[pls lock] So THAT'S why everyone calls it "Damage 3.0"

[Teshin_Dax]

9 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

The problem with daikyu and other weapons in general is that crit is out of control. If it wasn't for weapons like shotguns that have absolutely monstrous base damage when fully nodded there would be no real competition. Only time status can begin to compete is if they can rain down corrosive procs. Crit needs to be changed to bring more balance in general.

It isnt out of Control ... how fast can you shoot with a bow? .. How fast can you delete Armor with procs? ..And how many enemies can you hit compared to a gun..

Without crit or high fire rate .. bows will go into the bin

[Teshin_Dax]

2 minutes ago, gluih said:

It's not only what you call it, but also what all the people who want damage 3.0 want out of it.

The thing is that the current system is actually pretty good. So what would make sense would be a damage 2.1 or something like that. Some small changes to make sure that defense mods are still relevant at the highest sortie levels (most of the time they actually are, but there are some condititions and enemies that deal too much damage) and to bring armored enemies down to what shielded enemies and pure hp enemies work with.

Agreed!

[S0V3REiGN]

1 minute ago, WaRsHooTer666 said:

It isnt out of Control ... how fast can you shoot with a bow? .. How fast can you delete Armor with procs? ..And how many enemies can you hit compared to a gun..

Without crit or high fire rate .. bows will go into the bin

See this is the thing, players have it ingrained into the mentality that if a slow weapon cannot crit then its garbage. This is the issue that needs to be addressed along side that ridiculous enemy scaling. Weapons should be viable without having to rely on multiple damage multipliers. 

[Fionntan]

12 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

The problem with daikyu and other weapons in general is that crit is out of control. If it wasn't for weapons like shotguns that have absolutely monstrous base damage when fully nodded there would be no real competition. Only time status can begin to compete is if they can rain down corrosive procs. Crit needs to be changed to bring more balance in general.

As long changes make it so the bow is viable to headshot crit only then that"s fine by me.

My worry stems when the changes take effect it may render bows useless again; like the old days where only Thunderbolt made it viable.

All due to current Enemy Scale we have, till it gets its rework, bows w/o crit won't be able make dent with just raw damage at long runs or Sorties.

A Crit 2.0 would be nice as well, but hopefully they get around doing Enemy Scale soon.

 

[Cyborg-Rox]

1 minute ago, S0V3REiGN said:

See this is the thing, players have it ingrained into the mentality that if a slow weapon cannot crit then its garbage. This is the issue that needs to be addressed along side that ridiculous enemy scaling. Weapons should be viable without having to rely on multiple damage multipliers. 

Well, it's kind of true though. If an automatic weapon has decent crit chance and damage, it's viable to mod it for crits, because the inconsistency of critting doesn't matter with high fire-rate. With slow-firing weapons however, you expect to one-shot every enemy. So having inconsistent crits on that means you roll the dice to get an enemy killed. If you don't, you gotta shoot again, taking twice as much time on that one enemy.

[Ivan_Rid]

25 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

The problem with daikyu and other weapons in general is that crit is out of control. If it wasn't for weapons like shotguns that have absolutely monstrous base damage when fully nodded there would be no real competition. Only time status can begin to compete is if they can rain down corrosive procs. Crit needs to be changed to bring more balance in general.

Daikyu wouldnt be so bad if it was doing primarily Slash damage. Guaranteed 100% procs, which most of the time would do finisher damage, on a high base damage weapon can be very devastating. As of now only proc that can really benefit from its stats is Gas, but because of IPS damage dillution you cant have guaranteed elemental procs.

[Schregger]

From what I gather, and pleae correct if im wrong on anything, Damage 3.0 is an unofficial title for the rework of warframes, weapons, mods, and enemy scaling. The end-goal is to basically make all warframes and most if not all weapons viable to use at high end missions and events, essentially allowing a greater diversity of tactics and such, instead of relying on an immutable in-game meta.

