U19 will be a turning point... or will not.

[Rakosta_Kai]

@p3z1 

I haven't read the comments in this post so mine may be redundant.

The gap you are concerned with is time.

The gap has always been time.

The gap is still time.

I don't even see the gap as longer now, tbh... old Hydroid and Mesa will still probably take the cake on that front (actually Chroma now too with what it takes to get a specific Saryn part).

It's not a new condition, they just managed to pair it up with a new Prime. For my part, I expected something like this to happen with building new prime offerings and I am surprised they didn't do it sooner tbh. Not saying I agree with it, but I am not surprised by it.

Don't blame the players that buy prime access for that as they aren't even in the equation for grinding and aren't a guidepost for comparison.

[Nijyumensou]

8 minutes ago, DxAdder said:

Either you have the time to farm want or you trade/buy the plat to get it.

If you think the grind is too much then I guess it's time to move on to a different game.

 

This should be the answer to all F2P player whine. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Nijyumensou

[p3z1]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

@p3z1 

I haven't read the comments in this post so mine may be redundant.

The gap you are concerned with is time.

The gap has always been time.

The gap is still time.

I don't even see the gap as longer now, tbh... old Hydroid and Mesa will still probably take the cake on that front (actually Chroma now too with what it takes to get a specific Saryn part).

It's not a new condition, they just managed to pair it up with a new Prime. For my part, I expected something like this to happen with building new prime offerings and I am surprised they didn't do it sooner tbh. Not saying I agree with it, but I am not surprised by it.

Don't blame the players that buy prime access for that as they aren't even in the equation for grinding and aren't a guidepost for comparison.

Yes, technically time is the problem.

No, I am not mad at PA buyers (read last part of OP).

3 minutes ago, Nijyumensou said:

This should the answer to all F2P player whine. 

So I can't suggest things or state out problems to make the game better?

This isn't a whine thread, this is a discussion. Feedback, maybe, but we ARE discussing about the current state of the game yes?

4 minutes ago, XenoFant said:

I know, and I didn't want to blame the people buying this stuff. My complaint is directed to DE. They have to equalize the game more. Of course should the ones who pay have a slight advantage, like cosmetics, because they definitely don't progress the game. Rather a little advantage like having access to the parts, but still have to build them and farm the ressources.

 

 

I will probably get a lot of hate for saying this, but I don't care!

Just make grind = reward, and alertium alerts longer, and that's one problem solved.

Edited May 18, 2016 by p3z1

[Nijyumensou]

8 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

So screw casual players? That's what I am reading. Extending Nitain a bad idea? Easing the grind a bad idea? This is what I am reading from your post.

Grinding is normal in this game, yes that's given, but increasing dilution isn't the way to go.

 

7k oxium is fine.

 

No problems with Prime Access, only with prime vault and the unnecessary wall that is alertium and diluted tables.

Maybe an optional subscription is fine, but what would players be rewarded with? Will it screw over F2P more?

 

Nothing else to play :|

Till now, you have not produce plausible win-win situation between DE and the player 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Nijyumensou

[DxAdder]

The grind HAS to be at a certain level or they don't make any money.

Don't be fooled F2P was never meant to be 100% free, at some point you will have no other choice but to obtain plat.

 

 

[notlamprey]

Some thought I've posted elsewhere: DE is testing its playerbase, and our ability/willingness to grind instead of paying up.

Warframe is full of closely-studied numbers, and you'd better believe that having Packaged Goods people (Sumpo) as investors has injected some of their ethos into the game. That's not a jab at DE; it's a cold hard fact of business - and human - relationships.

I've mentioned before that I'm not opposed to DE "testing" us, as long as they can be subtle about it and show us that they do care about not abusing this game and its players. DE have not been subtle at all, and the end result is that a lot of players feel insulted. Gosh, I wonder why? We feel manipulated, measured, taunted.

On the point of grind, there is a point at which we no longer feel compelled to grind. For everyone, there is a steepness of grind which will cause them to just stop, look at it and say "Nah. Next game." DE are depending on the sunk cost fallacy (we've already invested in this game; it's hard to walk away from that investment) to keep a lot of players around, but I'd encourage the ones who are put off by all this new resource grind to just leave. If you aren't enjoying your time with the game, leave. For your own sake, just go.

Games aren't supposed to be a second job, and many of us veterans are only staying ahead of grind creep because we have the arsenals to let us do everything as efficiently as possible. It just isn't in the cards for everyone, and if you aren't having fun, I'd really encourage you to go play a game you do find fun in. Life's too short and too mean to waste time hate-playing.

