Fun taking a Back Seat to the Business Model?

[KoshLovesYou]

11 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you think EVERYTHING about the game is terrible, then maybe you need to find a different game.. 

Why would a dev need a toxic unpleasable player to stick around? All they are going to do is make the forums look ugly

Blaming players rather than examining the execution of game mechanics and the deployment of content is a really, really bad way to encourage people to play your game.

[Littlerift]

13 minutes ago, KoshLovesYou said:

Blaming players rather than examining the execution of game mechanics and the deployment of content is a really, really bad way to encourage people to play your game.

 

We see this all the time. Criticise a change that has severely hampered your ability to enjoy a game you love and instantly you're a blackleg who needs to leave and find some other game to play. The same people, of course, will say that they feel that the developer shouldn't revert the changes because they personally enjoy it...

[PhillipJokar]

After years of playing I've yet to feel locked into buying anything outside of a couple of the prime pack cosmetics I wanted, and most of the things that came close have been changed over time to be easier.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

33 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

 

We see this all the time. Criticise a change that has severely hampered your ability to enjoy a game you love and instantly you're a blackleg who needs to leave and find some other game to play. The same people, of course, will say that they feel that the developer shouldn't revert the changes because they personally enjoy it...

Indeed. It's not that people are resistant to change they are resistant to change that makes the game worse for certain reasons that might not affect everyone.

[Unus]

This update has had me worried for several slightly different reasons. The largest of which is my constantly nagging thought of "What do Digital's actual profit margins look like? How long is this game and my pleasant time in Region gonna last before I wake up one day and find out Digital went so far in the Red that they were absorbed by some other company?". The current message from Steve, combined with the worrying money queues others have sniffed out, paint me less of a picture of "time to milk this sucka till its gone." And more "okayokayokay! Damage control, right, yeah, (sweating and collar popping) how. . . we gonna dig ourselves outta this one? (Insert series of expletives here) we. . . we gotta make that scratch for this month or. . . or . . . (Expleteive) ."

I'm on tender hooks as to whether that's true or not and have no way of finding out if I'm right or wrong. Talk about a gut buster. Either way, be it greed or the actions of a desperate animal, such measures, if permanent, could have a significantly detrimental effect on our slice of cyberspace's longevity.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Unus

[ndantony]

Imagine you are a dev, or a programmer, you can code a warframe with whatever or no-dead/unlimited, or just press a button to  end the mission with 9999999 credits, 9999999 whatever resources you want...

Wait, why do you even even "play"; why do you even open up Warframe? What's the purpose? What is "game"? Are you being forced to play? Are you being forced to "not" play??

[Kaisty]

3 minutes ago, ndantony said:

Imagine you are a dev, or a programmer, you can code a warframe with whatever or no-dead/unlimited, or just press a button to  end the mission with 9999999 credits, 9999999 whatever resources you want...

Wait, why do you even even "play"; why do you even open up Warframe? What's the purpose? What is "game"? Are you being forced to play? Are you being forced to "not" play??

I was slightly confused by what you are asking, so I decided to post up two different responses. One for companies and the other for players.

If you are talking about the companies Point of view:

They play to test the game and see if the code they put in works without crashing the game. They want players to feel the urge to play their game and spend money so they have revenue. If players had the ability of console commands, sure some would go around and just god mode everything while having all the items and stuff. Some may leave afterwards, but others would be using said abilities to test out certain builds in a variety of situations or to debug the game in the hopes of helping it become something that everyone can be proud of. Afterwards, they might clear their inventory of all but a few things and then play without cheats only to use them when there are catastrophic bugs that show up. Even though devs have access to console commands and can give themselves all items, some only do it on dev accounts to show off items or test them, but when it comes to testing the game itself, they will use specified accounts that they strip of the console commands and will only give them the basic stuff. That way they can see if the grind walls they setup are at a manageable level.

The downside is since there can be numerous bugs and problems along with deadlines for new stuff to meet, the devs can't test and fix everything without the players help. Yet at the same time the devs can get conflicting feedback and then decide to got with whatever suits the feel they want for the game.

Now, if you are talking about the Players persepective, then it depends on the player and what is their main thing they want to achieve at the moment:

- Some want their frames and companions to look as "fashionable" as possible. What good is slaughtering everything in your way if you can't look good doing it?

- Some want to make tons of enemies die in a multitude of ways while feeling powerful while watching both bodies and numbers shoot through the roof as they act like deities among mere mortals.

- Some want that super tough, gotta have everything in exact setup otherwise you die feel to the game. The rush of death always being a frame away and the urgency of the mission where it all counts.

