Buff The Kraken, Or Nerf The Kunai

[cary2010haha]

And yet you still think damage...

 

Kraken are very powerful...

is it? what situation that Kraken can handle but lato with same mod can't? but if a target that Kunia hard to kill , Kraken will nearly get no hope.

[Xylia]

i don't think in game have something faster than roller, and i see many player can hit roller by use kunia. In long range, AI always trying to get cover, and Kunia's 100% accuracy is very very easy to score a hit(even headshot)

 

I see players doing that too, except...

 

1). Sometimes they spam kunais... taking 5+ to finally hit the thing and kill it,

2). They wait for the ball to get hung up on terrain, or to be moving towards/away in a straight line,

3). Just plain get lucky,

4). Wait until they're in close range to negate the drop in trajectory.

 

Meanwhile, anybody can hit a roller with a Kraken. Just wait until the ball is in your crosshair, pull trigger, and BLAM. Dead ball. As long as your crosshairs were on it when you clicked, you got a hit.

 

And enemies taking cover? Of course they're easy. But then that's with ANY weapon. My boltor, for example, will annihilate something taking cover. So will a Bolto.

 

Speaking of a Bolto, it has more than double the firing rate of a Kunai, and does more DPS (because of the double firing rate), but uses twice as much ammo while keeping the same armor ignore property.

 

If you go Akbolto, you get ~2-2.5x DPS of a Kunai, though with 1/4th the ammo conservation.

 

Is it suddenly overpowered now, too?

[Enomilli]

is it? what situation that Kraken can handle but lato with same mod can't? but if a target that Kunia hard to kill , Kraken will nearly get no hope.

Kraken can snipe better and not out DPS but destroy things with much more ease because hitscan...

 

Kraken are just more versatile while Kunai are just strong...

[Xylia]

The point here is...

 

Kunai are not overpowered, they have weaknesses. Is it a powerful and competitive weapon? Heck yes. Does it have weaknesses? Oh yes.

 

Kraken is a powerful gun. It is very much a competitive weapon. It has weaknesses. It has strengths.

 

Neither gun should be nerfed, and I don't really think either one needs a buff either. Which one is better is subjective to the player, as they have different playstyles. I actually own both a Kraken and a Despair. I'm familiar with their uses and playstyles, and I'd have to say, well.......I keep both for a reason.

[cary2010haha]

I see players doing that too, except...

 

1). Sometimes they spam kunais... taking 5+ to finally hit the thing and kill it,

2). They wait for the ball to get hung up on terrain, or to be moving towards/away in a straight line,

3). Just plain get lucky,

4). Wait until they're in close range to negate the drop in trajectory.

 

Meanwhile, anybody can hit a roller with a Kraken. Just wait until the ball is in your crosshair, pull trigger, and BLAM. Dead ball. As long as your crosshairs were on it when you clicked, you got a hit.

 

And enemies taking cover? Of course they're easy. But then that's with ANY weapon. My boltor, for example, will annihilate something taking cover. So will a Bolto.

 

Speaking of a Bolto, it has more than double the firing rate of a Kunai, and does more DPS (because of the double firing rate), but uses twice as much ammo while keeping the same armor ignore property.

 

If you go Akbolto, you get ~2-2.5x DPS of a Kunai, though with 1/4th the ammo conservation.

 

Is it suddenly overpowered now, too?

they are not   "100% accuracy" and akbolto didn't do fully Automatic fire, and many ppls know Semi-Automatic weapon in warframe couldn't do it's max fire rate.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Cary2010haha

[cary2010haha]

Kraken can snipe better and not out DPS but destroy things with much more ease because hitscan...

 

Kraken are just more versatile while Kunai are just strong...

actrully Kraken weak in snipe because it's burst fire, even lato do better, and kunia with 100% accuracy snipe on fixed target is even better than a bow.

