Kotsender_Quasimir Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, radastir said: This discussion has surpassed the limits of childiness already as it had been started. klappe zu, affe tot... 5 minutes ago, radastir said: And no, you are not entitled to define what is cheese and how scaling should work. you are absolutely correct, only the devs are. and the devs established these forums for feedback and suggestions. and that's exactly what the OP provided and i supported his fundamental ideas somewhat. simple as that. if you don't agree feel free to counter-argument factually, but don't try to make this something personal. it's missing the mark and honestly makes you look somewhat desperate. why would i ever feel motivated to kill your fun? do you honestly believe people making balancing suggestions do so out of pure spite? that's borderline paranoid tbqh. i don't want to take your precious toys away to make you cry, dear. i firmly believe warframe has the potential for us both to have our cakes and eat em, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotsender_Quasimir Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, Bakkingamu said: Is it a crime to feel powerful after spending hundreds of hours maxing out in a PVE game? This game is a great power trip, why do you want to struggle at every turn? They've already made the game more frustrating with energy draining and nullifiers (especially with the newest patch), give it a rest. sigh... is it a crime to yearn for a challenge after having played thousands of hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radastir Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: if you don't agree feel free to counter-argument factually, but don't try to make this something personal. For fact-based counter arguments there have to be fact-based arguments first. You are the guy claiming about how sad and concerned you are about all the Devs and players having no fun without your nerf-"suggestions" before asking them first. So don't arrogate to speak in their/our/my name or be prepared for antagonism. For the "personal" part: 37 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: that's borderline paranoid tbqh. i don't want to take your precious toys away to make you cry, dear. Thank you for that, dearest darling. That's perfectly proving my point that nerf threads have nothing in common with constuctive balancing suggestions and are just loaded with hypocritical toxicity tbth. 37 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: klappe zu, affe tot... Edited July 10, 2016 by radastir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radastir Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) And just because I'm "desperate", I tell you the difference between a random nerf-demand and a constructive suggestion in examples: Example for a non-constructive, random nerf-demand: Quote [Free analogous quote from a recent Ember-nerf thread] Oh the Ember players r rushin over my map stealin my kills and killing my painfully slow Nitain farmin self punishment hardship experience, btw, i'm not king of DPS in an nitain alert they r trivializing my MK1-Braton-unranked-Oberon-Loadout pls DE nerf Ember NOW!!!1! Example for a constructive, fact-based feedback: On 9.6.2016 at 3:20 PM, radastir said: [Following a list of real issues encountered by other players] These are imo the main issues why i think his 4 really needs a rework (to be clear: not a nerf). At least the enemy invulnerability and the lack of control for the ash player once the 4 is pressed should be addressed soon. As it is now, the potential for Ash to be a nuisance for the whole team is just too high (and no, it's not about "killstealing", it is about teamplay and objectives). Edited July 10, 2016 by radastir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: sigh... is it a crime to yearn for a challenge after having played thousands of hours? If you or anyone has been doing anything for 1000 hours, there will be little to no challenge left. You have to be realistic about this. Think of one thing (anything real or simulated) that is challenging after 1000 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotsender_Quasimir Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, radastir said: For fact-based counter arguments there have to be fact-based arguments first. On 15.6.2016 at 9:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said: Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,... how about this, just an example? 1 hour ago, radastir said: You are the guy claiming about how sad and concerned you are about all the Devs and players having no fun without your nerf-"suggestions" before asking them first. So don't arrogate to speak in their/our/my name or be prepared for antagonism. easy there... i did not speak in their name. neither did i try to give my arguments weight with something like "the game is supposed to be...", that's actually what an anti-nerf guy started. i said "i'd imagine" it to be a bit frustrating designing something elaborate like rathuum ai or certain bosses or whatever and then see players not even really experiencing that content because they just breeze through it with valk / cheese of the month. hey, maybe i'm completely wrong, the fact they continuously release such easily cheesable content might be proof alright. ok then... i'm not trying to be a sycophant to support my points. tbh i find that assumption somewhat "toxic". 1 hour ago, radastir said: Thank you for that, dearest darling. That's perfectly proving my point that nerf threads have nothing in common with constuctive balancing suggestions and are just loaded with hypocritical toxicity tbth. c'mon now you're taking things (warframe, game balance as well as yourself) far too seriously... i understand my tone was somewhat of a tease but in fact i'm just trying to make peace here and get off that personal thing with a bit of mordacity. you want warframe to mainly be a relaxing game and i respect that. like i said: im sure there'd be a way to give both of us what we like. maybe some kind of schism like i proposed earlier would indeed be due, but having practically 2 games running would double the effort so that's out of the equation i guess... still i think there could be compromises. the notion that my alledged provocative wording would prove anything about the minds of nerf proposers in general is utter nonsense, tho. no offense ;). 