Heliocor Is the Perfect Opportunity for a Simaris Mini-Update

[Teridax68]

The release of the Heliocor made scanning more accessible to a great deal many players: aside from being pretty interesting and fun to use, the Heliocor is also good from a design standpoint in that it's a weapon deliberately designed to not be top-tier in damage capabilities, while still having a unique advantage that no other melee weapon can provide. Its status as a Simaris-exclusive weapon has also, in a way, given him a full item line, complete with a pretty consistent aesthetic.

With that said, the Heliocor isn't perfect, and neither are its "sister items", namely the Simulor and Gammacor: whereas the Heliocor's combat inferiority to a similar competitor (i.e. the Fragor Prime) is made up significantly by its unique effect, the latter two are strictly outclassed by their Synoid counterparts on raw DPS alone, before even factoring the Syndicate proc. Even more generally, the entire scanning minigame has aged somewhat: the Codex scanner is made completely redundant by the Synthesis scanner in gameplay and usability (the Codex scanner has limited uses, Simaris's scanner can be used for infinite reputation farming), and whereas the latter is richly tied to a major character and even a quest line (The New Strange), the former is just a thing you're expected to buy on the market. 

The Codex itself is a completionist's nightmare: aside from not telling players at all what they should be researching, which leads them to look up another database just to figure out how to fill up their own, it keeps many entries of items and enemies that are excessively difficult or impossible to access (Stalker's non-Shadow counterpart is essentially impossible to currently research). On a more basic level, it's not particularly great for the game's inner database, which gives valuable information on enemy strengths, weaknesses and mod drops, to offer all of this information after a player's spent time dealing with them, often extensively. Sure, we have a wiki with this same information, but the game shouldn't rely on a third-party site to provide data it has all the tools to readily present.

Basically, scanning and Simaris weapons need an update. Here are my suggestions:

• Switch the Heliocor's damage to magnetic, with adjustments if necessary, and port its scan-on-kill effect to the Simulor and Gammacor: Basically, these items should be standardized relative to each other. The Heliocor is meant to be straight-up weaker than the Fragor/Fragor Prime, but impact damage doesn't make too much sense for its design, whereas magnetic damage would. The Simulor and Gammacor currently have no real place in the game, and will continue to do so until they have a niche of their own: since the Synoid versions are meant to be combat upgrades, it would make sense for the originals to be their "true" research versions, trading off raw damage for scanning power. It would complete the set, and allow for players to tailor their loadout better around research.
• Take the Gammacor blueprint out of the market, and the Helios blueprint out of Dojo research and make them purchaseable through Simaris standing: Perhaps less of a desirable suggestion, as Simaris reputation can be difficult to farm, but the Gammacor feels like it belongs as a Simaris weapon, and would definitely be one if it had a scan effect. The same applies to the Helios, which is Simaris's preferred sentinel above all else in both lore and gameplay. Another thing to bear in mind is that players now earn a free Gammacor blueprint by completing the Neptune junction on Uranus, so new players would only truly have to farm for one.
• Remove the Codex scanner completely, converting all charges into Synthesis scanner charges: This is pretty basic. There is nothing the Codex scanner does that the Synthesis scanner doesn't, and it has no real place in the game now that scanning is tied so heavily to Simaris. At best, it's a relic of a time when the scanning minigame was still in its earlier stages, and at worst it's a trap for newer players who may not yet know that it's outclassed in every way by the Synthesis scanner. As an extension to this, the Helios should provide a bit of Simaris standing with each scan, and the Heliocor should probably give a certain amount of standing on kill, as should any other potential scan-on-kill weapon, though this amount could also be reduced relative to its current value in compensation.
• Revamp the Codex to provide full information on every enemy and item from the start, and give players access to every enemy in the Simulacrum: Let's face it, researching enemies into the Codex isn't always fun: some enemies are so rare that finding them (and scanning them before your teammates kill them) is a crapshoot, scanning enemies itself breaks from the natural flow of combat and movement, and in general the act of scanning doesn't mesh well with team play, where most players will (and should) shoot any incoming enemy without caring about whether someone's researching them. It's also difficult to know which enemies are left to scan when the Codex doesn't disclose anything about them at all, and the Simulacrum is meant to be this sandbox mode to test enemies and builds, which shouldn't require a grind, even if the sense of completion is a nice touch. In the end, scanning should be for Simaris reputation first and foremost, and it makes little sense for a community of Tenno to not share Codex information among each other, even if Simaris's own Synthesis research would be privy to him only.
• Turn enemy-specific research into repeatable Simaris quests: Even though "scan X of this thing" might not be properly universally applicable, it can still be a fun little quest to undertake. On the flipside, Simaris's quests are mostly fun and useful, but all focus on going through the synthesis minigame with specific targets. It would be nice to have a lighter version of that quest that would just ask you to scan a certain number of a particular enemy (e.g. "scan 20 Hyekka Masters"), with an appropriate reward in the end, which would also allow players to get Simaris rep without having to commit as hard.
• Remove power immunity from Synthesis targets: This is more of a pet peeve of mine than a serious gameplay issue, but there's no real use to making Synthesis targets immune to Warframe powers other than to make people splurge more on Kinetic Siphon traps. It's also worth noting that this power immunity is seriously inconsistent: some abilities apply crowd control but, for some reason, disable the target's scanning points (Nezha's Divine Spears and Rhino's Stomp are both primary examples), other abilities don't apply their crowd control at all, others still fully apply crowd control without disabling anything (Trinity's Well of Life is basically a free Kinetic Siphon), and some rare abilities don't even need to apply crowd control to be effective (Atlas's Tectonics can shut targets into small rooms, allowing for easy scanning). Power immunity isn't really worth adding to Synthesis targets, as they're not really important enough to require serious anti-cheese protection, it's not a fun way to implement difficulty in general, and it somewhat mitigates the possibility of bringing frames specifically to facilitate research, which should be a valid choice in most contexts.

