Loki balance

[armedpoop]

8 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Nyx's Chaos comes with a not insignificant chance of still being hit by enemy fire. ID makes the enemy charge at the closest target and engage it in melee, eliminating the risk of stray life-ending bullets entirely. And once the Rad proc wears off, they still can't shoot you, they have to close to melee. Enemies still can and will kill each other in melee too.

Hydroid's puddle is at best a debilitating power and if you run out of energy or disengage it before killing the enemy you're going to get wrecked against high-level opponents once they're disgorged.

Limbo's protection comes with the downside of not being able to interact with the environment, including hacking terminals, dropping Power Cells on excavators if the Cataclysm bubble is large enough, or picking up drops from the enemy.

There are downsides to the use of those powers. Not so much for Irradiating Disarm. There are reasons for "H (endless mission), need ID Loki" being spammed in Recruitment while "H (endless mission), need Nyx/Hydroid/Limbo" never was. And on the vanishingly rare occasion you ever saw any request for Hydroid, it was always for a Pilfering Hydroid. Never saw any requests at all for Nyx or Limbo though/

Stray bullets that you can dodge as well as stray batons by simply bullet jumping away after cast. 

Im sorry, is debilitation not CC? When you disengage the ability the enemies pop up in a knockdown state giving you time to get to a better position or kill them with finishers. 

So why would you use Limbo in missions where you need to interact with the environment? Why not put somebody in the rift to protect them till they or you need to interact, come out and do what you gotta, then re enter? Not that hard honestly. 

Sure there are downsides, but they are miniscule. If you think that enemies rushing you en mass isnt a down side in certain situations (mostly when you need to defend something, then you are just wrong) Those batons deal a significantly higher amount of damage than a single stray bullet does. 

 

You steered off from the original point too, you seem to be good at deflection yourself. I think im done with you lol

Edited July 26, 2016 by armedpoop

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 8:59 AM, at35z said:

Disarm isn't really the problem, the Augment is.

Radiating Disarm simply should not have happened at all.

THAT needs to be somewhat nerfed so Nyx can still own Chaos as a special ability exclusive to her.

No. not nerfed, just changed.

[Nox_Terminus]

Or you know DE could just buff Nyx and you could stop trying to "burn the witch" which doesn't exist.

[Lichcontract]

While I understand your point that Radial Disarm scales well, it doesn't make the ability OP as you would like to think.

Everyone likes to think about the utility that Loki brings and how it makes things oh so easy but they also forget that he has very little damage without weapons which is why he needs his utility to be as good as it is.

In that respect then literally any ability to mitigate damage or CC is OP as well, which is my point. If you want to take away Loki's CC for fear of being OP then take away all frames CC and Nyx entirely (her passive is a chance to disarm on literally any of her abilities, her bolts can bleed and cause radiation, her ult gives her invulnerability and damage and she has chaos which lasts much longer and affects a wider area than Irradiated Disarm).

The way you describe Radial Disarm only affects the game when you get to that point so is it not relevant to respect the amount of effort it does take to get there?

My secondary point was also if you didn't like playing to his strengths then don't use him.

Since threat is defined by the intention to inflict pain, almost every enemy in the game is a threat regardless of capacity to cause damage (which unless the entire tileset has weapons that do 0 damage to you will be a threat).

Also hello, Nullifiers exist and Radial Disarm doesn't work on them or anyone in their bubble and invis gets dispelled if you feel the need to kill them inside the bubble.

Next the Grineer also have the Drahk and Hyekka which can smell you through invisibility.

All this put together means in any faction if you do not have a decent weapon regardless of invis or Radial Disarm you are screwed which is a fair balance point for a frame with little innate damage.

The fact that at the wrong time or place you choose to radial disarm or you pop out of invis you might die goes in the face of you saying you have no threat to yourself.

Sure melee enemies are not much of a threat but that works the same for every single frame if you have the base skill to play this game well. Sure radiation causes friendly fire and a decrease in accuracy but that doesn't stop disarmed enemies from still posing a threat since if you wonder too close they will still target you and let's not forget that they still do damage.

TL;DR While your point of RD scaling well into late game is valid it runs into the problem that any frame with damage mitigation and CC would be just as OP as Loki which is not to say much since the base game itself isn't very challenging once you have a decent weapon on any frame and learn to aim and not get hit.

By your logic every frame with damage mitigation and CC is OP.