1 hour ago, radastir said: And just because I'm "desperate", I tell you the difference between a random nerf-demand and a constructive suggestion in examples: so you are? c'mon man it's just a game... j/k. really now you're probably a most righteous dude in rl and all... no hard feelings? yeah, those were good examples alright. i get your point and agree but i don't see OP ranting like in your first one tbh... ash is certainly a problem... but the devs seem to agree since he's supposedly fixed as we type... one of my points in this discussion was: even that extremely powerful ult could work in the game if it wasn't for the overabundance of energy... Edited July 10, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotsender_Quasimir Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: If you or anyone has been doing anything for 1000 hours, there will be little to no challenge left. You have to be realistic about this. Think of one thing (anything real or simulated) that is challenging after 1000 hours. well... tbh i thought of that, too. and it's deffo a factor i should consider. maybe i've been around for too long already. BUT... on the other hand i do quite vividly remember starting out. it was with loki. rest assured, i met cheese early on... back then penta seemed totally broken to me lel ;) ... also come to think of it: usually after such an amount of time you should be able to say: "that game? oh yeah i rock it." but tbqh i can't even say if i'm a better warframe player now than back then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaviar Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: well... tbh i thought of that, too. and it's deffo a factor i should consider. maybe i've been around for too long already. BUT... on the other hand i do quite vividly remember starting out. it was with loki. rest assured, i met cheese early on... back then penta seemed totally broken to me lel ;) ... also come to think of it: usually after such an amount of time you should be able to say: "that game? oh yeah i rock it." but tbqh i can't even say if i'm a better warframe player now than back then... I think I've figured a reason for that. Warframe is TPS. But unlike your average shooter/action where you get better because you become more skilled "git gud" here is RPG-y. You get better by learning strength of your enemies, taking appropriate tools and utilising right tactics. I feel like very little of shooter skill is tested in Warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackheartstar_pc Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 36 minutes ago, Slaviar said: IBut unlike your average shooter/action where you get better because you become more skilled "git gud" here is RPG-y. You get better by learning strength of your enemies, taking appropriate tools and utilising right tactics. I feel like very little of shooter skill is tested in Warframe. I'd say with all elements taken into consideration it's more third person action than shooter, and with that third person action games generally power up your weapons as you go or give you more powerful weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 7 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: while i can somewhat understand that kind of frustration (especially the money part), one word: EULA. we are beta testers. that considered DE are in fact actually quite generous when it comes to compensation from my experience. also usually stuff does not just get "nerfed to the ground", c'mon... just fixed / rebalanced to make it more interesting. like mag for example: first week everyone was like "omfg i miss my corpus win button"... now some even call the new mag op across ALL factions. the synoid gammacor was deemed useless but it's just has some actual ammo economy now. saryn: pretty similar story to mag... etc etc. just random examples. no compensation would replace efficiency for me , nothing in this game is worth losing our, or even as much as lowering our efficiency to me . 100 primed chambers wouldn't be enough. your idea about this comes down to " what do players consider is worth losing this item or stat over". for example back in the day before i was on i heard ppl say steel charge (aura) was a R10 mod that got changed to R5 and any over R6 got replaced with Legend cores . this massive OVER compensation was widely accepted due to the fact that they got fusion mats = to that of maxing a primed mod( if they had existed back then ). where as having efficiency removed or changed would have to be a compensation unlike any other. one that would give a much faster energy recovery for high lvl players. i like my powers i use them all the time. do i spam 1 skill repeatedly? yea.....sometimes, specially right after getting staggered X_Xi don't like that much . but as for most of the time i use my skills in rotations and in orders to keep up a steady stream of my power on the field. these changes would change everything i enjoy Right now about my game play, my power lvl was worked for over the course of the last 1y and some odd months giving me 15 loadouts using No 2 weapons or frames alike in any of them ( note i didn't say companion due to the fact that DE ignores the Over Used Golden Nut-sack!) i have made ALL of them powerful and in terms of challenge i still have it, in solo mode where i like to play anyway, away from all players who use things i dislike and in a setting where my power can thrive. what the OP entails will kill solo play. or at least resort it to being ridiculously long just to complete simple missions. and lets not forget we have a WHOLE other solar system coming. they enemies we have now are just the beginning, we seem OP due to the fact that we have NEVER fought anything like whats coming ( i hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: actually if you see it that way it's even sadder most people will probably circumvent the intended challenge via finisher cheese... i gadda ask for reasons sake. i soloed this alert with frost and used my Knowledge of what ice proc and High impact do together to insta-kill the lvl 9999s by smashing them into walls while frozen. would you consider this use of knowledge like skill? or would u consider this OP cheese? please due let me know. as i felt smart and accomplished for doing it without covert , without daggers , while using a not commonly known proc effect. but i have a strong feeling that you are going to see it as OverPowered super cheese Edited July 10, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrendee Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Any nerf in a game that is PVE focused is a very, very, very bad idea.. Seriously.. Nothing kills a game or sends it's customers elsewhere faster.