So there, my 2 cents on the Heliocor, scanning and Simaris. What do you think of these suggestions? Anything you agree or disagree with in particular? Anything you'd want to add?

Edited August 3, 2016 by Teridax68

[Arxfiend]

I like most of it.

But scanning is probably one of the more vital parts of the game, as it is a research aspect. We can't just start off knowing every weakness.

And, the Helios sentinel is corpus tech, so it makes no sense to remove the BP from the corpus lab. I can see allowing the purchase of a pre-built Helios from Simaris, like that of the starter frames from Teshin.

[Dualstar]

Id just like to say, half the reason the Heliocor even exists is so a (better) Synoid version of it will be introduced later.

In fact i caught mention that syndicate melee weapons were going to be on display this friday

[Praxxor]

NOPE, give the ability to Gammacor, but if you give it to Simulor as well, then everyone will have effortless scans on everything

[-CCC-Secret]

17 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

NOPE, give the ability to Gammacor, but if you give it to Simulor as well, then everyone will have effortless scans on everything

I think he means on the regular Simulor. I think that part is a good idea as it gives players incentive to use the regular over the Synoid counterpart.

The only problem I have with this whole idea is having everything in the Codex. The only reason why information is on the Wiki is because someone took the time and effort to scan those enemies to get it. I agree it shouldn't be there, but we shouldn't have it in game for free either.

[Praxxor]

21 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

I think he means on the regular Simulor. I think that part is a good idea as it gives players incentive to use the regular over the Synoid counterpart.

The only problem I have with this whole idea is having everything in the Codex. The only reason why information is on the Wiki is because someone took the time and effort to scan those enemies to get it. I agree it shouldn't be there, but we shouldn't have it in game for free either.

Well the regular Simulor is really powerful as well, doesn't matter which version gets the buff, it's gonna end up in a huge amount of players having a full codex while they did basically nothing.

[-CCC-Secret]

19 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

Well the regular Simulor is really powerful as well, doesn't matter which version gets the buff, it's gonna end up in a huge amount of players having a full codex while they did basically nothing.

Haven't used base Simulor myself, it's tedious to get Simaris' target, especially if you run public and this one person just kills it. But I see your point, if they do implement this, maybe lowering the stats of Simulor to compensate?

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The release of the Heliocor made scanning more accessible to a great deal many players: aside from being pretty interesting and fun to use, the Heliocor is also good from a design standpoint in that it's a weapon deliberately designed to not be top-tier in damage capabilities, while still having a unique advantage that no other melee weapon can provide. Its status as a Simaris-exclusive weapon has also, in a way, given him a full item line, complete with a pretty consistent aesthetic.

With that said, the Heliocor isn't perfect, and neither are its "sister items", namely the Simulor and Gammacor: whereas the Heliocor's combat inferiority to a similar competitor (i.e. the Fragor Prime) is made up significantly by its unique effect, the latter two are strictly outclassed by their Synoid counterparts on raw DPS alone, before even factoring the Syndicate proc. Even more generally, the entire scanning minigame has aged somewhat: the Codex scanner is made completely redundant by the Synthesis scanner in gameplay and usability (the Codex scanner has limited uses, Simaris's scanner can be used for infinite reputation farming), and whereas the latter is richly tied to a major character and even a quest line (The New Strange), the former is just a thing you're expected to buy on the market. 

The Codex itself is a completionist's nightmare: aside from not telling players at all what they should be researching, which leads them to look up another database just to figure out how to fill up their own, it keeps many entries of items and enemies that are excessively difficult or impossible to access (Stalker's non-Shadow counterpart is essentially impossible to currently research). On a more basic level, it's not particularly great for the game's inner database, which gives valuable information on enemy strengths, weaknesses and mod drops, to offer all of this information after a player's spent time dealing with them, often extensively. Sure, we have a wiki with this same information, but the game shouldn't rely on a third-party site to provide data it has all the tools to readily present.

