WTenno v. Jedi| Who Would Win

[(PSN)bddacres]

4 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Also, there are too many videos to bother listing on how the lightsaber is probably one of the worst ideas for a weapon out there.

In order to burn through things the way it does and still have both a finite length and its deflection properties, it would most likely be a magnetically contained bar of plasma or energy or some sort with a temperature in the plural millions. Convection would, I presume, cook your fingers like sausages if you tried to hold the thing without adequate protection. I'll hand-wave that as insufficiently analyzed technology, but it would bear mentioning in case of malfunction.

Furthermore, a near-weightless blade is actually a very bad thing. It doesn't have any real momentum to speak of thanks to its negligible mass, so all the force has to come from the user. This causes the user to fatigue faster, and means that a solid-matter weapon capable of resisting the heat energy would be better than a lightsaber against a lightsaber, because you could easily turn away blows and break the lightsaber user's own guard. Even trying to deflect a sufficiently forceful projectile could exert enough force on the blade to turn it into a hazard.

And speaking of breaking guards, the omnidirectional "cutting" edge hurts more than helps, as a rebound from a deflection or even the follow-through of a whiffed swing immediately puts the user in danger of being injured or killed by their own weapon. Unless you're using Makashi, which is basically fencing, as opposed to the other lightsaber forms, which are pretty much just Kendo with varying degrees of Bullshido involved.

well we have to use the information as it is presented in the lore. I mean immortal space kids?

[Zavenosk]

Guys, it feels like this is getting a bit derailed. 

Let us focus on the typical jedi aggregate.  The sort of saint that Cephalon Sybaris might try to add to sanctuary.

Let us establish a baseline for a jedi with optimal abilities, without god modding. 

For Tenno, i believe the aggregate should be a endgame Excalibur whose mods arn't focused on an specific skill. 

Then rather then two blobs of variables, we'll have two individuals, one of which would probably win a fight. 

Darth Revan and Luke Skywalker vs, say, covert lethality Inaros or Bladestorm Ash is not the question

The question is more along the lines of typical trained members of each aggregate. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Zezakh

[VisionAndVoice]

8 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

If it wasn't, Hunhow would have sent his own fragments to our ship to finish us off. He couldn't though because our personal ship is still inside the Void.

More likely he just doesn't know where to send fragments to. He's not omniscient, and it is a big system to find our tiny ships in.

 

As for the topic - on reddit someone mentioned that jedi would be capable of severing the link between a tenno and a frame, so there's that.

Edited July 22, 2016 by VisionAndVoice

[(PSN)bddacres]

6 minutes ago, Zezakh said:

Guys, it feels like this is getting a bit derailed. 

Let us focus on the typical jedi aggregate.  The sort of saint that Cephalon Sybaris might try to add to sanctuary.

Let us establish a baseline for a jedi with optimal abilities, without god modding. 

For Tenno, i believe the aggregate should be a endgame Excalibur whose mods arn't focused on an specific skill. 

Then rather then two blobs of variables, we'll have two individuals, one of which would probably win a fight. 

thank you mate i messed this thread up lol.

Mace Windu vs. Excalibur (Prime or non primed idk)

Happens in a planet/ universe where the force and void exist however the tenno has the same resistances to the force as it does to other tenno powers.

Edited July 22, 2016 by (PS4)bddacres

[Aimop95]

1 minute ago, VisionAndVoice said:

More likely he just doesn't know where to send fragments to. He's not omniscient, and it is a big system to find our tiny ships in.

 

As for the topic - on reddit someone mentioned that the jedi would be capable of severing the link between a tenno and a frame, so there's that.

He directed Stalker to us. If Stalker knew where to find our ships before Hunhow, why didn't he attack before? Hunhow hacked the Lotus, got the coordinates of our ship in the Void, and sent Stalker to kill us. 

Our ship is still in the Void even after the 2nd dream. The only thing not in the Void is the Moon.

[Zavenosk]

1 minute ago, (PS4)bddacres said:

thank you mate i messed this thread up lol.

Luke Skywalker vs. Excalibur (Prime or non primed idk)

Happens in a planet/ universe where the force and void exist however the tenno has the same resistances to the force as it does to other tenno powers.

To be fair, Luke Skywalker is the living embodiment of God Modding

[(PSN)bddacres]

Just now, Zezakh said:

To be fair, Luke Skywalker is the living embodiment of God Modding

mace windu? 2 swords men go at it

[VisionAndVoice]

1 minute ago, Aimop95 said:

He directed Stalker to us. If Stalker knew where to find our ships before Hunhow, why didn't he attack before? 

