Umbra Warframes (Discussion Thread)

[BornWithTeeth]

Hmmmm. Vastarov, I'm pretty sure that I don't actually agree with you, but I'm happy to argue about it.

 

First off, I dunno if starting your theory with "I'm going to disregard explicit word of creators and assume they're covering for what's really going to happen" adds legitimacy to a theory, but ok.

 

 

 

Aside from that, what few insights we've had into the Stalker's past and psychological issues indicate that the Stalker found out about the Reservoir, and far from it being a moment of freedom and triumph, it was a terrible revelation which drove him insane. Above all else, the Second Dream changed what we know of the Stalker's motivations. Before the Second Dream, it was revenge and punishment. After the Second Dream, we know that the Stalker is full of hatred and self loathing. The existing evidence points more to the idea that the Stalker has an Operator who couldn't handle the revelation of the Reservoir and went mad, fleeing into her 'frame and denying the truth, projecting that hatred as hard as she could onto her fellow Tenno.

 

 

 

To the topic of the 'Umbra System' being a hypothetical way of allowing sapient Warframes to start channelling Void energy by themselves.....I would not think so. The Tenno are the ones who came back from hyperspace with massive Void superpowers. The Warframes came later, being manufactured entirely by the Orokin. From what we've seen and heard, the Void is the last frontier which no-one, not even the Orokin, ever fully mastered. The Orokin themselves didn't even fully understand the Tenno, hated and feared them. For them to somehow be able to replicate that extreme power in what is functionally a machine would be a gigantic leap from their established (already extremely impressive) technological ability.

 

Recall, the Orokin themselves admitted that they used the Void, but never fully understood it, could never perfectly control it.

"In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed."

 

 

Now, that doesn't say that your theory is not true. I'm not inclined to think it particularly plausible, but hey, it could be what's going on, in which case I'll happily eat my words and concede that you were right....but I'll also not bother with Umbra Warframes if that is the case. I like my Operator.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

 

 

i actually like my operator as well :< 

 

and lets not forget the rift that is between our reality and the void, i.e. limbo theorem which well ended badly for the prototype .....

 

this is why I tend to think the umbras are linked to the void more so then  our own frames...

Edited February 9, 2016 by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako

[EmptyDevil]

All this talk about Umbra and the Stalker made me change a lot of ideas I had in mind...

OK! this is just a theory of mine, but I think "Operation Shadow Debt" and this so called new "Umbra System" are actually pretty tightly intertwined, despite what DE told us (well of course they wouldn't want to spoil the next massive update in story and lore...).

SUPER BIG SPOILERS AHEAD (uff...)

First, my basic theory (lore-wise) about the true nature of the Stalker.

One specific quote from the Acolytes hit me like a truck: "I see you are still their servants."

THIS apparently irrelevant sentence by one of the Acolytes (can't remember which one, I hope you'll forgive me) actually gives away A LOT about the true nature of the Acolytes.

I already posted a couple of times my theories on the Stalker, but I'll make a quick recap, just in case.

The Stalker is not a Tenno, but a freed warframe who managed to cut his ties to the Transference and is now going berserk like a revenant puppet with no strings anymore to bind him.

We already saw that frames can act indipendently in the Second Dream, even if just for a while, if their will is strong enough. Well, the Stalker's will is of revenge against the Tenno for the Day of Betrayal (let's call it that), event during which the Tenno killed the Golden Emperors (the Orokin high officials, politicians, kings, rulers... whatever) most probably after realizing they were indoctrinated into being good obedient soldiers after their families were brutally sacrificed in the Zariman 10-0 experiment ("accident"... yeah, sure). Fair enough.

Yet the Stalker (the frame) could only see the Orokin as his creators: no Orokin, no warframes. So the feelings about their murder would have been completely different for Tenno and frame - thus a fracture was created between the two, a fracture that has been kept under the surface since the Tenno was still in control.

BUT! we can assume that the Stalker and his Tenno were also included in Natah's plan to save her newfound children, so our hunter has been asleep somewhere in a cryogenic unit too.

Once awake though - theory hype: ON - the will for revenge of the Stalker was so strong that he could create disturbances in the Transference flow - allowing him to feel the true nature of his existence - and finally break free from the ties that were binding him, starting then to roam the galaxy in his killing frenzy.

Now, a tie-in of my theory with Acolytes and the upcoming Umbra.

NOW BACK TO THE FACTS!

It was very interesting for me to hear that kind of thing from one of the Acolytes ("I see you are still their servants."), since it would make my theory about the Stalker's nature THAT MUCH more believable.

