Press 4 To Kill Everything!

[Mietz]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I haven't seen anyone "spamming" his 4 in any way other than defense missions (Vauban's cc field).

And that was once. A 50E ability, sure. But a 4? Spamming? I guess I'm missing something as there seem to be a lot of people talking about it.

 

Room-cleaning abilities are somewhat  strange to use imo. You heavily rely on the drop of the orbs. In a small room with like 10+ enemies and some lootboxes, yea, you use the ability and your energy is very likely to be back to max.

 

The problem I think that is being spoken about is another

 

A room full of hard enemies is meant to be a challenge. Should be about positioning, taking out the vital enemies and granting each other cover.

Right now however, you can usually go to these rooms and everyone can use their heavy AoE-Dmg or Stun and actually having cleaned that room faster than the previous ones in which the ult might have not been of too much use.

So the result is:

 

1-3 enemies: drive-by

4-6 enemies: some shooting and stabbing, getting knocked back if you're melee

7-9 enemies: quite some fighting unless someone uses his 4.

 

10-w/e enemies: ulti-by

 

This makes big enemy encounters more like a firework festival, rather than an extreme challenge.

 

I do NOT say "nerf ults they make game easy as trolol", what I say is that big enemy encounters do not do what they are maybe intended to do.

 

 

And by the way. The game is still a beta and as such it needs feedback. So there's nothing wrong with anyone saying what experience they have made so far, no matter their progress or whatever.

 

First things first, Vaubans CC isn't an ultimate, thats Vortex.

 

The fact is that ultimate ability spamming (which exists, a lot) is in fact a problem. Did you ever run a mission with 4 stacked Energy Syphons? You don't have to rely on orbs at that point, especially if your WF is tooled with Streamline and Flow.

I can reliably spam Crush 3 times in a row, no problem. On a normal mission room-clearing abilities are quite efficient. Sure, I'll not waste them on 1-3 enemies but more, sure have a Crush, I can spare the energy.

 

The problem comes with the fact that 4's are crazy good in a normal mission environment but become almost useless past anything comparable to wave 25 on ED. They scale wrong, they are too strong for normal play and too weak for high-lvl play. It also doesn't help that mods like Focus don't -let- them scale. With a maxed Focus (+30%) I can upgrade my Crush by 300 dmg: whoopdee @(*()$ doo (out-healed by any high lvl ancient).

 

There -is- a problem with what you mentioned, but its made only worse by the problem of WF abilities being massively lame and (almost) always following the same pattern.

 

Ultimates should behave differently to normal spammable abilities. I propose a combo-meter you build to unleash your Ultimate. I.e. you have to work for the power you get and use it strategically. Additionally the ultimates should be reworked in accordance to their Warframes, not everything needs to be exactly the same AOE DAMAGE LOLOLOLOL. Out of all 13 Frames the only frames that do not have damage ultimates are Loki, Rhino and Trinity.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Mietz

[Malitias]

First things first, Vaubans CC isn't an ultimate, thats Vortex.

 

The fact is that ultimate ability spamming (which exists, a lot) is in fact a problem. Did you ever run a mission with 4 stacked Energy Syphons? You don't have to rely on orbs at that point, especially if your WF is tooled with Streamline and Flow.

I can reliably spam Crush 3 times in a row, no problem. On a normal mission room-clearing abilities are quite efficient. Sure, I'll not waste them on 1-3 enemies but more, sure have a Crush, I can spare the energy.

 

The problem comes with the fact that 4's are crazy good in a normal mission environment but become almost useless past anything comparable to wave 25 on ED. They scale wrong, they are too strong for normal play and too weak for high-lvl play. It also doesn't help that mods like Focus don't -let- them scale. With a maxed Focus (+30%) I can upgrade my Crush by 300 dmg: whoopdee @(*()$ doo (out-healed by any high lvl ancient).

 

There -is- a problem with what you mentioned, but its made only worse by the problem of WF abilities being massively lame and (almost) always following the same pattern.

 

Ultimates should behave differently to normal spammable abilities. I propose a combo-meter you build to unleash your Ultimate. I.e. you have to work for the power you get and use it strategically. Additionally the ultimates should be reworked in accordance to their Warframes, not everything needs to be exactly the same AOE DAMAGE LOLOLOLOL. Out of all 13 Frames the only frames that do not have damage ultimates are Loki, Rhino and Trinity.