[Lord.Finster]

The Kunai are just too good compared to the other weapon. Is true is everyone choice...but most of the time..people choice are OP weapon and will protect them at all cost. Maybe making them Semi auto instead of full auto? Would make more sense.

NO!!!

Plz. for the love of everything thats good, no more semi-automatic bullS#&$!

 

Kunai/Despair can be easily balanced by reduced firing rate/longer throwing animation.

 

I would really love to use the Kraken as I like the look but the fact that i have to click once per shot takes all the fun from the gun.

I really, really want to keep my finger pressed down on the button until the enemy dies and not have to click 3 times per enemy.

[Enomilli]

actrully Kraken weak in snipe because it's burst fire, even lato do better, and kunia with 100% accuracy snipe on fixed target is even better than a bow.

I've used a Kraken for a long time...

 

Fire Rate mod at max allows for both shots to hit the same place before the kick...

 

Please...don't say what you do not know...

[Aggh]

You asked me to tell you how Kunai are not overpowered...

 

I did...and now that I've done it you insult me...?

 

Typical for the loser of an internet debate...

 

I'm done with you...

 

You're not worth the effort...you call me bad because I know the weaknesses of the weapons I possess...?

 

By knowing the weakness of Kunai I can use them far more effectively than you ever could...especially since you did not know their weakness...

 

If knowing the weakness of a weapon means I'm terrible...then this world is really more pitiful than I thought...

 

I truly am done with you...people like you do anything for a low blow or a last meaningless attempt to save face or appear to be the victor...

I'm asking you to prove that it's not better than just about everything.  And your proof is meaningless easy to compensate for projectile drop that no one has any real problems aiming with. 

 

I'm not sure what else I'm suppose to draw from the fact that you think projectile drop is a balancing factor.  It's mind numbingly easy to compensate for at all relevant ranges so all I'm taking from this conversation is that you don't know what you're talking about.  Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Aggh

[Baigan]

both of them have 45 base damage, but kunai have armor ignore.

Isn't a armor ignore weapon need to be have a lower base dmage for balance?

 

okay, not just dmage, Kunai even have higher fire rate and fully auto fire system, and Kraken? Most Crap Burst Fire System.

 

and kunia got 100% Accuracy.....can anyone keep throwing rocks and even more Accuracy then keep shooting a gun...

 

Kraken looks like having a bigger clip size, but Kraken could only have 7 "click"

 

and how come the kunai reload so much faster than Kraken.

 

 

 

I don't think a OP weapon make us have more fun, it just Shorten the time of joy we can have.

 

 

Ok, first off, even if it lists 100% accuracy, that's not the reality. Kunai fly in weird patterns after 10 meters or so.

 

Kraken is a hitscan weapon, Kunai has travel time, path deviant AND arc trajectory.

Kraken can crit while the Kunai cannot, it's a common tradeoff in weapons.

 

The thing that people often forget, is that to call something OP you usually set the bar lower than than your target. By comparison The Kraken is OP compared to the Lato. Braton is OP compared to the MK1. The Hek is OP compared to the Strun...

 

So what do you suggest? Nerf all of em and bring em together with an item budget system? Cuz that got boring in World of Warcraft pretty much 5 years ago.

[cary2010haha]

Ok, first off, even if it lists 100% accuracy, that's not the reality. Kunai fly in weird patterns after 10 meters or so.

 

 

Ya...... Kunai fly in weird patterns after 10 meters because at last it'll always drop on the same point, even better than the best sniper in real world and no sniper in Warframe can do this.

 

100% accuracy not meaning only about hit the sight, and also how focus the bullets land.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Cary2010haha

[RunaCarbuncle]

Oh no!

 

The DPS of Kunai is so great considering the enemy is standing completely still and you're landing headshots!

 

Lets not take into account the mods or the fact that the enemies are underleveled right?!

 

You people just don't think at all...

The enemy moving isn't a big deal when your weapon is perfectly accurate and you can move too.

 

The OP here is saying some pretty silly things but it's also accurate that the throwing knives are stupidly powerful.