We can also assume that the Acolytes are the same as the Stalker: warframes with their own free will who managed to cut their ties with their Tenno.

How does all this relate with Umbra?

But it's so simple!

Why would DE mention the word "System" when referring to Umbra Excalibur? Did they really need to use that word? They could have just called it a new "type" of frames, a new "batch", a new "version", even!

But no, they said "System".

Here's the evolution of my Stalker/Acolyte thoery: Umbra Warframes are just Warframes.

There's no Tenno behind the visor, there's no big mind-operated controller bound to their nervous system.

They are free.

They  are  free .

You like your Focus System, right? Well: guess what?

Umbra Warframes will use another source for their power, another system.

What will they be powered with? PURE VOID ENERGY, OF COURSE!

Remember the Zenurik school? The "Umbra Lance" we were talking about? That misterious damage type never seen before?

BOOM! That's the base of the Umbra Warframes!

How will it be implemented in the game? Alongside the solid Operator-System so well built inside the Warframe universe?

No idea. Of course. But i'm HYPED AS F*!! just thinking about it!

Here's my two cents on the matter. There's a lot of senseless rambling here and there, but I hope you guys will like my theories.

And of course dispute them, 'cause that's what makes forums interesting.

 

This is interesting but i don't buy any theory that says the Warframe killed it's Tenno or doesn't have one.

 

I believe Stalker and his Acolytes are Tenno or have them. The idea of the Acolytes having Tenno came from the 6 Tenno pods that were left behind at the reservoir in The Second Dream. I believe those Tenno were taken from their pods to be put to use by Stalker and/or Hunhow to fight fire with fire.

 

I believe it's possible that the Tenno of Stalker and the Acolytes may have a faulty/removed/damaged Margulis Implant(Keeps the Warframe voices out). The device keeps Transference as a 1-way connection to prevent the Warframe from becoming the will instead of the Tenno. It possible that they are Tenno possessed by their Warframes, they are in a true mutual relationship with the frames, or it's something of a hostage situation. I feel like this line by Misery may indicate something like this:

 

"Those who oppose will be consumed. Emotion drives us. Blood divides us."

 

Meaning the Tenno conscious will be consumed/repressed entirely if they do not obey the Warframe, share their motives, or act outside of it's interests.

 

All that lead to this idea i had about Umbra variants:

 

Perhaps DE could make Umbra be Warframes where the "voices" are harder to contain, so they seep through and can influence the Tenno/Operator to an extent during Transference. For example, I imagine the Warframe voice whispering and influencing the Tenno to pour more power into it. Transference would have the potential to be a 2 way street without the device Margulis made to stop it.

 

 

Think of it as the will some dark knight armor possesses in media. There wearer is strengthen or pushed to past their limits at a cost. 

 

Prime = Paladin/Knight of Light

 

Umbra = Dark Knight/Knight of Shadow

 

 

 

I feel like this would be a good way to go about Umbras. They could represent the different methods, views, and beliefs in the Tenno + Warframe relationship.

[BornWithTeeth]

Oooh. The idea that the technical difference which 'Umbra' represents is that an Umbra 'frame has a limited or removed Margulis implant, and that an Operator may be in control but will not be able to silence the voices.....I like that. A lot.

 

 

 

That's way more interesting. Nice one, EmptyDevil.

[EmptyDevil]

Oooh. The idea that the technical difference which 'Umbra' represents is that an Umbra 'frame has a limited or removed Margulis implant, and that an Operator may be in control but will not be able to silence the voices.....I like that. A lot.

 

 

 

That's way more interesting. Nice one, EmptyDevil.

 

Thanks. I'm not entirely sure on what type of unique mechanic they could have since Primes have the Orokin orb passive. 

[BornWithTeeth]

Thanks. I'm not entirely sure on what type of unique mechanic they could have since Primes have the Orokin orb passive. 

 

 

 

 

[EmptyDevil]

 

 

 

Something like this is what i had in mind but i'm also referring to a unique benefit. That way they won't seem like primes that whisper to us. I have a very vague mechanic idea that i might post sometime.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Something like this is what i had in mind but i'm also referring to a unique benefit. That way they won't seem like primes that whisper to us. I have a very vague mechanic idea that i might post sometime.

looking forward to it xD

[EmptyDevil]

looking forward to it xD

 

Here is one idea out of a few:

 

You store up to 250 energy by using powers in a method similar to the Energy Channel mod. If you have 250 energy stored upon death, all stored energy is consumed to automatically revive the frame with increased damage, speed, and decreased power efficiency by x amount for x seconds(still consumes a revive).