- But all players want to know that the time, money and effort put into a game was actually worth it to them. If said player somehow had the ability to go back in time and change their decision on if they would play the game, would they do it all over again and still have the feeling of enjoyment?

In any case, unless the game either gets players addicted to playing it, they will stop and move on. Consider Warframe like a drug dealer and they decided to change the formula to see if their customers will stay hooked like before.Sadly, this new batch has an amount of players feeling wrong and they don't like this version of the high they are used to. Since we can't get the old stuff back there are a few options they will take:

- Some will leave entirely and possibly spread via word of mouth how the game has changed and become something they don't like anymore. There may be a few who hear it and decide not to pay attention to Warframe or will go and see if it is the train wreck that the players said it was.

- Some will point out problems with the product and either offer tips on fixing it or just straight say how much it is terrible and how the dealer is terrible for changing. The former is the type who want to see the game still going strong and hopefully bounce back from any downsides that have occurred while the latter feels betrayed and scorned. Said players might stick around if they want to give more feedback to fix the issues, or may stay to see if anything is "fixed" in their opinion and if not then they packed all the camping snacks to watch the world burn so to speak. Now it does not help the game in anyway for the only criticism to be in the form of dev bashing because if that is the thing wrong with the game, then maybe you should rethink about the list of things wrong before posting .

- Then you have the folks who love the dealer and their product so much they defend it and treat all criticism as an attack on the dealer even if said person was not bashing them. This type of attitude is just as bad as those who bash the devs for the things they do because if everything is treated as perfect, why fix it? I can attest that there are going to always be bugs when updating code in any type of programming, and this game has plenty that either were dormant or recently created. But to run around and tell people that "their feedback is wrong" or "if you don't like it, then leave. We don't need you." or anything along those lines without the previous person showing signs of dev bashing will leave a bad feeling and taste in players mouths.

[Hemmo67]

10 hours ago, (PS4)KrakenUnchained said:

There are a lot of things you could live without, still they nice to get and anyones free to ask for them

watch yourself, no one asked you to read this post neither to reply, but still you did and no one complaining about, just saying

gratz to u for finding the hole i thought nobody could find :P

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

15 hours ago, BlazerEraser said:

You could argue he's complaining because he cares, but the twist is if you make everything too easy to get as a free player there won't be any reason for players to spend money.

I don't know if it's just me (Well actually I sorta do know because a few other console folks agreed with me) but when I started a year ago, this game was amazing, so much so, that I actually spent my own money on it just because it was fun and I felt DE deserved some money for making it. That's how it should be, people paying some money because the game is good, that DE has made a good product and we like spending our time with it. But recently it does really actually seem like they are trying to incentivise spending money to get what you want, which in a PvE game that's F2P too does't bode well. The new content they added, despite being buggy, is not that bad, in a game like Warframe that keeps evolving and getting actively patched the bugs will get fixed, but the change they've made to the market with plat prices however is terrible. There's a fine balance, and I think DE may actually be starting to fall under it, which is not good. I really like this game and I want to love it again, but putting money first just drives everyone away, no matter how much you need it

[BlazerEraser]

8 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

I don't know if it's just me (Well actually I sorta do know because a few other console folks agreed with me) but when I started a year ago, this game was amazing, so much so, that I actually spent my own money on it just because it was fun and I felt DE deserved some money for making it. That's how it should be, people paying some money because the game is good, that DE has made a good product and we like spending our time with it. But recently it does really actually seem like they are trying to incentivise spending money to get what you want, which in a PvE game that's F2P too does't bode well. The new content they added, despite being buggy, is not that bad, in a game like Warframe that keeps evolving and getting actively patched the bugs will get fixed, but the change they've made to the market with plat prices however is terrible. There's a fine balance, and I think DE may actually be starting to fall under it, which is not good. I really like this game and I want to love it again, but putting money first just drives everyone away, no matter how much you need it

that's a bit of a double standard i feel, since we are starting to look at DE not as people, but like some corporate things, and i don't like that, sure it's business at the end of the day but i never saw any other team/company be so open with what they do and actually stick to a schedule, this f2p no less.

At the end of the day they are people that need to earn a living, maybe they are just testing grounds now, see how we react.

[smokednin]

Honestly, there was a period that persisted for a long time after I started, where I really felt that the devs were more interested in making an interesting, unique, fun game than they were in just making a profit. It's only been over the past year or so that I've been feeling like it's been slowly shifting in the other direction.