To answer your question whether it's important or not.

Nope, I havent seen that yet and I didn't even know that artefacts can stack. Which is good to know, thx.

(Just started doing lvl 30-40 missions)

 

I totally agree with everything you just said. Everything.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Malitias

[ADDpillz]

Lol @ op. And world on fire is not an Op 4 spamming move? Ive seen embers with Max focus, continuity, and reach clear out xini.

Oh yeah, ember also has one of the largest energy pool available to spam from.

[luanle21]

my combo vs corpus horde on pluto is WOF overheat and fine a nice big horde thats still comming or alive and place a fire blast and walk to each one and give them a pat on the back and walk away as they turn into ashes

[demonaii]

Ive been playing for a while now. First it seemed cool to have a "panic button" that clears the area full of enemies. But now its just lame.

 

To actually have some sort of fun and challenge, i totally MUST go somewhere solo with my Loki. Otherwise its just lame - players race to the biggest group of enemies in order to press 4 and get the kills.

 

So many frames have a powerful ability that can be spammed and deals tons of damage - It kills any need for teamwork and skill.

 

So, how about we do something like these:

 

1) charge your ultimate - hold 4 to start charging and spending energy (if it is interrupted by a knockdown, energy is wasted and no damage is dealt). After some time charging - you release the power and kill everything.

2) make a cooldown for powerful abilities - but i can already see players not entering another room because they have an ability on a cooldown.

3) another difficulty mode with limited number of uses for an ability - if you may only use your Miasma 3 times per mission, you will definitely save it for a tricky situation.

1. No

2. U mad?!

3. What the hell is wrong with you T_T?!?

[Sumnus]

It depends on what you want from the game. If you want to farm defense maps into high levels, you need those kill buttons, and that AOE damage. If you want 'skill' (don't forget, you're still just pressing buttons on a keyboard and mouse), and you'd rather hold down your left mouse button to kill things, you can do that, too. The game is outrageously open ended. There are frames for a lot of playstyles, and more to come. If you don't like kill buttons, don't use them, and play with others who don't use them. It's not hard, that's what I do. I run with cells of 4 snipers.

 

And more importantly, your sacred weapons are still infinitely more powerful than abilities. QQ more.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Sumnus

[Nykxx]

So.

 

The time it takes to cast invisibility a saryn used MIasma.

And you saw Loki wins?

A loki in invisibility can dish out way more damage than any miasma could because of that sweet 200% charge attack damage multiplier. If miasma kills the enemys you are fighting in one shot, they are trash and not worth your time anyway.. so good that saryn pressed 4 and saved you the time and work to kill them individualy. As i said, let the aoe frames have their fun in the lower missions. These abilitys become garbage later on.

[lstalri]

Or how about we get some actually difficult content instead? Wow, I'm a genius!

 

P.S. Every time someone cries "nerf" there a baby getting drowned in a bag. Not a kitty, a baby.

 

 

And not bullet sponge difficult either. We need enemies with powerful 'spells' and weapons that can be dodged, but murder the S#&$ out of you if you don't move fast.

 

Yeah I stopped reading after I saw these 2 posts.  Rather than complaining that things are OP, make more OP targets to use them on.  This can be applied to all the "OP" clan weapons, kunai/despair, etc.  The way I see it, they're harder to get so they're worth the power, all they need is something to use them on.  Give us something to use our OP ulti's, skills, and weapons on (other than endless defense), and people would stop crying for nerf because these items would have a proper place to be used. 

[neKroMancer]

Yeah I stopped reading after I saw these 2 posts.  Rather than complaining that things are OP, make more OP targets to use them on.  This can be applied to all the "OP" clan weapons, kunai/despair, etc.  The way I see it, they're harder to get so they're worth the power, all they need is something to use them on.  Give us something to use our OP ulti's, skills, and weapons on (other than endless defense), and people would stop crying for nerf because these items would have a proper place to be used. 

