Adding PvP

[Zakalwe]

Fair enough. Have at it. If you enjoy discussing a pointless eventuality that is quickly exhausted and entirely fictional, by all means.

It's fun for people to imagine things, they do it on forums all the time. Threads like: "If they made a "insert unlikly source material" movie/game, who would your choice of director/developer be and why?"

I don't know why you're so against people having some careless enjoyment, or the need you have to look down on it like you do... :/

[Ced23Ric]

I don't know why you're so against people having some careless enjoyment, or the need you have to look down on it like you do... :/

My problem isn't "careless enjoyment". Enjoy all you like. My problem are the reoccuring fallacies and unproven statements, the demanding tone, the implied necessity and the ignorance to the state of the game. This is, after all, a Beta Testing forum, correct? Now we all give feedback, and the feedback on PvP has gotten so high that the developer answered, to the point where DESteve actually borderline mocked people, by paraphrasing their too common statements such as "Without PvP, this game will die!". Driven by the repeated discussions that got out of hand because people just wouldn't get it, threads have been closed, merged and are under massive surveillance.

There is no PvP on the roadmap. The feedback has been answered. Move on, let it go.

The game won't fail without PvP, it doesn't need PvP, and if the concept of a dungeon crawler isn't becoming to someone, that is okay. Then, Warframe isn't for that person. If you did not have fun playing Diablo, Torchlight, and their clones, you won't have fun playing Warframe once the novelty of a third person shooter has worn off. This game might not be for such a gamer. And it does not have to be.

The current superstructure is not prepared for PvP in the slightest. The changes needed are not small. The time would not be insignificant. The entire networking behind Warframe is detrimental for PvP, it would always favor the host, to degrees that would cause nothing but S#&$storms. Dedicated servers aren't cheap. Dedicated servers need a new client, a new networking engine, and staff to maintain them. Warframe's beauty is the small client, the slim maintenance architecture and the procedural levels. PvP maps cannot be procedural, they need to be symmetrical and fair as soon as any gamemode but DM/TDM (and subsidiaries) is inserted. CTF, DOM? Forget it, needs own maps.

And I simply do not understand how these things are not clear as day to people. Why they keep on asking for something that is pretty much the opposite of what this game is. The request has been denied. The framework is not there. The topic is dead. What is left to discuss? A future that will more than likely never be? Now that is just a waste of time. Do I look down upon people how do not make these observations and connections? Not initially. Only if they lie to themselves with made-up arguments to cast the harsh reality of it aside. Because people who willingly progress with a discussion due to voluntary ignorance clearly don't want to discuss, they want their unrealistic expectations to be confirmed.

I don't have anything against the people asking for it. I understand it, they are used to PvP games. It's all we've been getting from the mass-market lately. It's the hype par excellence. This just isn't the game for it.

And that's where eventually I cannot help but feel like I am talking to pouting children, sticking to a fantasy over reality.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[cypherhalo]

I'm glad the devs are focusing on PvE. There are enough games that do PvP out there and frankly I'm sick of it. PvP can be fun but it can also be very frustrating and I play games to have fun.

I wouldn't mind if they added in PvP to this game, I think it would help expand the audience. They'd have to treat it the way SWTOR does or something like that, basically have it be a separate mode and I think the only way to make it viable would be that the powers would have to be massively readjusted. So basically, the same warframe would have to work differently in PvE vs PvP. Anyway, keep the focus on PvE for now as there is still work to be done in that area.

Overall, the game is great and like I said, I really appreciate the fact that it is PvE.

[Blatantfool]

Yes, I have. And the former competitively, lol.

It's like CS and Quake in the sense that it's easy to learn and the gameplay is smooth.

And like I said, I don't expect it to play on a competitive level, it would just be fun. And I realize the amount of tweaking needed.

It. Would. Be. fun. For a lot of us.

Talk about a stupid reply.

Making it work would requiring changing the way things work in general.

If having a PvP mode means the PvE has to be less fun it isn't worth it. Almost every change they'd need to make would involve across the board nerfing. Part of the fun is feeling powerful. Destroying that is stupid.