He didn't know. Our ship was found because it was exposed when we escaped from the reservoir facility, and was easy to follow. After that we lost the tail, and are once again untraceable until we expose ourselves.

4 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

Hunhow hacked the Lotus, got the coordinates of our ship in the Void, and sent Stalker to kill us. 

He didn't. He could access her mind once, when she connected to him, which she stopped after that. Without it, he doesnt have acces to her knowledge.

[VisionAndVoice]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)bddacres said:

2 swords men go at it

Oh please. Even a freshly awakened from the criosleep tenno can dual wield, Mace has nothing on us here.

[(PSN)bddacres]

Just now, VisionAndVoice said:

Oh please. Even a freshly awakened from the criosleep tenno can dual wield, Mace has nothing on us here.

we;; mace has shatterpoint and can sense a opponents weakness and defeat them....nvm ill pick someone else

[Zavenosk]

1 minute ago, (PS4)bddacres said:

mace windu? 2 swords men go at it

Okay now we're getting somewhere.

Mace Windu uses From VII(Juyo), which leaves him with far more offense than defense in a actual duel

Mace also can deflect blaster shots using his sabre, but thats pretty much baseline amonst high end force users

Mace is a powerful telekenetic in his own right.  Powerful enough to likely use the lightsaber boomerang trick, or even cc a warframe, but i don't think spamming it as a cc tool would end well. 

Mace uses something akin to Force Valor to beef up his physical abilities (for the sake of the argument, lets just say it puts him on par with your typical Warframe's agility and physicality)

Finally, Mace has a sturdy mind beyond usual manipulation techniques, and is a adept user of force persuasion

(i couldn't find any mention of mace having access to shatter point.  Reference?)

I'll leave it up to the rest of the community to provide a good baseline for Excalibur(prime)s abilities and limitations. 

[VisionAndVoice]

1 minute ago, (PS4)bddacres said:

mace has shatterpoint and can sense a opponents weakness and defeat them...

Then let's hope he's tankier than banshee.

[Aimop95]

2 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

He didn't know. Our ship was found because it was exposed when we escaped from the reservoir facility, and was easy to follow. After that we lost the tail, and are once again untraceable until we expose ourselves.

He didn't. He could access her mind once, when she connected to him, which she stopped after that. Without it, he doesnt have acces to her knowledge.

Ordis still talks about keeping our ship hidden in the Void, and regardless of that quote, why didn't Hunhow send in fragment reinforcements when things started going south? If our Orbiter was truly outside of the Void, Hunhow could have easily telported troops to assist Stalker. War is just a walkie talkie for Hunhow, not the actual sentient himself.

[Zavenosk]

1 minute ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Then let's hope he's tankier than banshee.

He wouldn't need to be.  Shatterpoint is pretty much as powerful as light side offensive abilities get, and is borderline god modding. 

[VisionAndVoice]

3 minutes ago, Zezakh said:

He wouldn't need to be.  Shatterpoint is pretty much as powerful as light side offensive abilities get, and is borderline god modding. 

You either missed my point or chose to ignore it. Judging from Shatterpoint's description, in effect it is equivalent to Banshee's Sonar ability. So, again, he has no real advantage here.

Edited July 22, 2016 by VisionAndVoice

[Zavenosk]

4 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

You either missed my point or chose to ignore it. Judging from Shatterpoint's description it's effect is equivalent to Banshee's Sonar ability. So, again, he has no real advantage here.

It functions the same as sonar, but the magnitude of the effect is much different.  Think of it as a form of covert lethality.  Its that good.

...

Which also means its really rare. Using it as a tool to break down barriers in an enviornment is probably something a veteran jedi knight could learn, but using it in a combat context is serious skill that really only shows up in big time jedi hero type characters. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Zezakh

[VisionAndVoice]

3 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

War is just a walkie talkie for Hunhow, not the actual sentient himself.

In a way it is, as Stalker's War is another fragment of Hunhow.

5 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

why didn't Hunhow send in fragment reinforcements when things started going south?

Why did he tell Stalker to destroy the reservoir when he could just send fragments in? Which he did, once Stalker refused to do that.

The answer to that is the same.

[Dreddeth]

1 minute ago, Zezakh said:

It functions the same as sonar, but the magnitude of the effect is much different.  Think of it as a form of covert lethality.  Its that good.