[Enomilli]

The enemy moving isn't a big deal when your weapon is perfectly accurate and you can move too.

 

The OP here is saying some pretty silly things but it's also accurate that the throwing knives are stupidly powerful.

Of course they are...but they are not overpowered...

[Baigan]

Step 1. Get the Kunai into a Corpus mission.

Step 2. Stand 30meters away from a security camera. Use the targeting to see how far you are.

Step 3. Try to hit the camera.

Step 4. Repeat for about 10 cameras or so and realize that in at least half of those, even tho your aim was dead on, the Kunai missed.

Step 5. Blame the controller.

[Riptose]

Damage vs utility...

i don't think a kraken can handle a wave 50+ varror grineer lancer in one clip, two clip, three clip?

how utility it can be?

What on earth kind of "utility" does any weapon other than melee and a couple of the clan weapons that give any kind of "utility". Guns dont really give utility, they provide different amounts of damage in different situations. 

I have been using Kraken for a while, and I just find the weapon itself not very useful because of it being a burst weapon. Just like the burston, each shot does apply mod damage on both shots, however the jump between each shot is too high to be useful at some medium ranges and almost all long ranges. Also, the delay between each burst just makes the gun much harder to use.  You get more out of having the lex for the range and damage per shot, and more out of the kunai for rapid fire and penetration. Kraken is a burst gun, and as such, isnt very useful in this game due to the jump per shot and the delay between bursts. If anything needs to be changed, its one (or both) of those. 

 

I want to like the kraken, i really do. But as it stands with burst type weapons its just... not very useful.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I'm asking you to prove that it's not better than just about everything.

I've got a better idea. How's about you prove that it is? 'Cuz Kunai are out DPS'd by a whole lot of secondaries (Twin vipers, afuris, aklato, akbolto, probably dual bronco though I've not crunched the numbers on that one), they don't have the range or accuracy of a lex or even a kraken, and they take considerably more skill to use effectively than any other secondary weapon in the game.

I mean, let's look at the actual numbers here for a sec, courtesy of the wiki:

148.5 DPS for kunai, assuming base stats and all shots hit.

280 for afuris assuming the same.

250 for akbolto. With the bolts being faster and not having drop over distance. The only issue is that you'll break your finger trying to achieve that DPS without macros, but that's easily solved by simply making all the semi-auto guns continue firing when you hold down the trigger ala the kunai. Wouldn't affect the DPS any, just save some innocent digits, and it's a much better option than nerfing an already niche weapon that takes skill to use so that it sucks but still takes skill to use.

199.2 for the aklato. ~160 for the single lato. Oh snapple, even the starter gun has more DPS than the kunai! And it's hitscan! Flarghbl OP! Nerf Lato! Nerf it to the ground!

400 for twin vipers. (Single viper still has a very respectable 230, so even that's better than the kunai in terms of straight up DPS.)

But wait, I can hear you ask. What about the kunai's high per hit damage? Wouldn't that mean it'd get proportionally more benefit from hornet strike than these machine pistols? Why yes, that's correct. But you know what gets even more benefit from hornet strike than the kunai? The lex. And you know what the kunai gets less benefit from than machine pistols? M-m-multishot! And, of course, ROF mods.

So yeah. Sounds like this "kunai is superior to everything else" notion is completely wrong.

[Curzyfish]

I've got a better idea. How's about you prove that it is? 'Cuz Kunai are out DPS'd by a whole lot of secondaries (Twin vipers, afuris, aklato, akbolto, probably dual bronco though I've not crunched the numbers on that one), they don't have the range or accuracy of a lex or even a kraken, and they take considerably more skill to use effectively than any other secondary weapon in the game.

I mean, let's look at the actual numbers here for a sec, courtesy of the wiki:

148.5 DPS for kunai, assuming base stats and all shots hit.

280 for afuris assuming the same.