Basically, scanning and Simaris weapons need an update. Here are my suggestions:

• Switch the Heliocor's damage to magnetic, with adjustments if necessary, and port its scan-on-kill effect to the Simulor and Gammacor: Basically, these items should be standardized relative to each other. The Heliocor is meant to be straight-up weaker than the Fragor/Fragor Prime, but impact damage doesn't make too much sense for its design, whereas magnetic damage would. The Simulor and Gammacor currently have no real place in the game, and will continue to do so until they have a niche of their own: since the Synoid versions are meant to be combat upgrades, it would make sense for the originals to be their "true" research versions, trading off raw damage for scanning power. It would complete the set, and allow for players to tailor their loadout better around research.
• Take the Gammacor blueprint out of the market, and the Helios blueprint out of Dojo research and make them purchaseable through Simaris standing: Perhaps less of a desirable suggestion, as Simaris reputation can be difficult to farm, but the Gammacor feels like it belongs as a Simaris weapon, and would definitely be one if it had a scan effect. The same applies to the Helios, which is Simaris's preferred sentinel above all else in both lore and gameplay. Another thing to bear in mind is that players now earn a free Gammacor blueprint by completing the Neptune junction on Uranus, so new players would only truly have to farm for one.
• Remove the Codex scanner completely, converting all charges into Synthesis scanner charges: This is pretty basic. There is nothing the Codex scanner does that the Synthesis scanner doesn't, and it has no real place in the game now that scanning is tied so heavily to Simaris. At best, it's a relic of a time when the scanning minigame was still in its earlier stages, and at worst it's a trap for newer players who may not yet know that it's outclassed in every way by the Synthesis scanner. As an extension to this, the Helios should provide a bit of Simaris standing with each scan, and the Heliocor should probably give a certain amount of standing on kill, as should any other potential scan-on-kill weapon, though this amount could also be reduced relative to its current value in compensation.
• Revamp the Codex to provide full information on every enemy and item from the start, and give players access to every enemy in the Simulacrum: Let's face it, researching enemies into the Codex isn't always fun: some enemies are so rare that finding them (and scanning them before your teammates kill them) is a crapshoot, scanning enemies itself breaks from the natural flow of combat and movement, and in general the act of scanning doesn't mesh well with team play, where most players will (and should) shoot any incoming enemy without caring about whether someone's researching them. It's also difficult to know which enemies are left to scan when the Codex doesn't disclose anything about them at all, and the Simulacrum is meant to be this sandbox mode to test enemies and builds, which shouldn't require a grind, even if the sense of completion is a nice touch. In the end, scanning should be for Simaris reputation first and foremost, and it makes little sense for a community of Tenno to not share Codex information among each other, even if Simaris's own Synthesis research would be privy to him only.
• Turn enemy-specific research into repeatable Simaris quests: Even though "scan X of this thing" might not be properly universally applicable, it can still be a fun little quest to undertake. On the flipside, Simaris's quests are mostly fun and useful, but all focus on going through the synthesis minigame with specific targets. It would be nice to have a lighter version of that quest that would just ask you to scan a certain number of a particular enemy (e.g. "scan 20 Hyekka Masters"), with an appropriate reward in the end, which would also allow players to get Simaris rep without having to commit as hard.
• Remove power immunity from Synthesis targets: This is more of a pet peeve of mine than a serious gameplay issue, but there's no real use to making Synthesis targets immune to Warframe powers other than to make people splurge more on Kinetic Siphon traps. It's also worth noting that this power immunity is seriously inconsistent: some abilities apply crowd control but, for some reason, disable the target's scanning points (Nezha's Divine Spears and Rhino's Stomp are both primary examples), other abilities don't apply their crowd control at all, others still fully apply crowd control without disabling anything (Trinity's Well of Life is basically a free Kinetic Siphon), and some rare abilities don't even need to apply crowd control to be effective (Atlas's Tectonics can shut targets into small rooms, allowing for easy scanning). Power immunity isn't really worth adding to Synthesis targets, as they're not really important enough to require serious anti-cheese protection, it's not a fun way to implement difficulty in general, and it somewhat mitigates the possibility of bringing frames specifically to facilitate research, which should be a valid choice in most contexts.

So there, my 2 cents on the Heliocor, scanning and Simaris. What do you think of these suggestions? Anything you agree or disagree with in particular? Anything you'd want to add?

Well said. I agree, especially about power immunity.

[Teridax68]

12 hours ago, H2K3 said:

The Helios sentinel is corpus tech, so it makes no sense to remove the BP from the corpus lab. I can see allowing the purchase of a pre-built Helios from Simaris, like that of the starter frames from Teshin.