That's not to say I think that DE only cares about making money. They do care about the game, and it definitely shows, but things feel different now. Sometimes it feels like there's a bigger disconnect between the developers and the players than there used to be, which scares me. I honestly feel that even the development team might be getting some of the same vibes, and that it might be out of their control. Especially after reading this topic.

I don't know how DE operates internally, but to me it feels like there's a bit of a conflict between those at DE who actually develop the game, and whoever it is working on the marketing and telling them what they can, can't, and have to do.

[Nijyumensou]

12 minutes ago, smokednin said:

Honestly, there was a period that persisted for a long time after I started, where I really felt that the devs were more interested in making an interesting, unique, fun game than they were in just making a profit. It's only been over the past year or so that I've been feeling like it's been slowly shifting in the other direction.

That's not to say I think that DE only cares about making money. They do care about the game, and it definitely shows, but things feel different now. Sometimes it feels like there's a bigger disconnect between the developers and the players than there used to be, which scares me. I honestly feel that even the development team might be getting some of the same vibes, and that it might be out of their control. Especially after reading this topic.

I don't know how DE operates internally, but to me it feels like there's a bit of a conflict between those at DE who actually develop the game, and whoever it is working on the marketing and telling them what they can, can't, and have to do.

If you read what you have wrote, you would realize the changes were made purely because of one logical reason, what they thought would be the best decision was wrong. They probably thought that there was enough fun and creativity added to the game, people will automatically pay the company even in a F2P game. After some months, money isn't coming in as much as they predicted to it. So stakeholders posed questions and it is become obvious that the direction is wrong as a company. Changes made in U19 Is a result of  being sandwich by players and stakeholders problem. As promised, they reduced the grind of prime part and result in massive drop in that area of economy and to compensate the drop, they changed their target of grind to everything else. Of course,people are going to complain because it is F2P to them while ignoring the entire fact that it is business and they have to deal with stakeholders. 

[smokednin]

44 minutes ago, Nijyumensou said:

If you read what you have wrote, you would realize the changes were made purely because of one logical reason, what they thought would be the best decision was wrong. They probably thought that there was enough fun and creativity added to the game, people will automatically pay the company even in a F2P game. After some months, money isn't coming in as much as they predicted to it. So stakeholders posed questions and it is become obvious that the direction is wrong as a company. Changes made in U19 Is a result of  being sandwich by players and stakeholders problem. As promised, they reduced the grind of prime part and result in massive drop in that area of economy and to compensate the drop, they changed their target of grind to everything else. Of course,people are going to complain because it is F2P to them while ignoring the entire fact that it is business and they have to deal with stakeholders. 

I don't see what you're trying to say, and I don't think it's in any of our positions to claim we know exactly what the "one logical reason" is for anything DE does.

I never meant to imply anything about a grind. If anything, right now Warframe's a big slot machine where you're constantly gambling for more chances to gamble (with this last update though, a bit of grinding was introduced with Void Traces, and the fact that rare drops only have an insanely low chance of dropping without them). Personally, I'd actually prefer a "grind" to this current gambling system, at least then we could see ourselves making solid progress.

And I'm not complaining about the things I have to pay for. I've actually put over 100 dollars into this game, so the way I feel has nothing to do with whether it's free or not. The problem I have is that some of these more recent (over the past year or so) changes being made are detracting from the fun of the game for me.

I could easily afford pretty much everything currently in the game at this point, but if I were to buy it, then what? I'd rather earn at least some of it, but when earning any of these things and actually playing the game becomes far more tedious than fun... then the problem emerges. Why even pay for these items at that point? 

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much or little effort it takes to get or do something in this game, what matters is that it's fun and that the effort required is relatively equal to the reward. I think the development team is trying to make a fun game, but things like being pushed into releasing an update before it was ready (as suggested in the topic I linked) don't help that at all.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

9 hours ago, BlazerEraser said:

that's a bit of a double standard i feel, since we are starting to look at DE not as people, but like some corporate things, and i don't like that, sure it's business at the end of the day but i never saw any other team/company be so open with what they do and actually stick to a schedule, this f2p no less.

At the end of the day they are people that need to earn a living, maybe they are just testing grounds now, see how we react.

But it's been proven time and time again that the Free to Play Pay to Win/ Pay for Fun model just doesn't work, especially in a game where you literally don't have that much to lose since it is PvE. If anything, they are going to drive people away, and this community is not that big to begin with. Some grind is ok, but if you purposefully incentivise paying actual money by making your RNG S#&$ and drop rates $&*&*#(%&ly low, which has become even more obvious now, on top of not taking legit feedback and concerns to fix powercreep, scaling for players and enemies, and S#&$ like that, then you are the only one to blame for the death of the game as you slowly drive a nail into its head. Honestly, that issue has almost nothing to do with working a job, it's about integrity, which DE is starting to lose

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

6 hours ago, smokednin said:

I don't see what you're trying to say, and I don't think it's in any of our positions to claim we know exactly what the "one logical reason" is for anything DE does.