I think we just got done discussing why Shatterpoint, among other things such as choke, would not work. There's no connection to allow interaction because the force does not flow through the Tenno, regardless of whether the fight takes place in the Origin system or the Star Wars galaxy.

Force speed and strength and stuff still works, but the plot device powers are useless here, as they should be, on top of being officially retconned by Disney since the films and the Clone Wars cartoons are the only canon preserved from before the acquisition, and shatterpoint was explicitly used in exactly none of them.

[Zavenosk]

9 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

I think we just got done discussing why Shatterpoint, among other things such as choke, would not work. There's no connection to allow interaction because the force does not flow through the Tenno, regardless of whether the fight takes place in the Origin system or the Star Wars galaxy.

Force speed and strength and stuff still works, but the plot device powers are useless here, as they should be, on top of being officially retconned by Disney since the films and the Clone Wars cartoons are the only canon preserved from before the acquisition, and shatterpoint was explicitly used in exactly none of them.

fair enough. 

Given that the force would not flow through tenno, i think we can safely cut away the light side's already meager list of direct offensive powers. 

Also

Even if force choke hypothetically worked, what would be the point? 

Don't answer that, its rhetorical. 

Lets get the conversation back on topic, people. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Zezakh

[VisionAndVoice]

18 minutes ago, Zezakh said:

It functions the same as sonar, but the magnitude of the effect is much different.  Think of it as a form of covert lethality.  Its that good.

Yeah, I realised that.

Anyway, let's compare

24 minutes ago, Zezakh said:

Mace Windu uses From VII(Juyo), which leaves him with far more offense than defense in a actual duel

Mace also can deflect blaster shots using his sabre, but thats pretty much baseline amonst high end force users

Mace is a powerful telekenetic in his own right.  Powerful enough to likely use the lightsaber boomerang trick, or even cc a warframe, but i don't think spamming it as a cc tool would end well. 

Mace uses something akin to Force Valor to beef up his physical abilities (for the sake of the argument, lets just say it puts him on par with your typical Warframe's agility and physicality)

Finally, Mace has a sturdy mind beyond usual manipulation techniques, and is a adept user of force persuasion

- Several frames have means to counter pure physical offense, turn it around or simply outoffence him. Banshee can simply blast him away, Trinity can reflect damage she would sustain, Valkyr can tank it, the list goes on.

- Deflecting shots is baseline for tenno as well. Don't know about Mace, but if you recall you that moment in the episode 3 where a squad of clone troopers overwhelms a single deflecting jedi master - from what we can see in the game, a Tenno would perform better in that situation.

- Mag and Ivara can serve as telekinetic counterparts, and from what I remember, Lightsaber boomerang is comparable in performance to Drahk master's attack. Mace's throw would definitely be more accurate and have wider attack range, but I would imagine that any frame would be able to evade that with their basic mobility capabilities. (Those Tenno that can outrun Buzlok cheese in the Conclave definitely can do this too>_>).

- So, equal to baseline frame capabilities, and those can be improved with powers too.

- Give me an example of what he can do with te force persuasion before adress this point.

- As for the Shatterpoint - from it's description, it can nullify most if not all tenno defences, so the best way would be to evade it. I wonder if Limbo would be affected in the Rift.

Edited July 22, 2016 by VisionAndVoice

[Aimop95]

31 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

In a way it is, as Stalker's War is another fragment of Hunhow.

Why did he tell Stalker to destroy the reservoir when he could just send fragments in? Which he did, once Stalker refused to do that.

The answer to that is the same.

If you want to get literal, yes, War is a fragment of Hunhow, or at least, a bit of him designed to withstand the Void. But that changes nothing, because either way, the rest of Hunhow (main body and fragments) cannot enter the Void without serious repercussions.

I think you've missed the point of my scenario. Like you say, Hunhow is more than happy to let Stalker do the dirty work, he only intervenes when its necessary. However, in possiblely the most necessary moment in the entire quest, Hunhow did not intervene. Why? What prevented him from summoning a legion of fragments as soon as the Warframe began to tear apart War? Hunhow had a good 5-7 seconds to deploy his fragments (and his fragments deploy incredibly fast in Luna missions if you get scanned) before all contact with the Orbiter was lost. So the only logical reason I can see would be that Hunhow wasn't able to send fragments because the obtier was hidden in the void.