[KiteoHatto]

11 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Farming smart doesn't solve bad RNG or bad luck. Also, if you do get to buy Vauban prime from trade chat, will an unlucky person get all the nitain he needs?

This is coming from a person that has only gotten 1 nitain within 4 days.

Playing and planning smartly alleviates bad RNG and luck somewhat.

It's not as if nitain is just released and only paying players can get Vauban p. Did you really not have the time to play just enough to catch some alerts here and there ever since nitain was released ?

If you didn't dedicate enough time to the game to catch the alerts then that's on you, and not completely DE(i say that because they could be longer for dead times in the night for those weird timezones).

Did you not look in your storage and see that your oxium is a bit low and the correct action was to go and farm for it on cerberus ?

Do people even check what resources they have and what they need more of or they just midlessly run voids and draco for mastery(other than afking in dojos and relays) ?

 

As for nitain, you just have to wait.

Vauban was hard to get, you'd think vauban prime should be harder! It's not even a frame for new players.

[Guest]

"Thank DE for being the most ethical company on the market where 90% of the content can be access within the game"

"F*** YOU DE !! how dare you charge me anything for playing the game you developed!"

 

If there is anything, I think they are giving us over-satisfaction, I would support them to make more difficult grinds in the future so more people have to feel "forced" to buy their prime access and stuff. 

[Doctor_Grayfield]

7 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

1. Dilution means putting unnecessary stuff in favor for more important stuff. Examples include having a LOT of cores in sorties, over getting useful stuff (like potatoes), R5 cores in T4 Survival, and having a lot of stuff in Rotation C while having next to none in Rotation A and B (as you stated).

2. I have no problems with paying players. I'm just showing that DE is favoring paying players more, while ignoring the casual playerbase. "Hardcore" players are screwed by RNG as well, but have time to burn to compensate.

In that case, I can get behind your point that dilution is bad, yes.

I think I've got the gist of this thread now:  While Prime equipment is seemingly getting harder to acquire by non-paying players, it's still just as accessible as it's always been for paying players.  Okay.  Yes, I can see how that is frustrating from your perspective.  What can be done about it is another subject entirely though.

[Jerakl]

Agree with most, if not all points.

 

Goob job OP

[Guest]

3 hours ago, LordCloud00 said:

Grind is bad. But you must consider they are selling the vauban set for real money. Already is hard for me to understand someone who buy something which can be freely obtained in the game.... but who do you think would ever buy a prime set which is easy to acquire? 

 

[KiteoHatto]

9 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Nothing else to play :|

Hoooold on a sec....

That just sounds like something a person with too much time would say.

So, you can't be bothered to keep up with the nitain alerts through an app, but you also can't be bothered to play the game and there is nothing else that you could be playing out there ? Seriously ? =|

[p3z1]

9 minutes ago, Nijyumensou said:

Till now, you have not produce plausible win-win situation between DE and the player 

Because this is discussion, and not feedback. In feedback, I find myself compelled to give sugeestion. In discussions, I can't think of a good one, so I let other people speak their mind on the situation.

 

7 minutes ago, kiteohatto said:

Playing and planning smartly alleviates bad RNG and luck somewhat.

It's not as if nitain is just released and only paying players can get Vauban p. Did you really not have the time to play just enough to catch some alerts here and there ever since nitain was released ?

If you didn't dedicate enough time to the game to catch the alerts then that's on you, and not completely DE(i say that because they could be longer for dead times in the night for those weird timezones).

Did you not look in your storage and see that your oxium is a bit low and the correct action was to go and farm for it on cerberus ?

Do people even check what resources they have and what they need more of or they just midlessly run voids and draco for mastery(other than afking in dojos and relays) ?

 

As for nitain, you just have to wait.

Vauban was hard to get, you'd think vauban prime should be harder! It's not even a frame for new players.

1 - You admit yourself that RNG is a hard thing to solve, and can partially be solved with "smart planning/playing."

2 - I have no problems with oxium. If I did, I'd run other missions that are not redundant.

3 - Just in case you use point 2 against me for grinding, I'd say bad dilution, because I have a knack of getting R5 cores in T4 rotation Cs and a bunch of orokin cells in rotation A-B. I rotate between missions whenever I can, but I end up with things unneeded. As an example, I was farming Odonata Prime Wings for 2 weeks now, spending one hour runs every day. I only get cores.

 

7 minutes ago, Valteria. said:

"Thank DE for being the most ethical company on the market where 90% of the content can be access within the game"

"F*** YOU DE !! how dare you charge me anything for playing the game you developed!"