And for someone who is a 'Former competitive player' you sure seem to be quick to hope for a half-assed PvP. You and I should both know that if you make the jump and create a competitive element you have to follow through and make it actually work. Games with extremely poor competitive elements get a really, really bad reputation via word of mouth because PvP interested player flock in and then leave in droves unhappy with the experience.

The last thing the game needs is PvP. If there has to be a competitive element the game should find a unique way to do it that focuses on its strengths. Even having two teams of Tenno race each other to complete objectives would be better suited for the game as it is now.

[kernel_mode]

Totally against PVP. There are plenty of PVP games, but not so much good PVE ones. And this game is great. PVP will ruin it with ballancing issues and more... I just can't imagine PVP in this game.

[Zakalwe]

Pvp could be balanced as a separate game.

And there will come a time if this game does well enough that they'll be able to affrod to hire devs for the specific development of it, and not take anything away from pve.

The last thing this game need right now is pvp.

[Blatantfool]

Pvp could be balanced as a separate game.

And there will come a time if this game does well enough that they'll be able to affrod to hire devs for the specific development of it, and not take anything away from pve.

The last thing this game need right now is pvp.

If they are going to go that far then the other game should be its own damn game. Warframe has its own specific strengths and a few of them benefit greatly from the way that player power levels can be super high since it is Co-Op.

It is not unlike trying to make a circle fit into a square. It isn't natural and if you force it the damn thing is awfully likely to break.

Being COMPETITIVE in Warframe has a lot to do with Leaderboards. So if you want to have competition start asking the Devs to make things like Daily/Weekly/Monthly leaderboards and allowing players to have high scores in a mission. Features in a game have to suit the strengths of the game and if they don't the feature is useless.

It is a poor idea to add PvP for the reason of 'It doesn't have it' or 'It might attract more people'. You add that sort of thing if it enhances the type of enjoyment the game wants to give players. In this case it doesn't match up.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Zakalwe]

There's nothing pve exclusive about the core of Warframe, It's nothing like trying to fit a circle into a square at all. The basic foundation: general style, movement, shooting, could all be worked to fit pvp and, in fact, would fit pvp modes very well. The only thing that would really require reworking would be the powers, the rest would just need rebalancing.

It's too much work for now because Pve should remain the focus, but as an idea for the future it doens't in anyway go against the foundation of the game.

And many people who want pvp simply want it because they love the style and lore of warframe and would love a pvp that utilises that, which is not a bad thing.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Ced23Ric]

Zakalwe: You didn't read even a quarter of what I wrote to you after you asked me. Why even ask, then?

[Blatantfool]

There's nothing pve exclusive about the core of Warframe, It's nothing like trying to fit a circle into a square at all. The basic foundation: general style, movement, shooting, could all be worked to fit pvp and, in fact, would fit pvp modes very well. The only thing that would really require reworking would be the powers, the rest would just need rebalancing.

It's too much work for now because Pve should remain the focus, but as an idea for the future it doens't in anyway go against the foundation of the game.

And many people who want pvp simply want it because they love the style and lore of warframe and would love a pvp that utilises that, which is not a bad thing.

The core of Warframe is to be a really cool Third Person Shooter that is almost a Dungeon Crawler. The enjoyment a player is supposed to feel from the game sprouts from this. If you like Third person shooting mechanics and enjoy dungeon crawler sort of gameplay then this is a good game for you.

What you are talking about are the Third Person Shooter Mechanics. Of course that works in PvE. Unfortunately that isn't the actual core of the game. That alone isn't the point of gameplay. That isn't where the enjoyment or satisfaction really comes from. Certainly they help - but they are just how the player moves and fights. They are a part, only a small part, of the package.

There is more to this then you seem to be understanding. The REASON it doesn't fit is because the way Warframe is trying to create enjoyment for its players has more to do with the idea of being this ridiculously badass space ninja tearing through spaceships and cleaving through loads of baddies with ease. Extremely powerful abilities and the ridiculous levels you can modify your guns and melee weapons lead to a feeling of awesome power when you are just destroying everyone in your path.