 

That will just create a bigger gap between weapon and power. What if you don't have these weapons and powers but run into this type of high health/fast regen target? You will not have enough firepower to kill it without them and that's not fun. Sidegrade is the way to run PvE game since the game requires diversity to live, both gameplay and finance aspect. Upgrade will turn this game into RPG progression and that's not what it meant to be. Want to see everyone equip the same loadout in endgame like WoW?

 

What you want will make more trouble in a long run. Personally, changing ultimates into high damage, AOE power with limited use per mission similar to Hyda missile and orther heavy weapons from ME3MP will be a better deal in the future. 

Edited June 19, 2013 by neKroMancer

[lstalri]

That will just create a bigger gap between weapon and power. What if you don't have these weapons and powers but run into this type of high health/fast regen target? You will not have enough firepower to kill it without them and that's not fun. Sidegrade is the way to run PvE game since the game requires diversity to live, both gameplay and finance aspect. Upgrade will turn this game into RPG progression and that's not what it meant to be. Want to see everyone equip the same loadout in endgame like WoW?

 

What you want will make more trouble in a long run. Personally, changing ultimates into high damage, AOE power with limited use per mission similar to Hyda missile and orther heavy weapons from ME3MP will be a better deal in the future. 

Why would a low level player run into a high level enemy who he can't kill?  If that happens, then he's in the wrong location.  As it was before U8 and all this "OP" stuff, things still weren't difficult until about level 80-90 mobs, so even without U8 I would still be pushing for new areas (more than just the t3 keys) to fight higher level, stronger, more dangerous enemies, just for the challenge. 

 

I see what you mean by side-grading instead of upgrading, and the fact that this game isn't supposed to be an RPG, but there are a few issues with that.  What's the reward for weapons that cost so many materials, time, and effort to make?  Obviously they're going to be stronger, which creates a new tier of weapon.  Then people cry that they're OP.  Admittedly this doesn't happen with skills since all frames (currently excluding Vauban) are just about equally as difficult to get (there's almost always somebody to carry you through a public boss run, so no troubles about the bosses level there). 

 

As far as the "clones" set-up goes, all you need to do is create higher tier weapons for every type.  Make more snipers, more bows, more rifles, more heavy machine guns, more pistols, more thrown weapons, more swords, more heavy weapons.  You see my point?  Not only do you open up the doors for more content, you reward players who spend time getting the mastery, materiel, and spend the time making them.  Also, thanks to this games mastery system, you already have half of a fix to the "clones" since everybody is trying to level up different items, so they rarely use the same ones for an extended period of time (until, of course, they start getting content that actually begins to challenge them and force them to use their "good" stuff). 

[Tex77]

I think ults should definitely be on a cooldown. An ability powerful enough to clear a room should be something that the player should have to think about using. Having your ult on a cooldown makes you think "do i really need to use this right now? Or can I work with my teammates and save it for later if needed?" I also agree with having a change in the difficulty level of enemies. You shouldn't have to get to level 80 on a defense mission before the game starts to get hard. I think the combination of ults being on a cooldown and harder enemies in general would encourage people to work together more and maybe, dare i say, use some of those utility abilities? 

[lstalri]

I'd say leave the ulti's where they are and just add the higher level content.  You see a lot of skills drop down in use for their raw damage as you get the higher waves and see what they can actually be used for.  Things like banshee's ulti becomes a stun, not a room clear.  Same goes for frosts ulti, although its stun is extremely short and I get the feeling that frost and mag's ulti's both sort of become useless on the later levels since their damage drops and their stun is so short, and asides from that they really have no utility.  Even volt's ulti would theoretically turn into a stun rather than a DPS ulti. 

 

Miasma is really the only ulti that stays as a pure DPS ulti, but it has such a small range compared to others, it's not as much of a viable option as other ulti's are for a stun and is still primarily used for the pure damage it does, as seen in the videos of clans getting to wave 100-150ish. 

 

But when adding this higher level play, you may need the spam of ulti's to keep up, whether it be for the stuns, the dps, or whatever else the ulti happens to be good for.  It's just at the current max level of play, the spam is OP and annoying. 

Edited June 19, 2013 by lstalri

[BoompigXD]

Or how about we get some actually difficult content instead? Wow, I'm a genius!

 

P.S. Every time someone cries "nerf" there a baby getting drowned in a bag. Not a kitty, a baby.