[Cenat]

1 hour ago, Deskhon said:

Honestly, why would you do radial disarm be reliant on strength? Do we have any range mods other than overextended, cunning drift and stretch? Without a good range and without a guaranteed disarm, he would be useless. Considering that you will also have to build for strength, you will say goodbye to duration and efficiency, making loki a cripple.

But in all seriousness I meant it to be that enemies far away can still snipe you down and it will force you to have to actively disarm enemies instead of one shot 10000 mile disarm

Even though yes, I do realise that it should be reduced range instead of this power strength thing, that I went wrong but this thread is so full of excitement (yes, cancer gets me excited. No, I am mot weird, ask Dual Toxocyst. ) I did not bother to change or edit anything just to see this whole thing pan out until mod locks it :3

[PoobahTheGrand]

I have to say, I'm so glad none of you are dev's and DE ignores most of the suggestions and feedback. Otherwise, I pray to RNG that it doesn't generate us an outcome that makes Warframe head downhill. I still can't believe people are calling Loki OP... I still can't believe that by the look of some of these replies, people consider anything remotely decent OP. You made it to lvl 100+ enemies? These people don't care about what tactics you used. You obviously cheesed it. Nerf it. Nerf it to the ground they say. They don't want you to win. And people have a problem with his augment because of the radiation proc. I said it before, I'll say it again.

 

Iron Skin and Warding halo

Provoke, Roar, Elemntal ward, ect

Rest, radial blind, prism, exalted blade (which is also similar in which prism blinds the enemy when it explodes and while using exalted blade you can blind the enemy for an energy cost less than the original ability), Bastile, Avalanche, Petrify, pocket sand, Sleep arrow, Divine Spears ect

Maim, old Miasma

Invisibility, smoke screen, huras, shade, prowl, invisible arrow

Slash dash, landslide 

Pilfering swarm, desecrate

Smite, mind control

Chaos, Reckoning

Hallowed Ground, Fire walker (pretty much very similar if you take away the speed boost)

Renewal, mend

 

 

Thats all I can think of arm without going in game to check them out for myself, but I'm positive there's more. Some of those examples are a bit of a stretch, but in the end, they still have similarities that step into each other's expertise. With the idea of people saying that Lokis augment steps into Nyx's boundary is ridiculous. All the abilities I listed essentially do the exact same thing in there own way. I guess Oberon takes Nyx's Thunder as well? You know, since smite and mind control are basically the same exact smite does damage. And reckoning and chaos except reckoning does damage.

The thing is, you can't bash a frame because it can do something that another one can do. Because 1/4 of Lokis abilities is similar to another frame that's bad? 

 

 

 

 

Just give us a container of salt DE because if you listen to these people that's the only thing we're gonna be able to use to defend ourselves by next year

[Jonnyrobot]

So first off, I play PUG missions all the time, basically 90%of the time. And I don't see many lokis running around these days. Why? 

Because with the likes of tank chroma, inaros, and cc volt out now, there is not much need for loki.  Why go for a squishy invisible frame with one cc when you can go for frame's that don't die or can lock down maps?

And secondly as a loki main from back when he used to be a starter frame, thats right he was at one time, his base kit is well balanced and not easy to master. Heck I don't even run with ird half of the time. I prefer to let decoy do its thing after I just disarm and then go ham on melee.

If anything decoy needs some love because it doesn't always pull enemies unlike says molt or mirages hall of mirrors.

 

 

[armedpoop]

19 minutes ago, Cenat said:

But in all seriousness I meant it to be that enemies far away can still snipe you down and it will force you to have to actively disarm enemies instead of one shot 10000 mile disarm

Even though yes, I do realise that it should be reduced range instead of this power strength thing, that I went wrong but this thread is so full of excitement (yes, cancer gets me excited. No, I am mot weird, ask Dual Toxocyst. ) I did not bother to change or edit anything just to see this whole thing pan out until mod locks it :3

I like your style, tho you should have never admitted this. The mods will probably give you a warning point for this, just an fyi. I mean you literally admitted to flame baiting. 

Though talking to people who actually think this nerf is justified, and finding their reasoning has been fun. 

[Lhudge]

Oh my god, how dare you tell such ideas to DE ?

[Golmihr]

My only real problem with Radial Disarm is that the disarm effect is permanent. Enemies should have the option to run to where their weapon landed and pick it up again. Not because of any balance but because that would make sense.

[Czygen]

The only thing I would like to be changed is his decoy, make it so that it's health scales with enemy level, similar to specters. At least it wouldn't die that easily at higher levels. 