That sort of thing doesn't WORK in PvP. It'd consist of a bunch of people trying to one shot kill each other forever. And if you fixed the PvP by taking a nerfbat to the abilities and mods you'll hurt PvE by sapping away the feeling of power.

If you just balance them entirely different you'll find in Warframes case the balance in PvE and PvP would be so drastic that they might as well be totally different games. This doesn't fit well at all. The two sides of the game should feel like a pretty natural and smooth transition.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Blatantfool]

Zakalwe: You didn't read even a quarter of what I wrote to you after you asked me. Why even ask, then?

It is really easy to argue about things you only have 'some' knowledge about. Zaka honestly believe what he is saying but only knows part of the issue. Same as me.

I mean I only know some of the very basics of how or why things like this are handled and even then my knowledge is narrow and entirely based off word of mouth.

I'm seriously considering just linking videos from the youtuber ExtraCreditz in this forum. Those guys flesh out a ton of information about how games are actually made and things player should know and they do it better then any explanaition from me could.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Ced23Ric]

I meant this part, for example:

The current superstructure is not prepared for PvP in the slightest. The changes needed are not small. The time would not be insignificant.

The entire networking behind Warframe is detrimental for PvP, it would always favor the host, to degrees that would cause nothing but S#&$storms. Dedicated servers aren't cheap. Dedicated servers need a new client, a new networking engine, and staff to maintain them.

Warframe's beauty is the small client, the slim maintenance architecture and the procedural levels. PvP maps cannot be procedural, they need to be symmetrical and fair as soon as any gamemode but DM/TDM (and subsidiaries) is inserted. CTF, DOM? Forget it, needs own maps.

[Blatantfool]

Yeah man. I get what you mean.

But you gotta take it with a grain of salt anyway. It is opinions and prior knowledge/experience VS. opinions and prior knowledge/experience

Based on my understanding of games PvP sounds like a horrible idea for Warframe and I feel like alternative forms of competitive play need to be talked about. Direct player versus player just wont ever work. Racing through mission objectives or some other weird thing that plays to the games strengths? Maybe. In fact it is even worth discussing.

[Ced23Ric]

My problem isn't that they don't know any better. That's okay. Not knowing something isn't a problem. But ignoring it, because it disassembles one's opinion, that is. That is deliberate ignorance.

Other than that: Agreed. Competitive gameplay, such as races, have been discussed in the past, and those are game variants completely fine within the limitations of Warframe. I'd actually love to get two groups of 4 going and race my friends. :)

[Pr1nce]

My problem isn't "careless enjoyment". Enjoy all you like. My problem are the reoccuring fallacies and unproven statements, the demanding tone, the implied necessity and the ignorance to the state of the game. This is, after all, a Beta Testing forum, correct? Now we all give feedback, and the feedback on PvP has gotten so high that the developer answered, to the point where DESteve actually borderline mocked people, by paraphrasing their too common statements such as "Without PvP, this game will die!". Driven by the repeated discussions that got out of hand because people just wouldn't get it, threads have been closed, merged and are under massive surveillance.

There is no PvP on the roadmap. The feedback has been answered. Move on, let it go.

The game won't fail without PvP, it doesn't need PvP, and if the concept of a dungeon crawler isn't becoming to someone, that is okay. Then, Warframe isn't for that person. If you did not have fun playing Diablo, Torchlight, and their clones, you won't have fun playing Warframe once the novelty of a third person shooter has worn off. This game might not be for such a gamer. And it does not have to be.

The current superstructure is not prepared for PvP in the slightest. The changes needed are not small. The time would not be insignificant. The entire networking behind Warframe is detrimental for PvP, it would always favor the host, to degrees that would cause nothing but S#&$storms. Dedicated servers aren't cheap. Dedicated servers need a new client, a new networking engine, and staff to maintain them. Warframe's beauty is the small client, the slim maintenance architecture and the procedural levels. PvP maps cannot be procedural, they need to be symmetrical and fair as soon as any gamemode but DM/TDM (and subsidiaries) is inserted. CTF, DOM? Forget it, needs own maps.