In any case, we still have Ordis' quotes (that are still running even after the Second Dream) about "keeping the Orbiter safe in the void", and the transmission radio in our liset has grineer troops talking about detecting "Void-cloak" emissions, heavily implying that our Orbiter is using the Void to hide inside of.

 

EDIT: Upon looking back at the 2nd Dream, Hunhow has 22 seconds of wondering what the hell the Warframe is doing to War before the Warframe breaks it in half. Going into a Luna mission and timing how fast Sentients spawn in when you get scanned, it takes 4 seconds for them to spawn in.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Aimop95
Research

[VisionAndVoice]

15 minutes ago, Zezakh said:

Even if force choke hypothetically worked, what would be the point?

The way I see it, Operators feel the damage that frame recieves, and could quite possibly die from the pain shock. In fact, this is how I justify that  Alad V cutting up frames was an issue at all. So, most likely it would work.

However, with frame's physiology Force Choke would most likely be terribly uneffective.

[Dreddeth]

Just now, Zezakh said:

Guys, it feels like this is getting a bit derailed. 

Let us focus on the typical jedi aggregate.  The sort of saint that Cephalon Sybaris might try to add to sanctuary.

Let us establish a baseline for a jedi with optimal abilities, without god modding. 

For Tenno, i believe the aggregate should be a endgame Excalibur whose mods arn't focused on an specific skill. 

Then rather then two blobs of variables, we'll have two individuals, one of which would probably win a fight. 

Okay...

Since Exalted Blade is, well, something so weird that even Sentients get rekt by it, I'd say it can stand up to a lightsaber. I don't think any material melee weapon we've got could, though, simply because the lightsaber is an all-but-explicit impossibility and we're working with more conventional materials.

Mind-Trick, push, pull, choke, and shatterpoint won't work. On the other hand, lightning, speed, and strength still do, and those are what consistently decide Jedi duels, so really  nothing changes except there being an implicit "no plot devices" rule. Of course, Radial Javelin is a comparatively slow projectile, and Slash Dash is, well, it's Slash Dash. I'm not sure if force senses or whatever would work on Warframes, so I'm not sure how effective Radial Blind would be.

This is of course assuming that warframe powers alter reality in accordance to the Void somehow, which is the gist of the information we have thus far. If the Void was a universal force rather than some sort of bizarre alternate dimension thing, the Excalibur's powers would be just as useless.

Whether or not the Excalibur's ranged weaponry proves effective honestly depends. Most of the Corpus arsenal is nothing a Jedi would not have seen before, and I don't think bows or throwing knives, or the Boltor series, would be all that effective since they're about as slow as blaster bolts. On the other hand, a Soma or Gorgon probably has a high enough volume of fire and a fast enough projectile velocity to overwhelm a Jedi who would choose to block rather than take cover.

Then of course we take into account defenses. The Jedi can be counted on to not wear armor, and to be fair it's pretty useless in their universe anyway, as the Ewoks will tell you, but I'm not confident in the strength of a warframe's shielding since there are things that can bypass it.

In this case I'd probably go with whoever got the drop on whom.

Also, the first one to put all their eggs into the wrong proverbial basket will probably die, so if the Jedi specializes in using the Force, or if the Excalibur's first resort is its regular melee weapon, well, there you go.

[Zavenosk]

17 minutes ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Yeah, I realised that.

Anyway, let's compare

- Several frames have means to counter pure physical offense, turn it around or simply outoffence him. Banshee can simply blast him away, Trinity can reflect damage she would sustain, Valkyr can tank it, the list goes on.

- Deflecting shots is baseline for tenno as well. Don't know about Mace, but if you recall you that moment in the episode 3 where a squad of clone troopers overwhelms a single deflecting jedi master - from what we can see in the game, a Tenno would perform better in that situation.

- Mag and Ivara can serve as telekinetic counterparts, and from what I remember, Lightsaber boomerang is comparable in performance to Drahk master's attack. Mace's throw would definitely be more accurate and have wider attack range, but I would imagine that any frame would be able to evade that with their basic mobility capabilities. (Those Tenno that can outrun Buzlok cheese in the Conclave definitely can do this too>_>).

- So, equal to baseline frame capabilities, and those can be improved with powers too.

- Give me an example of what he can do with te force persuasion before adress this point.

- As for the Shatterpoint - from it's description, it can nullify most if not all tenno defences, so the best way would be to evade it. I wonder if Limbo would be affected in the Rift.