[Draketh]

On 7/25/2016 at 3:53 AM, WrathAscending said:

I'd argue it's right up there when combined with the Augment.

So much so it encroaches heavily into Nyx's niche.

I keep reading these kind of statements in the few threads I have seen on this topic where people say Loki encroaches on Nyx's abilities .. I find that funny considering the first like 4 frames were Excal, Mag, Volt, and oh ya LOKI!! If either frame is stepping on the others toes you might want to switch teleport that thought around.

Loki has always been one of the most balanced frame's in the game and IMO should never change.

[Weidro]

still not locked ?

[(PSN)Itsa_me_MG]

Not everybody is an endgamer. Not everybody has all the best mods. Nerfing Loki would just be a kick in nuts for those still climbing. If the problem is with ID, then balance ID. Don't nerf, balance. Balance is a long term solution, whereas nerfing just makes something else get nerfed next until games are unplayable nerfed messes. The concept of maining a particular frame is short sighted and doesn't account for the situational benefits of using different frames. There's no need to nerf Loki. Its not op. it's just a good choice for certain situations.

[Czygen]

1 minute ago, Weidro said:

still not locked ?

Not until there's that one guy who goes

"INB4 LOOOCK"

At which point Letter13 will probably take notice.

[Ferah_Frithu]

I honestly do not understand why people call for nerfs in a mostly PvE game, where there is mostly team-based gameplay.

I, myself, am delighted, whenever I see a skilled player, utilizing an "overpowered" frame to the team's advantage. There are only benefits through this, so i really do not understand this way of thinking.

[Weidro]

35 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

My only real problem with Radial Disarm is that the disarm effect is permanent. Enemies should have the option to run to where their weapon landed and pick it up again. Not because of any balance but because that would make sense.

that is the effect of the normal disarm and has nothing to do with radial disarm
don't mix abilitys and augments

loki uses some kind of mysterious space magic to make the weapons disappear completely
now tell me how picking them up makes sense at all ?
they are gone !
how can you pick up something that doesn't exist anymore ?
 

[Czygen]

1 minute ago, Ferah_Frithu said:

I honestly do not understand why people call for nerfs in a mostly PvE game, where there is mostly team-based gameplay.

I, myself, am delighted, whenever I see a skilled player, utilizing an "overpowered" frame to the team's advantage. There are only benefits through this, so i really do not understand this way of thinking.

It's because some people focus too much on getting all dem keels, or cheesing everything.

[Weidro]

1 minute ago, Czygen said:

It's because some people focus too much on getting all dem keels, or cheesing everything.

actually you get more affinity if a teammate kills

so yeah there is no reason to complain at all

[Czygen]

1 minute ago, Weidro said:

actually you get more affinity if a teammate kills

so yeah there is no reason to complain at all

I'm just saying that some people don't like it when they see an Ash killing everything, making you feel useless.

Or when they see a Mirage with a Synoid Simulor.

Or when that one guy with a Tonkor cheeses an entire crowd with one grenade.

Affinity has nothing to do with it imo.

[(PSN)sew310]

Inb4 lock 

[Weidro]

1 minute ago, Czygen said:

I'm just saying that some people don't like it when they see an Ash killing everything, making you feel useless.

Or when they see a Mirage with a Synoid Simulor.

Or when that one guy with a Tonkor cheeses an entire crowd with one grenade.

an average player should be able to steal kills with every frame from all other frames
no exceptions

take it as a challenge if there is one guy getting most kills
oh and git gud

[Golmihr]

6 minutes ago, Weidro said:

that is the effect of the normal disarm and has nothing to do with radial disarm
don't mix abilitys and augments

loki uses some kind of mysterious space magic to make the weapons disappear completely
now tell me how picking them up makes sense at all ?
they are gone !
how can you pick up something that doesn't exist anymore ?
 

He should strip away they protective gear instead then.

 

Anyway. The only thing the skill description says is that he uses a pulse of manipulative energy dealing impact damage. That does give the impression that the weapons get flung out of their hands. Unless of course the pulse squeeze the weapons into clubs.

[Lokime]

selfpromoting unashamedly B)

[Czygen]

1 minute ago, Weidro said:

an average player should be able to steal kills with every frame from all other frames
no exceptions

take it as a challenge if there is one guy getting most kills
oh and git gud

Will do then.

But for now, I second the locking motion.