The Diriga is also Grineer tech, but is purchaseable through the market only, though. Perhaps that's more a reason to move the Diriga to the Dojo (that way, every non-Tenno faction research tree would have an associated Sentinel) than it is to take the Helios out of it, but I'd say the Helios would still be a better fit for Simaris even just on lore terms, since the only time you see them in the environment is when you free a bunch for him during The New Strange, and the theme of research and deconstruction is a slightly better fit for him than the Corpus, who do perform research, but usually by capturing Orokin-derived assets and dissecting them thereafter. On a larger level, it would also move every scan-related item to Simaris, which I think would make for cleaner presentation, especially for newer players. If you've done the Helios research already, you should obviously keep the BP in the Dojo, or some equivalent, so this shouldn't be about flat-out taking away something many players have sunk time and resources into.

12 hours ago, H2K3 said:

Scanning is probably one of the more vital parts of the game, as it is a research aspect. We can't just start off knowing every weakness.

 

11 hours ago, secret9005 said:

The only problem I have with this whole idea is having everything in the Codex. The only reason why information is on the Wiki is because someone took the time and effort to scan those enemies to get it. I agree it shouldn't be there, but we shouldn't have it in game for free either.

As much as I agree that gaining knowledge about enemies and the environment is cool, it's kind of backwards for the learning experience: a new player may start out with no real knowledge of flesh/shield/armor types, damage types or how they interact with each other, and ends up being forced to consult a third-party site to get information that is already fully documented in-game, even though the Codex also offers a full set of tutorials explaining the basics of gameplay. By contrast, a more experienced player will have already either consulted the wiki or played around with damage combos well enough to know what works against whom, and at that point the Codex isn't really the go-to place for learning about enemies anymore. I'm a big fan of Wikia, and have contributed a great deal many edits on wikis for other video games (8k+ on the BioShock Wiki and 10k+ on the League of Legends Wiki), but while I recognize the value of a wiki in informing players, I absolutely do not think it should be a primary source of information for players if the devs can help it. If players go to the wiki first and the game's official database second (or not at all), that means a) the game is not doing a proper job of informing its players correctly, and b) the developers are using a third-party site as a crutch for a job they should be doing. In the case of Warframe, all of the data's already there, fully formatted and complete with cool dioramas, it's just a matter of making it accessible to those who need it most, and a proper understanding of the game isn't something you should "pay" for, through time commitment or anything else, to gain.

11 hours ago, Praxxor said:

Well the regular Simulor is really powerful as well, doesn't matter which version gets the buff, it's gonna end up in a huge amount of players having a full codex while they did basically nothing.

 

11 hours ago, secret9005 said:

I see your point, if they do implement this, maybe lowering the stats of Simulor to compensate?

I can agree with reducing the Simulor's stats even further, or at least making it less of a room blender than its Synoid counterpart. Personally, I'd be up for seriously reducing the AoE of its spheres, which would establish a clear separation between the standard Simulor, which would be for marking specific targets or tightly-packed enemies for scanning, and the Synoid Simulor, which would have massive AoE kill potential through its spheres and Syndicate proc. If we're still running along the idea that these items would be for farming Simaris rep, I'd also be up for reducing the amount of reputation gained across the board from research weapon kills, while still having the Synthesis Scanner provide a much bigger bonus (the per-kill bonus could also be adjusted from weapon to weapon, so the Simulor could provide the smallest amount of standing and the Heliocor the largest per individual kill).

Edited August 4, 2016 by Teridax68

[Arxfiend]

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The Diriga is also Grineer tech, but is purchaseable through the market only, though. Perhaps that's more a reason to move the Diriga to the Dojo (that way, every non-Tenno faction research tree would have an associated Sentinel) than it is to take the Helios out of it, but I'd say the Helios would still be a better fit for Simaris even just on lore terms, since the only time you see them in the environment is when you free a bunch for him during The New Strange, and the theme of research and deconstruction is a slightly better fit for him than the Corpus, who do perform research, but usually by capturing Orokin-derived assets and dissecting them thereafter. On a larger level, it would also move every scan-related item to Simaris, which I think would make for cleaner presentation, especially for newer players. If you've done the Helios research already, you should obviously keep the BP in the Dojo, or some equivalent, so this shouldn't be about flat-out taking away something many players have sunk time and resources into.