[neKroMancer]

Why would a low level player run into a high level enemy who he can't kill?  If that happens, then he's in the wrong location.  As it was before U8 and all this "OP" stuff, things still weren't difficult until about level 80-90 mobs, so even without U8 I would still be pushing for new areas (more than just the t3 keys) to fight higher level, stronger, more dangerous enemies, just for the challenge. 

 

I see what you mean by side-grading instead of upgrading, and the fact that this game isn't supposed to be an RPG, but there are a few issues with that.  What's the reward for weapons that cost so many materials, time, and effort to make?  Obviously they're going to be stronger, which creates a new tier of weapon.  Then people cry that they're OP.  Admittedly this doesn't happen with skills since all frames (currently excluding Vauban) are just about equally as difficult to get (there's almost always somebody to carry you through a public boss run, so no troubles about the bosses level there). 

 

As far as the "clones" set-up goes, all you need to do is create higher tier weapons for every type.  Make more snipers, more bows, more rifles, more heavy machine guns, more pistols, more thrown weapons, more swords, more heavy weapons.  You see my point?  Not only do you open up the doors for more content, you reward players who spend time getting the mastery, materiel, and spend the time making them.  Also, thanks to this games mastery system, you already have half of a fix to the "clones" since everybody is trying to level up different items, so they rarely use the same ones for an extended period of time (until, of course, they start getting content that actually begins to challenge them and force them to use their "good" stuff). 

 

Dojo weapons, imo, should deliver weapons with novel mechanics into the game (poison, fire, electricity) while being slightly better in term of stat compared to normal, purchasable weapon.

 

However, in term of progression, both of us have different opinion. I think every weapon should be able to reach endgame not just higher tier. I really appreciate the fact that Braton can brave Pluto with proper mod. IMO, 'higher' tier should be niche weapons, adjusted in stat to create and cater different playstyles while remaining relatively equal or slightly better in stat. Not overtly powerful compared to original set of weapons.

 

Problem with higher stat cloned weapons is the fact that they invite powercreep into the game. While they open door for more content, DE have to create higher and higher level for them since existing areas won't be enough for them. With each update, player will expect newer, better weapons and use the existing clones as standard and new areas to accompany said weapons. A short-lived, non-inventive update of a game.

 

Moreover, delivering this type of upgrades will be a nerf to existing weapons. Imagine a player buy GunA from the market with platinum and after a while GunB with higher stat but the same characteristic and price is in the market with the next update. That player is going to feel cheated (i would) to the point that he/she probably not going to buy anything again. Bad for business.

 

Back to topic.

 

I really don't like damaging ultimates. The reasons have been pointed out all over the topic, scaling. They all scale badly to difficulty, reinforce bad behavior in new player, require a lot of investment to be decent in endgame. What if DE change it into what I previously proposed? An AOE, OHK, heavy weapons with limited number of use per mission. If it's capable of OHK almost everything then it's suitable as an emergency button. However, with four teammates working together - 3-5 use per player will be 12-20 use/team/match. Enough to make a difference in the game and actually able to turn the tide in a pinch and spammable if needed. 

 

Personally, i think the game is fun when there is some sort of limitation that force player to be creative to shine. Currently, Warframe gives player too much power, too much freedom and too little limitation. This results in lack of difficulty and depth in the game and eventually...boredom. 

[fatpig84]

Back to topic.

 

Personally, i think the game is fun when there is some sort of limitation that force player to be creative to shine. Currently, Warframe gives player too much power, too much freedom and too little limitation. This results in lack of difficulty and depth in the game and eventually...boredom. 

 

What ?

Play a Rhino.

 

I don't even slot in Rhino stomp, its useless compared to Bastille.

A rank 4 Radial Blast to knock things down that deals 150 damage after armor.

Sometimes less. 

 

And Iron skin for I dunno, rolling around like a fat sonic when everything is shooting me at Pluto.

I use Charge mostly.

 

 

What power, what freedom ?

I am shoe horned into a tougher typical run and gun FPS hero, who uses Rhino charge as an escape.

Radial blast if I got surrounded (IE im screwed). Iron skin, I dunno, for looking cool or running away as it act as a second shield (at least ranged mobs don't really pursue you and just stand there shooting).

 

 

In fact I am holding off my potato for Rhino until they fix him. 