[S0V3REiGN]

2 minutes ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Well, it's kind of true though. If an automatic weapon has decent crit chance and damage, it's viable to mod it for crits, because the inconsistency of critting doesn't matter with high fire-rate. With slow-firing weapons however, you expect to one-shot every enemy. So having inconsistent crits on that means you roll the dice to get an enemy killed. If you don't, you gotta shoot again, taking twice as much time on that one enemy.

Honestly I think crit needs to be looked overall not just in Bows because i am not saying that bows are the biggest culprits of crit damage disparity (yet its very clear in display when you compare the Daikyu to the rest of the field). For bows they could increase their base damage in general to compete with the rest of the field Then again damage in general is really all over the place in warframe, so its truly hard  to say where each weapon should stand. It also doesn't help that DE loves power creep (how else would they push that prime access?) but to me if they lowered crit damage across the board it would not be a bad thing as long as enemies get balanced accordingly as well.

7 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Daikyu wouldnt be so bad if it was doing primarily Slash damage. Guaranteed 100% procs, which most of the time would do finisher damage, on a high base damage weapon can be very devastating. As of now only proc that can really benefit from its stats is Gas, but because of IPS damage dillution you cant have guaranteed elemental procs.

 

Can't disagree with that, most of the time you proc puncture. :V

[Serafim_94]

37 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

The problem with daikyu and other weapons in general is that crit is out of control. If it wasn't for weapons like shotguns that have absolutely monstrous base damage when fully nodded there would be no real competition. Only time status can begin to compete is if they can rain down corrosive procs. Crit needs to be changed to bring more balance in general.

Or status should be changed to all of them being useful and not random as F***, when it draws from pool of 3-4 different damage tipes. When that happens - maybe status would be worth putting on something other than offhands.

As of now we have Bleed, Magnetic, Corrosive and Viral on useful side. Radiation is good, but not on weapons. So that makes 4 useful status effects out of how many?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Serafim_94

[gluih]

4 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Or status should be changed to all of them being useful and not random as F***, when it draws from pool of 3-4 different damage tipes. When that happens - maybe status would be worth putting on something other than offhands.

That would actually help to make a lot more weapons really good. Right now the only status I care about is slash and corrosive against high armor targets. Slash procs on shotguns are also worse, because you don't get the proc for the full damage. Blast is actually really annoying most of the time, because you then don't get headshots.

[Kevrex97]

We need more Tactical gameplay and less mindless killing. Yea warframe is a horde based game but AI and dmg are one of the old systems that have degraded over the years and the current bumrushing AI gameplay actualy makes most weaponsless perferable then others(like snipers) and prevent new weapons with cool charateristics(ex: Stradavar) rendered usless because it can take out hordes past (X)-lvl .

[Cyborg-Rox]

I edited the OP with some info. Read it and tell me what you think, guys.

[Ivan_Rid]

1 minute ago, Kanlor said:

We need more Tactical gameplay and less mindless killing. Yea warframe is a horde based game but AI and dmg are one of the old systems that have degraded over the years and the current bumrushing AI gameplay actualy makes most weaponsless perferable then others(like snipers) and prevent new weapons with cool charateristics(ex: Stradavar) rendered usless because it can take out hordes past (X)-lvl .

I`d love to see a new enemy faction which is less about hordes and more about strong individual units with distinct abilities and weakspots, so the snipers and the like would be more viable. May be Sentients would be expanded into that, or Umbras, or eventually a new faction of Tenno-like individuals would be introduced. I can only hope.

[gluih]

5 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

I`d love to see a new enemy faction which is less about hordes and more about strong individual units with distinct abilities and weakspots, so the snipers and the like would be more viable. May be Sentients would be expanded into that, or Umbras, or eventually a new faction of Tenno-like individuals would be introduced. I can only hope.

Why not just have enemies like that in the existing factions?

[Ivan_Rid]

2 minutes ago, gluih said:

Why not just have enemies like that in the existing factions?

Well, remember how people reacted to Bursas when those were introduced into mundane missions. They werent happy.

Yet novelty of a new faction would override all salt, even if it technically was all Bursas all the time.