 

As much as I agree that gaining knowledge about enemies and the environment is cool, it's kind of backwards for the learning experience: a new player may start out with no real knowledge of flesh/shield/armor types, damage types or how they interact with each other, and ends up being forced to consult a third-party site to get information that is already fully documented in-game, even though the Codex also offers a full set of tutorials explaining the basics of gameplay. By contrast, a more experienced player will have already either consulted the wiki or played around with damage combos well enough to know what works against whom, and at that point the Codex isn't really the go-to place for learning about enemies anymore. I'm a big fan of Wikia, and have contributed a great deal many edits on wikis for other video games (8k+ on the BioShock Wiki and 10k+ on the League of Legends Wiki), but while I recognize the value of a wiki in informing players, I absolutely do not think it should be a primary source of information for players if the devs can help it. If players go to the wiki first and the game's official database second (or not at all), that means a) the game is not doing a proper job of informing its players correctly, and b) the developers are using a third-party site as a crutch for a job they should be doing. In the case of Warframe, all of the data's already there, fully formatted and complete with cool dioramas, it's just a matter of making it accessible to those who need it most, and a proper understanding of the game isn't something you should "pay" for, through time commitment or anything else, to gain.

1) No Idea why they put Diriga on the market. Probably because it requires no special components. And how does it make more sense? The helios is a corpus sentinel. It has fieldtron components that allow it to use the deconstructor. The parts are all high-tier corpus tech. Lore-wise, the Helios production is owned by Corpus, aside from the ones that the tenno build. It makes no sense lore-wise.

2) The scanning is still the part of game. It rewards experience, and is still viable. Pre-completing the codex serves no real purpose anyways. People will still consult the Wiki for hotbox points and for tips. Even on enemies you completed, do you really look at it often?

[Shockwave-]

13 hours ago, secret9005 said:

I think he means on the regular Simulor. I think that part is a good idea as it gives players incentive to use the regular over the Synoid counterpart.

The only problem I have with this whole idea is having everything in the Codex. The only reason why information is on the Wiki is because someone took the time and effort to scan those enemies to get it. I agree it shouldn't be there, but we shouldn't have it in game for free either.

everything should be IN the codex though, jsut with no infomration at 0 scans.

I mean we should know what we have to scan.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, H2K3 said:

1) No Idea why they put Diriga on the market. Probably because it requires no special components. And how does it make more sense? The helios is a corpus sentinel. It has fieldtron components that allow it to use the deconstructor. The parts are all high-tier corpus tech. Lore-wise, the Helios production is owned by Corpus, aside from the ones that the tenno build. It makes no sense lore-wise.

No, lore-wise all Sentinels are part of an enclave of their own that was discovered by the Tenno, as per the new Cephalon Fragment lore. The only known non-Tenno Sentinel user is Simaris, who uses Helios drones for his research. No major enemy faction owns, produces or uses Sentinels, and while some of them have tech and appearances similar to a specific faction, they don't belong to them. Arguing from build components makes little sense either, unless you want to assume the Corpus have industrial access to Forma in order to manufacture their Provas, and more generally that's backwards reasoning: craftable items are designed first then given components after, with those components varying according to where you obtain the blueprint and usually not being all that related to the end result (e.g. most sidearms requiring neurodes makes no real technical sense, they're just there to make building them more difficult).

6 hours ago, H2K3 said:

2) The scanning is still the part of game. It rewards experience, and is still viable. Pre-completing the codex serves no real purpose anyways. People will still consult the Wiki for hotbox points and for tips. Even on enemies you completed, do you really look at it often?

I agree, scanning is still a part of the game and is viable. My point is not to render the Wiki useless (it has plenty of other useful information) or to remove scanning, it's to make the Codex a proper source of information, which it already is in every other respect, rather than a collectible card folder for enemies and items that gives no information as to what you should even be researching. I do consult the Codex for information on vulnerabilities and mod drops, and I'd consult it a lot more often if it were complete from the beginning (I would've also been hugely grateful if it had been a proper source of enemy information when I started playing, as I was still figuring out damage and resistance types).

Edited August 4, 2016 by Teridax68

[Arxfiend]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

No, lore-wise all Sentinels are part of an enclave of their own that was discovered by the Tenno, as per the new Cephalon Fragment lore. The only known non-Tenno Sentinel user is Simaris, who uses Helios drones for his research. No major enemy faction owns, produces or uses Sentinels, and while some of them have tech and appearances similar to a specific faction, they don't belong to them. Arguing from build components makes little sense either, unless you want to assume the Corpus have industrial access to Forma in order to manufacture their Provas, and more generally that's backwards reasoning: craftable items are designed first then given components after, with those components varying according to where you obtain the blueprint and usually not being all that related to the end result (e.g. most sidearms requiring neurodes makes no real technical sense, they're just there to make building them more difficult).

The Helios technology is still all Corpus, nonetheless. Corpus created the magnetic field technology it uses to hold itself together. Corpus probably created it's optical. I'm not talking about the Fieldtron from the standpoint of crafting requirement. I'm talking about the actual technology involved.

And, Formae are Orokin technology, last I checked. The Corpus would, therefore, have access to Formae.

