteed corrosive proc on all enemies hit by a damage tick.

I really can't advocate for an augment to apply corrosive procs, because 1 it would become nigh-mandatory and 2 corrosive procs are currently inferior to % max armor shred.

Until damage 3.0 buffs corrosive proc, and hopefully reduces it's strength against all factions, I will staunchly prefer % max armor like avalanche and all the armor shredding augments

[blaes]

Good point. I don't really have anything else to say about saryn now.

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, blaes said:

Good point. I don't really have anything else to say about saryn now.

The blind could be an augment though. To give melee Saryn's some single target damage. (Assuming it's the kind of blind that opens up for finishers)

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

The blind could be an augment though. To give melee Saryn's some single target damage. (Assuming it's the kind of blind that opens up for finishers)

I could see that, a blind on miasma as the gas blurs vision and an augment that would make enemies blinded by miasma take increased damage. Like radiant finish/savage silence.