And I simply do not understand how these things are not clear as day to people. Why they keep on asking for something that is pretty much the opposite of what this game is. The request has been denied. The framework is not there. The topic is dead. What is left to discuss? A future that will more than likely never be? Now that is just a waste of time. Do I look down upon people how do not make these observations and connections? Not initially. Only if they lie to themselves with made-up arguments to cast the harsh reality of it aside. Because people who willingly progress with a discussion due to voluntary ignorance clearly don't want to discuss, they want their unrealistic expectations to be confirmed.

I don't have anything against the people asking for it. I understand it, they are used to PvP games. It's all we've been getting from the mass-market lately. It's the hype par excellence. This just isn't the game for it.

And that's where eventually I cannot help but feel like I am talking to pouting children, sticking to a fantasy over reality.

Thumbs up +1.

I've went through several threads like these and I've lost the energy to say anything else. Thanks for expressing 99% of what I wanted to say Ced. ;)

Really. From the botttom of my heart, thank you.

[HUmar]

A lot of games try to balance there gameplay for Both PvE and PvP, because people complain that class A is stronger then class B.

I rather see them spent all there time on creating the perfect PvE experiance then them trying to balance the game around both PvE and PvP!

[Zakalwe]

Zakalwe: You didn't read even a quarter of what I wrote to you after you asked me. Why even ask, then?

Yes, I read it, but it was all beside the point. I already acknowledged the game would require work to fully transfer it to a pvp setting, and that would include dedicated servers and all sorts. What i meant, and what I find amazing that you guys are arguing against, is that the core design, the real basic of the game, ie: the style, the movement, the shooting mechanics, are all well suited to pvp, and the rest is really only a matter of dev time and cost. It's nothing impossible, but would it be worth it? Would it be good for Warframe?

And those questions are subjective (no matter what the devs choose to focus on, it's still valid to say this game /could/ work as pvp).

The current superstructure is not prepared for PvP in the slightest. The changes needed are not small. The time would not be insignificant.

No, they are not small, but, as I've said numerous times, in the future, if Warframe has gathered enough speed and financial backing via paying customers, then it could be a viable avenue to explore.

The entire networking behind Warframe is detrimental for PvP, it would always favor the host, to degrees that would cause nothing but S#&$storms. Dedicated servers aren't cheap. Dedicated servers need a new client, a new networking engine, and staff to maintain them.

Right, which I've acknowledged, so there was no need to discuss it. IF the game got enough backing due to popularity and success, these would be viable options.

Warframe's beauty is the small client, the slim maintenance architecture and the procedural levels. PvP maps cannot be procedural, they need to be symmetrical and fair as soon as any gamemode but DM/TDM (and subsidiaries) is inserted. CTF, DOM? Forget it, needs own maps.

Your opinion of what Warframe's beauty is. It's shared by many, sure, but many would also disagree and consider these aspects to be low points. Neither is right or wrong, this is how opinions differ.

And it would be very easy to make a larger map, we already have defense which could easily be worked into a small pvp style map. Honeslty, you're trying to put up walls just to hold up your point.

My problem isn't that they don't know any better. That's okay. Not knowing something isn't a problem. But ignoring it, because it disassembles one's opinion, that is. That is deliberate ignorance/

Not what happened, as explained above.

-

Hell, I don't even want pvp for Warframe, but trying to come up with all these reasons why it wouldn't work just because you want to shoot everyone down is ridiculous. There is nothing impossible about making a pvp mode for this game, if it became successful enough all the reasons you listed for it being impossible wouldnt' even be a concern.

I've said it dozens of times: right now, it's not viable, but in the future it could be. You telling me I don't know how game dev works, or that I don't understand Warframe is all ad hominem stuff that isn't worth engaging with.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Blatantfool]

My problem isn't that they don't know any better. That's okay. Not knowing something isn't a problem. But ignoring it, because it disassembles one's opinion, that is. That is deliberate ignorance.

Other than that: Agreed. Competitive gameplay, such as races, have been discussed in the past, and those are game variants completely fine within the limitations of Warframe. I'd actually love to get two groups of 4 going and race my friends. :)

Too true. All that can be done is to try to hone the stuff we say into something easy to understand.