[Teridax68]

48 minutes ago, H2K3 said:

The Helios technology is still all Corpus, nonetheless. Corpus created the magnetic field technology it uses to hold itself together. Corpus probably created it's optical. I'm not talking about the Fieldtron from the standpoint of crafting requirement. I'm talking about the actual technology involved.

And, Formae are Orokin technology, last I checked. The Corpus would, therefore, have access to Formae.

The Corpus doesn't have on-demand access to Orokin technology. They can attempt to replicate Orokin tech, and in Alad V's case, modify it, but they cannot produce genuine Orokin items, certainly not Forma, and much less mass-produce it for the purpose of low-grade weaponry. The Helios using Corpus technology still doesn't make it Corpus, so even if it can have a place in Dojo Energy Research, that doesn't really mandate its space there. Pointless lore nitpicking aside, on pure gameplay terms, the Helios makes more sense as part of Simaris's offerings, rather than Dojo research, as it's a scan-based Sentinel, and it would make more overall sense to have all scan-based additions to the Tenno arsenal originate from Simaris.

[Arxfiend]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

The Corpus doesn't have on-demand access to Orokin technology. They can attempt to replicate Orokin tech, and in Alad V's case, modify it, but they cannot produce genuine Orokin items, certainly not Forma, and much less mass-produce it for the purpose of low-grade weaponry. The Helios using Corpus technology still doesn't make it Corpus, so even if it can have a place in Dojo Energy Research, that doesn't really mandate its space there. Pointless lore nitpicking aside, on pure gameplay terms, the Helios makes more sense as part of Simaris's offerings, rather than Dojo research, as it's a scan-based Sentinel, and it would make more overall sense to have all scan-based additions to the Tenno arsenal originate from Simaris.

The Braton would like to disagree with that. Corpus have probably the second highest access to Orokin tech, seconded by the Tenno. Formae aren't hard to produce, especially for the Corpus, and seem to be fairly common merchandise. Remember, the single-use blueprint is for gameplay purposes. Any half-&#! man can probably remember to put an Orokin Cell, a Morphic, A Neurodes, and a Neural Sensor in an oven, set to 3000 degrees, and bake for 24 hours.

The sentinel is a science-type sentinel. And while scanning is what Simaris revolves around, you are also forgetting that limiting it to Simaris would have a negative impact on its obtaining. The thing would probably be 50k+ reputation. And even if you did earn the maximum reputaiton per day, not even people who maxed out their MR could get it easily.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, H2K3 said:

The Braton would like to disagree with that.

That's the Braton, not the Braton Prime. Like I said, the Corpus can try to replicate Orokin tech, but can't produce actual Orokin items.

1 hour ago, H2K3 said:

Formae aren't hard to produce, especially for the Corpus, and seem to be fairly common merchandise.

Got a lore reference for that? Forma doesn't seem to really exist outside of Orokin presence and Tenno use, and the only non-Tenno character who mentions it is Tyl Regor, who considers it to be an artifact.

1 hour ago, H2K3 said:

Remember, the single-use blueprint is for gameplay purposes. Any half-&#! man can probably remember to put an Orokin Cell, a Morphic, A Neurodes, and a Neural Sensor in an oven, set to 3000 degrees, and bake for 24 hours.

It's strange how you handwave the single-use Forma blueprint as "just for gameplay purposes", yet for some bizarre reason hold onto the notion that an item's crafting requirements somehow define their lore. Forma isn't just three resources and a bunch of credits thrown together, it's one of the most complex pieces of Orokin tech, and is the secret behind their constructs. Orokin tech is still largely a mystery in the time period Warframe takes place in, so it would make little sense for the Corpus to know exactly how to mass-produce its core components.

1 hour ago, H2K3 said:

The sentinel is a science-type sentinel. And while scanning is what Simaris revolves around, you are also forgetting that limiting it to Simaris would have a negative impact on its obtaining. The thing would probably be 50k+ reputation. And even if you did earn the maximum reputaiton per day, not even people who maxed out their MR could get it easily.

So? The current Helios requires about three tiers of research before you can unlock it, which amounts to a little over a week's worth of time spent waiting, plus many associated resources (and this doesn't even take into account Dojo construction). In that time, any player who has decently advanced in the game should be able to get far more than the necessary Simaris standing. Farming Simaris reputation isn't hard, and you can cap out in about one to four solid chunks by initiating daily quests and specific research, so if anything, it would be easier to obtain than it is now, even if it cost 100k standing. In the end, though, this isn't a question of ease of access, it's a matter of consistency, and even if placing it under Simaris's offerings would make obtaining it slower for you, that wouldn't lock it out of availability.

[Arxfiend]

The Formae are used for every Orokin construct. They can alter shape. The Corpus are guaranteed to have many, having more access to and interest in Orokin tech. Remember, the Corpus are hellbent on Orokin tech. I guarantee you they know how to create their materials. The Corpus are advanced, and know more about the Orokin technology than we. You also have to remember, Formae blueprints are also battle-pay rewards. The Grineer have their blueprints too. The Corpus have both the blueprint, and the resources, if they aren't already drowning in salvaged forma. It makes perfect sense.