Edited June 19, 2013 by fatpig84

[CookiesMonsters]

I was expecting a Saryn post heh heh =)

[SisU303]

I'm playing MAG. Usually I'm saving the crush for panic situations (like on defence missions, I hold on to it until/if the enemy reaches the target), but sometimes I like to just rush in to large groups (10 or more) and wipe them off the planet. 

MAG would according to me be useless if his ulti was "nerfed" as I don't really see any use of the other abilities at the moment, but I'm playing lvl 20-50 enemies so that might change(?).

 

I say as many others have said in this thread. Play in a group of people that you enjoy playing with. Take the rushing as an example. I personally don't like players rushing ahead and not waiting for others. So I play with people that don't do that. Pretty simple really.

 

Regards

 

SisU303

[neKroMancer]

I'm playing MAG. Usually I'm saving the crush for panic situations (like on defence missions, I hold on to it until/if the enemy reaches the target), but sometimes I like to just rush in to large groups (10 or more) and wipe them off the planet. 

MAG would according to me be useless if his ulti was "nerfed" as I don't really see any use of the other abilities at the moment, but I'm playing lvl 20-50 enemies so that might change(?).

 

I say as many others have said in this thread. Play in a group of people that you enjoy playing with. Take the rushing as an example. I personally don't like players rushing ahead and not waiting for others. So I play with people that don't do that. Pretty simple really.

 

Regards

 

SisU303

What if Crush can AOE OHK all the way to Pluto but you can use it 5 times per match?

I consider that a buff.

However, this situation isn't about matchmaking, finding players who don't use ultimate is impossible. I use them like everyone else. The problem are..

1. They are mostly ineffective in higher level area.

2. Reduction in difficulty and creating bad behavior through mechanic. Early levels reward the "collect 4 orbs and press 4" cycle and make player oblivious to higher level play where most of ultimates are of no use.

3. Spammming due to the game encourage said behavior in early levels.

As you can see, energy mechanic serves well in regular powers but actually deteriorates the gameplay in case of ultimates. All of us want to use them but they also hinder the game in the same time.

[fatpig84]

What if Crush can AOE OHK all the way to Pluto but you can use it 5 times per match?

I consider that a buff.

However, this situation isn't about matchmaking, finding players who don't use ultimate is impossible. I use them like everyone else. The problem are..

1. They are mostly ineffective in higher level area.

2. Reduction in difficulty and creating bad behavior through mechanic. Early levels reward the "collect 4 orbs and press 4" cycle and make player oblivious to higher level play where most of ultimates are of no use.

3. Spammming due to the game encourage said behavior in early levels.

As you can see, energy mechanic serves well in regular powers but actually deteriorates the gameplay in case of ultimates. All of us want to use them but they also hinder the game in the same time.

 

5 times isn't quite enough if you are going for like wave 25 to wave 30 waves on Outer.

Again balance the games to unlimited defense waves.

 

Because this is the only end game.

Even if update 9 adds in story line, what are you going to do AFTER finishing it ?

 

Back to farming more stuff for exclusive mods no ?

Edited June 19, 2013 by fatpig84

[neKroMancer]

5 times isn't quite enough if you are going for like wave 25 to wave 30 waves on Outer.

Again balance the games to unlimited defense waves.

 

Because this is the only end game.

Even if update 9 adds in story line, what are you going to do AFTER finishing it ?

 

Back to farming more stuff for exclusive mods no ?

To be frank, most of the damaging ultimates aren't useable against anything above lv50-60 without proper modding anyway. If you happen to use Avalanche (no mod) in Pluto, you need to cast it 2 times to kill a mook. I consider turning them into OHK weapon regardless of AI's defense would be beneficial in most situations

IMO, 5 per players are quite plentiful since we have to take standard squad number (4) into account. An entire squad will have 20 ultimates to use for an entire duration of the defense match. Moreover, I don't consider endless defense should be used as core gameplay which we should balance the game around. Why?

- it's endless. At some point, whatever weapon and frame you bring will be useless due to sheer stat of the AI. If you're going to balance the game around progressive AI stat, at which level should the game be balanced? 70? 80? 100? 200? You can't balance the game around this type of game mode since it's a challenge.