I still feel like my responses to him must not be hitting the mark properly.

[Ced23Ric]

You telling me I don't know how game dev works, or that I don't understand Warframe is all ad hominem stuff that isn't worth engaging with.

If you feel personally attacked, I hereby wish to extend my apologies. That was never the intention.

To explain in brief, the sum of statements wouldn't let me come to a different conclusion than a misunderstanding. You are describing a scenario that would constitute a new game with some art assets reused, but the majority of stuff under the hood changed, replaced or thrown out and new stuff put in. A different game with a similar look. Looks don't make a game, is what I am saying.

Now, if you stand by that opinion (as you are entitled to), you are disagreeing with an observation that does require some insight into a game past the presentation layer. Again, no insult intended, just a conclusion I have to draw.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Zakalwe]

Too true. All that can be done is to try to hone the stuff we say into something easy to understand.

I still feel like my responses to him must not be hitting the mark properly.

Then why not post to me and engage me in the conversation?

All youv'e said is "Zak doesn't get it", and then imply I'm not bright enough to understand.

Feel free to actually respond to my comments.

Cheers!

-

If you feel personally attacked, I hereby wish to extend my apologies. That was never the intention.

Fair, thanks.

You are describing a scenario that would constitute a new game with some art assets reused, but the majority of stuff under the hood changed, replaced or thrown out and new stuff put in.

See, this just isn't true.

The under the hood stuff would only be networking. The movement, the shooting, the actual gameplay would work perfectly in pvp. Powers would need to be looked at, but you could limit them to, say, kill streak bonuses or some other mechanic that would allow for their power to be utilised without becoming overwhelming (that's just one simple idea, of course I'd prefer to not emulate the cod model, so please let's not focus on that).

The point is, all the changes would be under the hood stuff, the actual game would play exactly the same in terms of what you do with your character. It wouldn't be a different game at all, just a different mode.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Blatantfool]

Your opinion of what Warframe's beauty is. It's shared by many, sure, but many would also disagree and consider these aspects to be low points. Neither is right or wrong, this is how opinions differ.

And it would be very easy to make a larger map, we already have defense which could easily be worked into a small pvp style map. Honeslty, you're trying to put up walls just to hold up your point.

Actually what he just told you happened to be grounded more in fact. When he used the term 'the beauty of' he was actually only sprucing up the statement.

Peer 2 Peer Competitive games tend to lag horribly and even when they don't the host has a definite advantage. Call of Duty games suffered issues like this way back.

Hell, I don't even want pvp for Warframe, but trying to come up with all these reasons why it wouldn't work just because you want to shoot everyone down is ridiculous. There is nothing impossible about making a pvp mode for this game, if it became successful enough all the reasons you listed for it being impossible wouldnt' even be a concern.

I've said it dozens of times: right now, it's not viable, but in the future it could be. You telling me I don't know how game dev works, or that I don't understand Warframe is all ad hominem stuff that isn't worth engaging with.

No one is here because of some hatred of PvP in general. That would be daft. In both mine and Ced's case you are getting a very real argument.

I'm telling you that right now - and in the forseeable future - PvP in Warframe would be a very wrong choice. It doesn't fit the sort of enjoyment Warframe is supposed to afford its players. It doesn't enhance anything in particular. It doesn't even make much sense canonically since Tenno are extremely loyal to each other.

People say "I'd like PvP" and other people say "It doesn't work"

Hell in Ced's case he has done a fantastic job explaining WHY it wouldn't work out. His reasoning is actually far more sound then my own - as I'm simply arguing it isn't the right fit for the game. He has given you a technical reason it wouldn't be fun.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Blatantfool]

Then why not post to me and engage me in the conversation?

All youv'e said is "Zak doesn't get it", and then imply I'm not bright enough to understand.

Feel free to actually respond to my comments.

Cheers!

Sorry. I don't browse the threads at all hours. I try to make a point to get back to people when I can.

Also, I've said much more then just 'I don't think you are understanding me' and blame for that is just as much on me as on you. I've spent a little while trying to find a better way to communicate my point but really I'm not sure I could say things any plainer.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Ced23Ric]

I'll actually take the door here aswell.