And I never said that the crafting requirement doesn't define the lore. You tried to compare apples and oranges. I said that the blueprints are only single-use for gameplay purpose. The fieldtron contains super-heated plasma. Do you know what you can do with plasma? Magnetic fields. You know what keeps Helios segments together? Not magic. The Helios sections are held by magnetic fields, which are most easily achieved by plasma, as plasma is magnetic by default.

And, I never bothered with the codex until Simaris came. I bought a S#&$-ton of his charges, and went on hunts for every enemy.

I have obtained, totally, downwards of 175,000 Simaris standing total since his release. Even at MR10, I find getting reputation for him difficult, and rarely do I max him out. The daily enemies aren't guaranteed spawns. It took me two weeks to complete the corrupted Heavy gunner daily. And I exhausted over 60 keys trying

Lore-wise, and even in some aspects of gameplay, moving Helios to Simaris exclusive makes little sense. Simaris doesn't own the codex. He owns the Simulacrum. He favors them because they are easily reconnaissance sentinels. Hell, he seems to be taking an interest in Carrier too. Why not move that one there?

[Zookes]

I am against removal of the Codex Scanner.
I use it to discover unidentified codex objects in an area by listening for the audio cue, and the Synthesis Scanner always blips, even if everything has been previously scanned.

[-CCC-Secret]

13 minutes ago, Zookes said:

I am against removal of the Codex Scanner.
I use it to discover unidentified codex objects in an area by listening for the audio cue, and the Synthesis Scanner always blips, even if everything has been previously scanned.

You know that if they remove the Codex scanner they can add that feature to the Synthesis scanner. As of now there's no reason to use the Codex scanner over the Synthesis one.

[Zookes]

4 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

You know that if they remove the Codex scanner they can add that feature to the Synthesis scanner. As of now there's no reason to use the Codex scanner over the Synthesis one.

That is not a feature for the Synthesis Scanner to have, as it is a Synthesis Scanner.

The Synthesis Scanner blips when there is something nearby that can be scanned for synthesis or Simaris faction points.
The Codex Scanner blips when there is something nearby that can be scanned for the Codex.
 

This functionality is not redundant. They are both different scanners with different purposes.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Zookes

[Teridax68]

On 8/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, H2K3 said:

The Formae are used for every Orokin construct. They can alter shape. The Corpus are guaranteed to have many, having more access to and interest in Orokin tech. Remember, the Corpus are hellbent on Orokin tech. I guarantee you they know how to create their materials.

Having access to a resource and being able to create it from scratch are two different things. Again, I challenge you to provide a reference confirming that the Corpus can create original Orokin technology, which I repeat again would straight-up conflict with established lore, as Corpus technology is vastly less advanced than Orokin tech, and visibly unaffected by Forma.

On 8/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, H2K3 said:

The Corpus are advanced, and know more about the Orokin technology than we.

This is flat-out untrue, and confuses player perception with in-game lore. The Tenno can create Orokin tech from blueprints and use some of the most advanced technology from the Orokin era on a routine basis. If the Corpus were more advanced than the Tenno on Orokin knowledge, they would not be harvesting us for "Orokin secrets".

On 8/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, H2K3 said:

You also have to remember, Formae blueprints are also battle-pay rewards.

This yet again confuses gameplay with lore, and assumes that the Corpus or Grineer are only handing out Forma or potatoes because they can produce them, when a much more likely explanation would be that they are giving out a rare resource that they found in an Orokin ruin (and then, they wouldn't be "drowning in salvaged forma").

On 8/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, H2K3 said:

And I never said that the crafting requirement doesn't define the lore. You tried to compare apples and oranges. I said that the blueprints are only single-use for gameplay purpose. The fieldtron contains super-heated plasma. Do you know what you can do with plasma? Magnetic fields. You know what keeps Helios segments together? Not magic. The Helios sections are held by magnetic fields, which are most easily achieved by plasma, as plasma is magnetic by default.

You know what holds the plasma together? Magnets. Therefore, the Helios is manufactured by Ancient Greek shepherds.

In case that didn't highlight the flaw in the quoted argument, the components making up the Helios, which I again repeat could really be swapped out for any other resource (pretty much any sentinel could be using magnetic fields in some form or another, e.g. the Carrier for its Vacuum precept), do not indicate the manufacturer of the final product. Even if you took nothing but Corpus tech to construct the Helios, that would not make the Helios a Corpus-manufactured sentinel, as it would ultimately be a Tenno construct.