• I think you're underselling his deflecting prowess a bit.  Mace used it once to hold off a large number of droids to buy for time.   Tenno on the other hand, are relient on energy to deflect, and thus often prefer to take the hit and use the energy elseware
• Force boomerang is just the tip of the telekentic iceburg.  Mace can force project just about anything that isn't bolted down at an opponent, which would probably have a hell of a lot of kenetic power behind it.   If it can connect, anyways
• This is a bit of a stretch, but i imagine force persuasion could be used offensively to short out a operator's connection to a warframe for a second.  It could also possibly be used to make a Kubrow or Catbrow turn on its former master.   maybe. 
• Its been pretty much decided to ignore shatterpoint by this point.

3 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Okay...

Since Exalted Blade is, well, something so weird that even Sentients get rekt by it, I'd say it can stand up to a lightsaber. I don't think any material melee weapon we've got could, though, simply because the lightsaber is an all-but-explicit impossibility and we're working with more conventional materials.

Mind-Trick, push, pull, choke, and shatterpoint won't work. On the other hand, lightning, speed, and strength still do, and those are what consistently decide Jedi duels, so really  nothing changes except there being an implicit "no plot devices" rule. Of course, Radial Javelin is a comparatively slow projectile, and Slash Dash is, well, it's Slash Dash. I'm not sure if force senses or whatever would work on Warframes, so I'm not sure how effective Radial Blind would be.

This is of course assuming that warframe powers alter reality in accordance to the Void somehow, which is the gist of the information we have thus far. If the Void was a universal force rather than some sort of bizarre alternate dimension thing, the Excalibur's powers would be just as useless.

Whether or not the Excalibur's ranged weaponry proves effective honestly depends. Most of the Corpus arsenal is nothing a Jedi would not have seen before, and I don't think bows or throwing knives, or the Boltor series, would be all that effective since they're about as slow as blaster bolts. On the other hand, a Soma or Gorgon probably has a high enough volume of fire and a fast enough projectile velocity to overwhelm a Jedi who would choose to block rather than take cover.

Then of course we take into account defenses. The Jedi can be counted on to not wear armor, and to be fair it's pretty useless in their universe anyway, as the Ewoks will tell you, but I'm not confident in the strength of a warframe's shielding since there are things that can bypass it.

In this case I'd probably go with whoever got the drop on whom.

Also, the first one to put all their eggs into the wrong proverbial basket will probably die, so if the Jedi specializes in using the Force, or if the Excalibur's first resort is its regular melee weapon, well, there you go.

• The void is universal to a point.  The operator is basically the battery that fuels the crazy
• Lets assume that non explosive semi automatic weapons & bows are parried by the saber. 
• Jedi knights arn't beyond wearing armor, they just hide it under the robes.  Although for prepardness i would give warframes a point above since Jedi Knights don't design their armor to defend against others with similer capabilities.  What would be the point?
• It seems jedi like to take cover rather then get rekt by massive firepower. 
• Radial blind's effectiveness would probably vary from victim to victim.   Some force sensitives, particularly light sided ones, can use the force as a alternative to vision, but its pretty much a coin flip on if any particular jedi can manage it. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Zezakh

[VisionAndVoice]

1 minute ago, Aimop95 said:

In any case, we still have Ordis' quotes (that are still running even after the Second Dream) about "keeping the Orbiter safe in the void", and the transmission radio in our liset has grineer troops talking about detecting "Void-cloak" emissions, heavily implying that our Orbiter is using the Void to hide inside of.

Sentients don't immediately die in the Void, so just us being in the Void wouldn't stop him.

2 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

Why? What prevented him from summoning a legion of fragments as soon as the Warframe began to tear apart War?

Because he was caught blindsided and was panicing

 

3 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

a bit of him designed to withstand the Void.

It was not designed to withstand the Void. Lotus mentions that the Sentient could not overcome their weakness to the Void period. So, it couldn't be "designed" to eb Void resistance. But again, normal Void exposure doesn't immediately kill a Sentient outright. (What we did when we escaped from the reservoir was a focused exposure, so it's a bit different).

6 minutes ago, Aimop95 said:

Hunhow is more than happy to let Stalker do the dirty work, he only intervenes when its necessary.

I don't think it's quite like that. Hunhow let's Stalker do the all the work because his fragments are finite and irreplaceable. So it's logical that he would use those only when it's absolutely necessary.