[Zakalwe]

Peer 2 Peer Competitive games tend to lag horribly and even when they don't the host has a definite advantage. Call of Duty games suffered issues like this way back.

Right. Explained: dedicated servers. And as I've explained pvp would only be a decent option if they had enough money to hire a dedicated team so it wouldn't detract from pve, and at that point they would be able to afford dedicated servers.

I've explained this numerous times now...

No one is here because of some hatred of PvP in general. In both mine and Ced's case you are getting a very real argument.

All I'm getting from you guys is "no pvp"m then a list of reasons why you think so, a list of reasons I've already explained away... like the dedicated server issue.

I'm telling you that right now - and in the forseeable future - PvP in Warframe would be a very wrong choice. It doesn't fit the sort of enjoyment Warframe is supposed to afford its players. It doesn't enhance anything in particular. It doesn't even make much sense canonically since Tenno are extremely loyal to each other.

Well, two things:

1. Training mode. Perfectly plausible lore safe reason.

2. YOUR opinion is it wouldnt' add anything, that doesn't make it the only right opinion

Hell in Ced's case he has done a fantastic job explaining WHY it wouldn't work out. His reasoning is actually far more sound then my own - as I'm simply arguing it isn't the right fit for the game. He has given you a technical reason it wouldn't be fun.

And I've explained that the technical reasons would not be an issue, perfectly well. If you choose to ignore them, then fine.

It all comes down to one simple thing; pvp would only be viable once the game has made enough money for DE to afford the extra rescources so no focus is taken from pve, and at that point all the issues Ced has raised become null.

Also, I've said much more then just 'I don't think you are understanding me' and blame for that is just as much on me as on you. I've spent a little while trying to find a better way to communicate my point but really I'm not sure I could say things any plainer.

I'll actually take the door here aswell.

This is fine, feel free. I still haven't read a repsonse from either of you that actually counters the points I've made. I stated from the very start that pvp wouldn't be viable now, and that it would only be viable once enough finance was achieved, so why are you telling me that it's not affordable in so many words or the tech is limited etc..? I've acknowledged this fact, many times.

Simply telling me over and over "you can't explain it clearer" isn't going to make the above any less true.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Blatantfool]

Right. Explained: dedicated servers. And as I've explained pvp would only be a decent option if they had enough money to hire a dedicated team so it wouldn't detract from pve, and at that point they would be able to afford dedicated servers.

I've explained this numerous times now...

This makes me think you don't actually understand how this works. Those are really, really expensive. Prices would certainly have to go up on a lot of things.

All I'm getting from you guys is "no pvp"m then a list of reasons why you think so, a list of reasons I've already explained away... like the dedicated server issue.

Well, two things:

1. Training mode. Perfectly plausible lore safe reason.

2. YOUR opinion is it wouldnt' add anything, that doesn't make it the only right opinion

You haven't explained away anything. You've mentioned a few things that sound real good, certainly. But some of it seems to be missing the point.

As for training? Well as far as I can tell Tenno don't need it. Those systems you implant during crafting houses that training. Further training happens in the white room when you rank up.

And you are certainly right. My opinion is just that. However I seem to be in line with the majority.

The logic I use to back up my opinion is relatively simple. Warframe, as it is now, is built to be enjoyed as a Co-Operative experience. The core of the game is a sort of sweet TPS-Dungeon Crawler Co-Op experience. Competitive PvP doesn't enhance this core and I feel that is enough reason to ignore it.

And I've explained that the technical reasons would not be an issue, perfectly well. If you choose to ignore them, then fine.

It all comes down to one simple thing; pvp would only be viable once the game has made enough money for DE to afford the extra rescources so no focus is taken from pve, and at that point all the issues Ced has raised become null.

I think a great many people would prefer that PvP just never happened. A huge amount of people seem very invested in the idea of a very expansive Co-Op experience. I don't see why - if this game does start making big money like you say - DE would ever want to slow down delivering that sort of content to try to shift focus to what is almost the polar opposite of their building blocks.