250 for akbolto. With the bolts being faster and not having drop over distance. The only issue is that you'll break your finger trying to achieve that DPS without macros, but that's easily solved by simply making all the semi-auto guns continue firing when you hold down the trigger ala the kunai. Wouldn't affect the DPS any, just save some innocent digits, and it's a much better option than nerfing an already niche weapon that takes skill to use so that it sucks but still takes skill to use.

199.2 for the aklato. ~160 for the single lato. Oh snapple, even the starter gun has more DPS than the kunai! And it's hitscan! Flarghbl OP! Nerf Lato! Nerf it to the ground!

400 for twin vipers. (Single viper still has a very respectable 230, so even that's better than the kunai in terms of straight up DPS.)

But wait, I can hear you ask. What about the kunai's high per hit damage? Wouldn't that mean it'd get proportionally more benefit from hornet strike than these machine pistols? Why yes, that's correct. But you know what gets even more benefit from hornet strike than the kunai? The lex. And you know what the kunai gets less benefit from than machine pistols? M-m-multishot! And, of course, ROF mods.

So yeah. Sounds like this "kunai is superior to everything else" notion is completely wrong.

 

You are taking the dps numbers completely out of context here.  I'm not trying to be pro nerf / buff for the kunai, but if you are going to cite numbers, you need to have some context.  400 burst dps is a pretty meaningless number given how often you'll have to reload vs high level ancients etc. 

 

The fact that kunai ignore armor and are fully auto mean they are basically incomparable to any other seconday (no other secondary is fully auto and fully utilizing semi auto dps with how semi's function in this game... yeah...)

 

I would personally like to see a reload speed reduction on them, but whatever.

[fatpig84]

The fix to this problem is a simple one.

Make all semi autos fully automatic.

 

Then suddenly people will say the AKbolto is overpowered.

Ok never mind >.>

[cary2010haha]

Step 1. Get the Kunai into a Corpus mission.

Step 2. Stand 30meters away from a security camera. Use the targeting to see how far you are.

Step 3. Try to hit the camera.

Step 4. Repeat for about 10 cameras or so and realize that in at least half of those, even tho your aim was dead on, the Kunai missed.

Step 5. Blame the controller.

video prove. Wait so long at start just because the target marker didn't show up, and you can see by kunia's gd accuracy and auto fire you can suppress fire to any target and kill them super quick(i just too focus on making the target mark on the security camera, on the moa dies in second following shot)

 

i can even hit a 100M fixed target by use it! Because Kunia always lands on same place and points, didn't like other guns bullets will have "deviation"

 

http://youtu.be/pFwS3SKZ6W0

[fishworshipper]

Making the Kunai semi-automatic wont solve anything, it'll just make them painful to use.

Considering they're supposed to be a stealth weapon, I have to say that a fire rate nerf would be best.

[cary2010haha]

I've got a better idea. How's about you prove that it is? 'Cuz Kunai are out DPS'd by a whole lot of secondaries (Twin vipers, afuris, aklato, akbolto, probably dual bronco though I've not crunched the numbers on that one), they don't have the range or accuracy of a lex or even a kraken, and they take considerably more skill to use effectively than any other secondary weapon in the game.

I mean, let's look at the actual numbers here for a sec, courtesy of the wiki:

148.5 DPS for kunai, assuming base stats and all shots hit.

280 for afuris assuming the same.

250 for akbolto. With the bolts being faster and not having drop over distance. The only issue is that you'll break your finger trying to achieve that DPS without macros, but that's easily solved by simply making all the semi-auto guns continue firing when you hold down the trigger ala the kunai. Wouldn't affect the DPS any, just save some innocent digits, and it's a much better option than nerfing an already niche weapon that takes skill to use so that it sucks but still takes skill to use.

199.2 for the aklato. ~160 for the single lato. Oh snapple, even the starter gun has more DPS than the kunai! And it's hitscan! Flarghbl OP! Nerf Lato! Nerf it to the ground!