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said: sigh... is it a crime to yearn for a challenge after having played thousands of hours? you made yourself this powerful. you only have yourself to blame for the fun being removed and the challenge being gone. why should the devs fix that for u when all u have to do is use different mods? Edited July 10, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, DatDarkOne said: If you or anyone has been doing anything for 1000 hours, there will be little to no challenge left. You have to be realistic about this. Think of one thing (anything real or simulated) that is challenging after 1000 hours. iv put 3559 hours into this game and tbh i still have fun and challenge in it ( feel proud DE) but i find these challenges in solo modes in T4D60 waves T4s 60m ODS 60m. my problem is not finding challenge its starting with none and having to Build up to it in endless missions. what im looking for could be fixed by simply adding higher lvl planets with missions all around high lvl not just endless. dont forget that DE confirmed a new solar system is coming, we may need the power that we have now. listen to Teshin , we must prepare ourselves for what is coming from beyond the outer Terminis. being nerfed into the ground is the opposite of preparing Edited July 11, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said: listen to Teshin , we must prepare ourselves for what is coming from beyond the outer Terminis I highly recommend you watch the Tennocon video from DE. There is a little preview that was shown near the end that you should see in regards to Teshin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 33 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: I highly recommend you watch the Tennocon video from DE. There is a little preview that was shown near the end that you should see in regards to Teshin. i saw it , that means nothing to me we all have reasons. every 1 in the game started with "teshin is evil" meh the one mission we did for teshin (during natah) shiit got answered . things got done , and unlike your lotus he does not hide the consoles secrets from you. id rather work for Teshin then Lotus even with what new iv seen. at least we wouldn't be treated like children who couldn't be trusted with simple knowledge like. where do the capture targets go ? what forms of interrogation do we use? or do we let red veil handle it( cuz we know what they do just go into any relay and watch infested being made from a grineer), what information is in spy vaults that the lotus pays us such nice mods for.what information are we obtaining in mobile D missions. im sure that Teshin would answer these Questions as our lotus has left us in the dark for years Edited July 10, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 O.o LOL. *pauses* LMMFAO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrackFoxLegend Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 On June 15, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said: I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem. That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies. The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster. Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks. Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system. Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable. Add skill indexed mods. These mods would replace mods like serration. They would work by awarding advanced use of game mechanics and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die. Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots. The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,... So how could DE fix the energy system? Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds. Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form. Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything. Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown. So what would the effects of implementing these changes be? For starters the star map would become interesting again. Player skill would actually become a bigger factor which would add more room for growth and increase replayability. Ammo economy and energy management would become important again. Players could choose between modding for physical or elemental damage. DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. Endgame content could be rebalanced so enemies are no longer bullet sponge demigods that players currently don't bother killing if not necessary. I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back. Edit: People seem to think that I'm advocating nerfing warframe and weapon damage without addressing the enemy stats, but that couldn't be further from the truth. What I want is to keep the players engaged and challenged. Camping and spamming skills or cheesing your way through with copious CC and damage resistance is neither fun or engaging. Same goes for enemies with their nullifiers and debuffing auras. So I'm saying both should be rebalanced so players and enemies don't have to keep trying to out cheese each other. Edit 2: Removing serration and lowering bonuses from elemental mods would only serve to remove insane mod damage scaling. Flat damage mods would be replaced by conditional mods that would only provide their boost by fulfilling their conditions. Reveal hidden contents Mod examples: Head hunter (Rifle) ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare Strafer (Rifle)(40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare Wall turret (Rifle)( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare Perfectionist (Rifle)( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare Marksman (rifle/bow) (grants