 

If there is anything, I think they are giving us over-satisfaction, I would support them to make more difficult grinds in the future so more people have to feel "forced" to buy their prime access and stuff. 

I said the former, not the latter.

I have nothing against PA, only against the grind and time-wall that is alertium.

 

3 minutes ago, kiteohatto said:

Hoooold on a sec....

That just sounds like something a person with too much time would say.

So, you can't be bothered to keep up with the nitain alerts through an app, but you also can't be bothered to play the game and there is nothing else that you could be playing out there ? Seriously ? =|

Nope, because I don't spend on games unless I find them spend-worthy.

From my extra 20-40m of steam searching for games, none have caught my eye.

 

7 minutes ago, Windspike said:

In that case, I can get behind your point that dilution is bad, yes.

I think I've got the gist of this thread now:  While Prime equipment is seemingly getting harder to acquire by non-paying players, it's still just as accessible as it's always been for paying players.  Okay.  Yes, I can see how that is frustrating from your perspective.  What can be done about it is another subject entirely though.

Hence this thread was set up, so people with better ideas can speak up.

Edited May 18, 2016 by p3z1

[XenoFant]

Just now, kiteohatto said:

Hoooold on a sec....

That just sounds like something a person with too much time would say.

So, you can't be bothered to keep up with the nitain alerts through an app, but you also can't be bothered to play the game and there is nothing else that you could be playing out there ? Seriously ? =|

There is a fatal mistake I see there.

According to you the player should respond to the game's development. The game works this way and the players have to adjust to it?

That's BS!

The game should respond to the players, not vice versa. A game's supposed to satisfy the player. They should be fun to play. If the player HAS to make the game fun and playable on his own, we are certainly in the wrong direction.

[Ghogiel]

 

For most people, money isn't some magical thing that just exists from nothing. Excluding the trust fund and moms credit card players, everyone else is farming $ with time or in game stuff with time. I don't think anyone has worked out a conversion rate for the time/avg pay in various countries vs time/grind to see if/when/where free players or paying players are getting the worse end of the deal. 

 

54 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

I

 

You answered it yourself. You don't need bad, weighted RNG to make people pay for the game. Some players are willing to shell out dosh for cosmetics and some PA because they support the DEvs.

 If the RNG was higher for the rare drops, they wouldn't be as rare, supply would increase and market price would drop. Free players would get less plat from the market, and paying players wouldn't need as much plat, so wouldn't buy as much.

 

There is no getting away from the fact WF market is artifically biased for a reason.

[_jorgi_]

2 hours ago, CapAllan said:

Thought I'd just drop this here.

LOL LOL LOL

Yes, exactly. This movie shows why people are so ....ed.

And what's more they have no alternatives (except buying for real money which is not real alternative for most of the time), they can't go elsewhere to be really rewarded and happy.

Happiness is limited - this is the WF problem.

 

And I don't believe U19 will be turning point, there will be probably something interesting and new (positive) but also new problems (negative) so sooner or later we will arrive at the very same point.

Only strength of DE is that they are hearing the community and can react on time. Release patches and updates constantly.  If they continue that even more than it might work for years.

Edited May 18, 2016 by _jorgi_
forgot to be on topic :P

[p3z1]

Just now, Ghogiel said:

If the RNG was higher for the rare drops, they wouldn't be as rare, supply would increase and market price would drop. Free players would get less plat from the market, and paying players wouldn't need as much plat, so wouldn't buy as much.

I never said buff drops of rare parts, I said something on the lines of "remove unnecessary junk from rotations."

You probably remember a time when Rotation C guaranteed a prime part, what happened to it now?

[notlamprey]

Agree with some points specifically, but mostly the general mood of the OP.

Some folks are of the opinion that those of us voicing our concerns are just complaining for its own sake, and that simply isn't true. How often does DE say one thing and do another? Assuming that they are not evil people, the logical explanation is that they want to follow through on their speech but the reality of making a game prevents them from doing that.

I think it's only appropriate that the playerbase mirror what we get from DE, which is to make our voices heard decisively whenever we are concerned about the game. I would say more, but I don't want to tip my hand to DE and ruin the value of our feedback channels. Let it suffice to say that I like the analogy of a boulder on a slope: it's much easier to prevent the boulder from rolling in the first place than it is to stop the boulder in motion.

I provide feedback with the intent of holding that boulder for the players who aren't here on the forums: the people just out there having fun, not participating in any of this stuff. Maybe they simply aren't aware it exists, or maybe that's a part of the game community they just don't have any interest in. Whatever the cause, they deserve representation and protection. I like to believe that the little we do here does make Warframe a better game for those of us not on these forums.