400 for twin vipers. (Single viper still has a very respectable 230, so even that's better than the kunai in terms of straight up DPS.)

But wait, I can hear you ask. What about the kunai's high per hit damage? Wouldn't that mean it'd get proportionally more benefit from hornet strike than these machine pistols? Why yes, that's correct. But you know what gets even more benefit from hornet strike than the kunai? The lex. And you know what the kunai gets less benefit from than machine pistols? M-m-multishot! And, of course, ROF mods.

So yeah. Sounds like this "kunai is superior to everything else" notion is completely wrong.

you missed the accuracy consideration , can twin vipers put 28 bullets in same point at 10M ? but kunia can do it in 10000000M(not even Lex could)

Edited June 16, 2013 by Cary2010haha

[ChaotikDreamz]

Kunai do not need a nerf if anything and it's been suggested before add more drop to the arc so they don't pull super huge range.

 

Kunai are to be stealth meaning pretty much 1 hit kill if it can be pulled off or 2-3 hits in rapid to drop your target before he says ouch "HE'S HERE"

 

nerfing the kunai or despair would just totally ruin their playstyle of being "STEALTH"

 

They are not OP all you people calling for these nerfs are going to be the ones crying again when you can't kill crap when new and higher lvl'd content comes out. I can see it now. "My soso weapons dont kill nothing or do any dmg to these new mobs" do forum search oh look you cried they needed nerfed cuz they ran threw lvl 30 mobs when their fully maxed and modded.

[Rengakun]

you missed the accuracy consideration , can twin vipers put 28 bullets in same point at 10M ? but kunia can do it in 10000000M(not even Lex could)

Even if all 28 bullets don't hit at 10M, at least 14 will. In that case, it would do at least 230 DPS. Bullet spread exists for all weapons, Kunai WILL spread, just like the LEX. And I don't think anyone will try sniping at 10,000KM.

 

Oh, and it's spelled KUNAI -NOT- kunia.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Rengakun

[fatfree]

you missed the accuracy consideration , can twin vipers put 28 bullets in same point at 10M ? but kunia can do it in 10000000M(not even Lex could)

 

Spoken like someone who has never actually used the Kunai or Despair.

 

There are several issues with using the Kunai that decrease its' potential dps:

 

1) No crit.

2) Slow projectile speed.

3) Projectile falls off after some distance.

 

The combination of 2) and 3) make it incredibly hard to get headshots with the Kunai/Despair anywhere closer than mid range, which decreases the potential damage even further. The Kunai and Despair are very strong mid-range (to close range) weapons, but they are pretty damn awful for sniping or any sort of long range shooting. Anyone who claims otherwise has likely never actually used the weapons.

 

Ever tried hitting those little shield bots in the void with Kunai at any decent distance? It's near impossible solo, if you're playing in a group and you're not the host, it becomes completely impossible.

[cary2010haha]

 

Spoken like someone who has never actually used the Kunai or Despair.

 

There are several issues with using the Kunai that decrease its' potential dps:

 

1) No crit.

2) Slow projectile speed.

3) Projectile falls off after some distance.

 

The combination of 2) and 3) make it incredibly hard to get headshots with the Kunai/Despair anywhere closer than mid range, which decreases the potential damage even further. The Kunai and Despair are very strong mid-range (to close range) weapons, but they are pretty damn awful for sniping or any sort of long range shooting. Anyone who claims otherwise has likely never actually used the weapons.

 

Ever tried hitting those little shield bots in the void with Kunai at any decent distance? It's near impossible solo, if you're playing in a group and you're not the host, it becomes completely impossible.

how far you want, there have not many target in WF farer than 44 m, and i am very sure i can hit a 100M target with kunai, Projectile falls but always drop on the same point, just like a real world sniper, but throw a knife should not have this "accuracy"

 

http://youtu.be/pFwS3SKZ6W0

Edited June 16, 2013 by Cary2010haha