On 8/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, H2K3 said:

I have obtained, totally, downwards of 175,000 Simaris standing total since his release. Even at MR10, I find getting reputation for him difficult, and rarely do I max him out. The daily enemies aren't guaranteed spawns. It took me two weeks to complete the corrupted Heavy gunner daily. And I exhausted over 60 keys trying

Have you tried going on appropriate tilesets more consistently? If you're on a daily quest and are on the relevant node, you will be guaranteed to have a Synthesis target assigned to the mission. For Corrupted Heavy Gunners, any Void node should do it. Even when I was not on daily quests or spending much time in-game, I had no issue filling out the cap on a daily basis just by completing Synthesis for random squadmates with a sigil equipped. I'm currently MR16, too, which represents about three Synthesis targets' worth of standing, so 11K standing should be a matter of two.

On 8/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, H2K3 said:

Lore-wise, and even in some aspects of gameplay, moving Helios to Simaris exclusive makes little sense. Simaris doesn't own the codex. He owns the Simulacrum. He favors them because they are easily reconnaissance sentinels. Hell, he seems to be taking an interest in Carrier too. Why not move that one there?

How is the Codex relevant to any of this? That it's a Tenno item has no bearing on the Helios's connections to Simaris, and it makes perfect sense even in the current context for a drone to relay information to you as it's doing the same for him. Saying that one Carrier mod implies a connection between the sentinel and Simaris is, to put it very generously, stretching it. The Helios is much more consistently tied to him, both in terms of theme and in-game lore.

On 8/5/2016 at 1:34 AM, Zookes said:

That is not a feature for the Synthesis Scanner to have, as it is a Synthesis Scanner.

The Synthesis Scanner blips when there is something nearby that can be scanned for synthesis or Simaris faction points.
The Codex Scanner blips when there is something nearby that can be scanned for the Codex.
 

This functionality is not redundant. They are both different scanners with different purposes.

Putting aside the fact that I proposed in the OP to pre-fill the Codex, which would effectively render the Codex Scanner redundant, I don't think a difference in blips is really a reason to have two separate items. If nothing else, it would be extremely simple to have the Synthesis scanner blip just for Synthesis and Codex targets, since Simaris standing can be gained from any unscanned target.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Teridax68

[von4steiner]

I agree with everything.

Although i'm a bit unsure about the "all enemies are already scanned" thing. I personally think it's really rewarding to finally finish scanning an enemy and then be able to use them in the simulacrum. (Except for the grineer manics. That was like going through hell)

[Redthirst]

It seems like people who are against having codex display info are people who spent a bunch of time on codex scanning and they are butthurt about the possibility of people getting it for free.

Let me tell you this: Codex is essentially useless the way it is now. You have a choice: go around and scan enemies so you know the very basic info about them, or go to the wiki and find the same info. The main reason why databases inside the game are good is because they are more accessible. If you put a grindwall in front of such a database, it becomes useless, because there is a better third-party option available. Warframe already has huge problems with new player experience, and current Codex makes it a lot worse.

Also, no idea why people say that it would make scanning useless. Scanning will remain a game mechanic, because Simaris is still a thing.

[-CCC-Secret]

8 hours ago, Redthirst said:

It seems like people who are against having codex display info are people who spent a bunch of time on codex scanning and they are butthurt about the possibility of people getting it for free.

Let me tell you this: Codex is essentially useless the way it is now. You have a choice: go around and scan enemies so you know the very basic info about them, or go to the wiki and find the same info. The main reason why databases inside the game are good is because they are more accessible. If you put a grindwall in front of such a database, it becomes useless, because there is a better third-party option available. Warframe already has huge problems with new player experience, and current Codex makes it a lot worse.

Also, no idea why people say that it would make scanning useless. Scanning will remain a game mechanic, because Simaris is still a thing.

I haven't finished Codex entries myself, but making EVERYTHING in there would basically render CODEX scanners useless. Well I don't really like the Codex scanner since Simaris has his own.

I guess to fix the Codex you need a better tutorial. When I was new I didn't know anything about scanning, someone else had to tell me what it was, what it was for etc. So having that fix is a start. Right now you can't see what enemies are what with the system. I suggest making it so that enemies will open up a Codex entry once you meet said enemy. The Codex entry will show up basic information such as enemy name, faction and where you can find said enemies. Like now, scanning them will give more information.

At least that's what I want the Codex to be. It still retains the Pokemon feel to it (GOTTA SCAN THEM ALL) while being a bit more useful. Just my opinion.

[Redthirst]

3 hours ago, secret9005 said:

I haven't finished Codex entries myself, but making EVERYTHING in there would basically render CODEX scanners useless. Well I don't really like the Codex scanner since Simaris has his own.

And there's no real reason why Codex scanning should be a thing when we have Simaris scanning.

If people really like the scanning mini-game, then they can give some rewards for scanning(like artwork of scanned enemies to use in displays or some cosmetic when you scanned every enemy) while information in the Codex is provided for everyone.