I never meant to imply anything about a grind. If anything, right now Warframe's a big slot machine where you're constantly gambling for more chances to gamble (with this last update though, a bit of grinding was introduced with Void Traces, and the fact that rare drops only have an insanely low chance of dropping without them). Personally, I'd actually prefer a "grind" to this current gambling system, at least then we could see ourselves making solid progress.

And I'm not complaining about the things I have to pay for. I've actually put over 100 dollars into this game, so the way I feel has nothing to do with whether it's free or not. The problem I have is that some of these more recent (over the past year or so) changes being made are detracting from the fun of the game for me.

I could easily afford pretty much everything currently in the game at this point, but if I were to buy it, then what? I'd rather earn at least some of it, but when earning any of these things and actually playing the game becomes far more tedious than fun... then the problem emerges. Why even pay for these items at that point? 

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much or little effort it takes to get or do something in this game, what matters is that it's fun and that the effort required is relatively equal to the reward. I think the development team is trying to make a fun game, but things like being pushed into releasing an update before it was ready (as suggested in the topic I linked) don't help that at all.

That pretty much sums it up

[ENGINEEEEER]

On 7/10/2016 at 11:08 AM, BlackCoMerc said:

You gotta make a buck. Everyone knows businesses have to make money. 

But you can make money, without outright wasting your customers time.

Except... Warframe doesn't seem to understand that.

Weeks for 1 Sortie reward. 

More than 20 scans for a Kavats. On a useless mission.

RNG that can force wasted Relics.

Ten or more runs just to increase the CHANCE of getting a rarer item.

Not a single late game mission, event or mode with a guaranteed desirable reward IN THE WHOLE GAME.

The most grind riddled games on earth offer Raid equipment. Even Destiny guaranteed some things. 

But not Warframe. It's not even so much a game any longer, as it is a business model with a bit of game play tacked on as a (more and more obvious) afterthought.

Man every one of those points is misinformed. 

Not sure what you mean about sorties.

Kavat scans are bugged but being fixed. 

RNG wasted many more keys. They buffed all the rare drop chances and gave you a means to increase them further. 

You can max out traces in 1 or 2 runs. 

Warframe has never guaranteed an endgame reward on late nodes. It's all just mods and cores to progress. 

Quit complaining or move on. 

[-Sandman]

25 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

Not sure what you mean about sorties.

I think he means the rotation period. 

 

25 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

Kavat scans are bugged but being fixed. 

DE made a statement? I thought it was just bad RNG. 

 

25 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

You can max out traces in 1 or 2 runs. 

100 traces in 1 run? 

 

25 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

Quit complaining or move on. 

That's exactly how to please your customers, I endorse. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by -Sandman

[ENGINEEEEER]

Just now, -Sandman said:

He means the rotation period. 

 

DE made a statement? I thought it was just bad RNG. 

 

100 traces in 1 run? 

 

That's exactly how to please your customers, I endorse. 

Ah sortie rotations are always rough. I used to play on console and we always got ripped off. 

A 100 might be a stretch but a dedicated farming team can do it. Even a nekros helps double or triple drops. 

Constructive criticism is good, senseless whining is just negativity. 

[-Sandman]

49 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

Ah sortie rotations are always rough. I used to play on console and we always got ripped off. 

A 100 might be a stretch but a dedicated farming team can do it. Even a nekros helps double or triple drops. 

Constructive criticism is good, senseless whining is just negativity. 

Well that is good news about the kavats, even thought I already chose to give them my money (edit: money I know they will not give me back), because well, KITTEHZ!

I am however a firm believer that all feedback in whatever form is helpful, even negativity shows passion and can be used by a wise manager to improve the process. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by -Sandman

[ENGINEEEEER]

32 minutes ago, -Sandman said:

Well that is good news about the kavats, even thought I already chose to give them my money, because well, KITTEHZ!

I am however a firm believer that all feedback in whatever form is helpful, even negativity shows passion and can be used by a wise manager to improve the process. 

Haha I understand. I want the catbrows bad. I hope they hotfix them today. 

Feedback is good but there's varying degrees of helpfulness. There's been some real crazy feedback. I think the "if you don't revert this I'm leaving Warframe!" Is a little dramatic.