[XenoFant]

1 minute ago, p3z1 said:

I never said buff drops of rare parts, I said something on the lines of "remove unnecessary junk from rotations."

You probably remember a time when Rotation C guaranteed a prime part, what happened to it now?

DE noticed that players have a way too easy access to those parts and didn't want the players to be happy, hence they removed them and force them to pay.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, polarity said:

The amount of time you have to play is entirely down to your life choices.  Responsible adults accept the consequences of their choices, including giving up some things in favor of others.

Yep. If people really want something they'll pursue it. They adopt an attitude of goal setting, and even if it's 30 minutes a day, they'll get it done; or just have fun doing something else, and soon enough, they'll have 100,000 mats passively.

Just play the game and enjoy it.

[(PSN)Amon37]

Everytime I see a forma BP in Rot C of a T4 surv,,,ugh, at least make it fully built.

[p3z1]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Amon37 said:

Everytime I see a forma BP in Rot C of a T4 surv,,,ugh, at least make it fully built.

Ever got a pack of R5 cores in a T4 Survival? That's probably worse.

 

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Yep. If people really want something they'll pursue it. They adopt an attitude of goal setting, and even if it's 30 minutes a day, they'll get it done; or just have fun doing something else, and soon enough, they'll have 100,000 mats passively.

Just play the game and enjoy it.

How can you enjoy a game if it is rewards =/= difficulty.

Edited May 18, 2016 by p3z1

[Ghogiel]

Just now, p3z1 said:

I never said buff drops of rare parts, I said something on the lines of "remove unnecessary junk from rotations."

You probably remember a time when Rotation C guaranteed a prime part, what happened to it now?

I remember. It certainly was a lot easier to get frost prime when he was the only thing in the void lol

Void drops have been a bit of mess for a while imo. If they gave a guaranteed prime at RotC it wouldn't increase my odds of getting anything I need unless the weighted drops go as well. But maybe for new players it would make any difference :shrug:

[KiteoHatto]

6 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Nope, because I don't spend on games unless I find them spend-worthy.

From my extra 20-40m of steam searching for games, none have caught my eye.

So you don't find warframe spend worthy, yet you like it enough to care about latest shinies ? I honestly don't understand that. If you really can't find anything to play at all then you have pretty high standards that clearly warframe offers, since you still care to play it and write on forums....

4 minutes ago, XenoFant said:

There is a fatal mistake I see there.

According to you the player should respond to the game's development. The game works this way and the players have to adjust to it?

That's BS!

The game should respond to the players, not vice versa. A game's supposed to satisfy the player. They should be fun to play. If the player HAS to make the game fun and playable on his own, we are certainly in the wrong direction.

It's your choice to keep playing the game, developers set how the game is to be played and at what pace, it's YOUR decision to stick with it or find a new game if you don't agree. Developers aren't obliged to adjust the game to your every whim.

[(PSN)SupeBoss]

As a wallet-warrior (I've spent well over $1k on this game in the past year alone) I agree with you, but the model that they are using is quite fair. There should be a gap between the two since it is a FTP game.
Yes, there is a gap. And yes, the gap is widening.

HOWEVER

The issue that I have is that the things they say and the tactics they use are very misleading. DE is one of the best studios in the industry for it's interactions with players, and they just keep shooting themselves in the foot.

The single most ridiculous example of this is when they say things like "we don't want to dilute the drop tables." Why, oh why, would you ever say this.
Nevermind the fact that you can make the rotations ABCD instead of AABC
Nevermind the fact that there are credit caches, packs of uncommon cores, orokin cells, and other, for the lack of a better term, "reward placeholder" items in the drop tables
Nevermind the fact that you can add a T1-T3 interception as OP mentioned
You see where I'm going with this....

Adding Nezha to sorties - at the time it was a blatant cash grab, now it has come back to dilute the sortie rewards, as they are now pretty much trash rewards for end-game content.

Hunhow's Gift was another cash grab (at the time at least), making a weapon obtainable only by giving up one of - if not the - best weapon in the game. Which, at the time, happened to come fully built - with potato. Then if you wanted to go back to it, you'd have to farm a rare boss to get the BP....then give the thing you just built back up

Increasing the grind, time walls, and RNG to buff the prices of things on trade chat (and up the appeal of buying market items/PA) while at the very same time saying they want to reduce it.

They would be in a much better place if they were just a bit more open with their business strategies. Trying to get players to spend money in a free to play game is NOT a sin, but they keep skirting around it like it is. When they say these things, it give the players a right to call them out or be upset. They're opening themselves up for criticism that is entirely unnecessary.