bonus damage depending on the shooting range) drain 9, rarity: rare One shot kill (rifle/bow/launcher) (+50% damage on the first hit, -30% damage on consecutive hits) drain 9, rarity: rare Vital strike (Rifle) (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare Speed Demon (Rifle) (grants bonus damage based on your movement speed) drain 9, rarity : rare Enduring destruction (Rifle) (grants up to 50% bonus damage the longer you keep firing, caps after 3 seconds) drain 9, rarity: rare Point blank (shot gun) (grant bonus damage the closer you fire at the enemy up to 50%) drain 9, rarity : rare Emergency holster (pistol) (converts all damage to finisher damage for 3 seconds after unholstering) drain 9, rarity: rare One man army (melee) (Grants up to 90% bonus damage based on the number of surrounding enemies in a 10 m radius ) drain 9, rarity : rare Revenge block (melee) (Parried damage is absorbed and can be unleashed with a channeling attack) drain 9, rarity : rare Raising hate (melee) (each consecutive strike on a single enemy raises melee damage by 15%) drain 9, rarity : rare Self destructing rage (melee) (channeling uses health instead of energy) drain 9, rarity: rare Opportunist (melee) (+30% bonus damage for every status afflicting the enemy) drain 9, rarity: rare These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more. I would agree with all of these changes if in fact they would increase replayability or make it any more fun. They wouldn't though as it's difficult enough as it is to get the items we want/need. Increasing the time that it takes for me or anyone to get the resources, warframe, or weapon parts we need will not help the game but will hinder it. Most new players at this point have such a hard time getting into the game because they can't tackle levels alone to get those resources they need, so they beg for help and what do you know, op players help. They help because they are op and it won't take an hour of their playtime to help a new player get those 1000 polymer they need or whatever it is. They help because it doesn't feel like a job. Even with the changes they've implemented in the last year, it has become more difficult to help these newer players because resource drop rates have either decreased or items need more of the resources. I trivialize some content because when I'm farming, I don't want to spend the most time possible farming. I hate farming anything, I enjoy the gameplay when I'm finished with it. All of this being said, has everyone forgotten that they are reworking damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, (PS4)CrackFoxLegend said: I would agree with all of these changes if in fact they would increase replayability or make it any more fun. They wouldn't though as it's difficult enough as it is to get the items we want/need. Increasing the time that it takes for me or anyone to get the resources, warframe, or weapon parts we need will not help the game but will hinder it. Most new players at this point have such a hard time getting into the game because they can't tackle levels alone to get those resources they need, so they beg for help and what do you know, op players help. They help because they are op and it won't take an hour of their playtime to help a new player get those 1000 polymer they need or whatever it is. They help because it doesn't feel like a job. Even with the changes they've implemented in the last year, it has become more difficult to help these newer players because resource drop rates have either decreased or items need more of the resources. I trivialize some content because when I'm farming, I don't want to spend the most time possible farming. I hate farming anything, I enjoy the gameplay when I'm finished with it. All of this being said, has everyone forgotten that they are reworking damage? i love your comment and agree , up untill the damage rework, that got thrown out the window ( according to DE) after prime pressure point got released Edited July 10, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrackFoxLegend Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Just now, (PS4)IrSchm33 said: i love your comment and agree , up untill the damage rework, that got thrown out the window ( according to DE) after prime pressure point got released I thought it was strange that they were releasing that but I figured they would just compensate us somehow when they took it out(I figured they just didn't think that one through.) I don't know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRVoidGuru Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)CrackFoxLegend said: I thought it was strange that they were releasing that but I figured they would just compensate us somehow when they took it out(I figured they just didn't think that one through.) I don't know..... they literally said it was a mistake by a dev. every one loved primed pressure point without understanding it screwed every melee weapon in damage 3.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrackFoxLegend Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said: they literally said it was a mistake by a dev. every one loved primed pressure point without understanding it screwed every melee weapon in damage 3.0 *shakes head* That explains that then lol, jeeze... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrew93 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 HELL NO. All this is saying is basically "Take what makes Warframe fun and throw it out of the game." Except the mod suggestions, those look pretty interesting, slap an extra 0 to each number and they might even be fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEATHLOK Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I agree with the OP, as harsh as such changes would feel. But I also think the developers have dug themselves into a hole on this one. I do miss running around with my Excalibur and Burston, shooting stuff. Now I have to build a Javelin Monkey, or I'm no good to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oishii Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I miss having to aim at the heads of enemies back when I started out, now i can body shot everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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