As for mod farming, right now Xini is quite enough for farming. My clan has been getting a lot of thunderbolt and other stuffs from this mission around wave 10-20.

[Tsukinoki]

@neKroMancer

While it is true that *most* damaging ults aren't useful around wave 50 or so on defense missions, Saryn aside, some of the CC abilities that those ultimates might have are still very useful. You drop the ability of Loki using Radial disarm down to five and you *KILL* a lot of his usability on high level corpus and grineer defense missions. You need to consider the more CC focused ults as well.

With Vaubans ult I dont use it to kill enemies, more to gather them in one place while I shoot them all with a puncture shotgun. If you limited that to only 5 casts per mission I would still have Bastille and it would only really slow down my killing of enemies.

And again: if you use all of your mod points to be able to spam ultimates more often than the next guy, why shouldn't you be able to? Why should everyone else be punished and left without using the fun abilities on their frames simply because you join a pug and are upset that people are using them to efficiently kill mobs and get everyone drops and xp? Why should people be forced to play your way? If people want to spam ults, let them. They'll learn its not that effective later on. If you dont want to spam ults find groups who wont and play with them.

Your idea would make the high wave count defense missions even less likely to occur, even though they are the end game content so far.

[GrayFox]

damnit...

maybe i havent explained myself correctly. Im not crying for a nerf - i just want the game to be more fun. I cant really understand how people consider pressing a button over and over again to be fun.

And how the hell do you see Charge Function as a nerf?

 

 

Hi, here's my reaction:

 

As quoted above, "you" want the game to be more fun, if I may be as bold as to ask: fun in what sense? fun for whom (in relation to the sense of fun you're trying to get across) 

I'm getting a sense of you asking for a mechanic that promotes a bit of a challenge, good as your intentions maybe for it but it goes down to the 2nd question of for whom? Yes a lot of us find fun in something that's challenging but having cooldowns or charging up for a skill, that most (if not all) players have grown accustomed to with playing is quite... for the sake of conversation, detrimental.

 

As some have mentioned, high level mobs from later waves in Defense maps shrug off 4th skill/ultimate skill damages like they're nothing but the thing is, dealing the most possible damage before an enemy/group of enemies go from point a (spawn area/mob path)) to point b (cryopod/player general area) is vital to succeeding in a mission. Warframe promotes (or at least what I think is included to what Warframe has to offer) is fast paced action to say the least, since it's flagship is all about ninja's (fast and all). Having your suggested ideas for 4th skills having charge times makes Warframe a bit iffy don't you think?

 

Don't get me wrong, while majority find Warframe fun as it is, you have every right to suggest more ways of making it fun, I'm just saying there are still more ways of doing so, imho, delays or charging up for skills is not one of them.

[stivoknis]

From what I can see, people like to use their ultimates because they want to farm resources/mods/etc. without being slowed down by large groups of enemies.  And this is fine, large groups of enemies are what ultimates should be saved for, but when playing with a group of players who only use their ultimates can be boring and unfun.  However, some ultimates take time to cast and leave the caster vulnerable.  Also, ults do not work very well on higher levels where they are needed the most.

 

My suggested fix for these issues should be to make ults insta-kill (or at least do a fixed percentage of damage if enemies are over a certain level) but have them drain all of the energy.  Then, players would have to save their ultimates for the right time or risk leaving themselves without any energy for other skills, yet the ultimates could still be used as a valid skill against higher level enemies.

 

I'm not saying "nerf the ults".  Just make them a little more situational.  After all, this is a co-op game.

[EnzoVulkoor]

I cant really understand how people consider pressing a button over and over again to be fun.

 

 

All games are repetitive clicks or key presses. Hell life is repetitive movement. If something is broken down to the fundamentals.. It's always going to be the same as everything else.

Surprised you weren't also whining in region chat about weapons with thunderbolt or glaive that instant kill more then one enemy in a much faster way...

[Frostmire]

I really have nothing about how powerful the ultimates are , but seeing every frame has the same " massive-aoe-ultimate-that-totally-screw-everything-low-and-mid-level " makes the game boring , just like how most skill 1 are the "bread n butter" skill

It makes the game so easy that only high level defense attract players

 

Myself just need something original , not a clone from the existing one .

Edited July 8, 2013 by Frostmire