 

Whispering is extremely faint/non-existent without stored energy, intensifies as you reach max capacity, and at max intensity during berserk state. Operator's transmissions should have a reverse whisper overlay, shadowy background(like Acolytes/Stalker), and eye glow should consume the entire eye during the berserk state, like the following:

 

 

In all honesty, it's difficult to think of a variant passive because Prime's passive is restricted to the Void tileset. DE should consider giving Primes a new passive that isn't location restricted.

[Eldnacpeek]

Devil made the lore, it's done-release Umbra now.

[Vastarov]

Uhhh me likes the theorieees! XD

Yeah... the bit about Umbra being fueled by pure Void energy was somewhat thrown randomly in there... I was pretty tired, I went along with my self-generated hype, sorry! Unprofessional at least XD

But the conjecture combining the pods remaining on the Moon and the Acolytes is a little too extreme in my opinion.
Of course, it's factual and logic - we saw those pods still closed in the cinematics and the number would be the same - but from a lore standpoint the whole thing is just too restrictive...
We know that the Tenno in those pods were not the entirety of the Tenno in the galaxy, so even if we experienced the fight with the Stalker in first person we can argue that ours was only ONE of the fights. Of course we were simbolically the protagonists of the squabble because - well - it's a game, everyone HAS to be the hero. Otherwise, no more money for that shizzle.
But saying that THOSE pods in THAT pod-cluster in THAT section of the Moon terraformed area were then taken and conditioned by the Stalker/Hunhow and turned into THOSE Acolytes - nah, too much.

I like the idea of the frame factually controlling the Tenno - it's kind of a twist on my theory: instead of severing the connection the freed puppets use it to their advantage, very twisted-evil-guy-style. But again, as I wrote: they are free. Per se, it's the biggest boom-stick the story of Umbra frames could hold.
The idea of the two-way connection and Margulis' dike-like device being vaulted over is genius! Props to you, @EmptyDevil !
BUT! I read also something very interesting, that may have very well happened to the Stalker too.

WHAT IF the frame did indeed use to his benefit the two-way connection to his Tenno, surpassed the blocks of Margulis' device and took control of the Operator - AND THEN robbed the child of the Zariman of his powers and took them for himself??? And after that either killed him, severed the connection leaving him to rot in the pod or put him into a quiescent state still connected but incapable of regaining consciousness and thus serving as food or infinite power source for the leeching frame???

[JetFule]

Ppl need to get over it being "emo" and think of it as the tenno finally saying enough. It not about victory anymore, it's time to kill till there's nobody left to stop the tenno. And primes are so disgustingly underwhelming, Easy and practically pointless. it's time for something better, a new meta >:D

I know i am very late but, tenno were never really about victory as much as they were about keeping the balance in the system.

[BornWithTeeth]

I know i am very late but, tenno were never really about victory as much as they were about keeping the balance in the system.

 

 

Well, I was actually kind of amused. See, the post you're responding to came four posts after another one, and it looked like this:

 

In my opinion umbras don´t belong a single bit in the general build. Let them china guys have them but let me alone with those cheap teenager trie hard "badassy" flavour of the month and forced exclusive content for a complete different audience.

 

 

Ppl need to get over it being "emo" and think of it as the tenno finally saying enough. It not about victory anymore, it's time to kill till there's nobody left to stop the tenno. And primes are so disgustingly underwhelming, Easy and practically pointless. it's time for something better, a new meta >:D

 

Bit funny, really.

[EmptyDevil]

Uhhh me likes the theorieees! XD

Yeah... the bit about Umbra being fueled by pure Void energy was somewhat thrown randomly in there... I was pretty tired, I went along with my self-generated hype, sorry! Unprofessional at least XD

But the conjecture combining the pods remaining on the Moon and the Acolytes is a little too extreme in my opinion.

Of course, it's factual and logic - we saw those pods still closed in the cinematics and the number would be the same - but from a lore standpoint the whole thing is just too restrictive...

We know that the Tenno in those pods were not the entirety of the Tenno in the galaxy, so even if we experienced the fight with the Stalker in first person we can argue that ours was only ONE of the fights. Of course we were simbolically the protagonists of the squabble because - well - it's a game, everyone HAS to be the hero. Otherwise, no more money for that shizzle.

But saying that THOSE pods in THAT pod-cluster in THAT section of the Moon terraformed area were then taken and conditioned by the Stalker/Hunhow and turned into THOSE Acolytes - nah, too much.

I like the idea of the frame factually controlling the Tenno - it's kind of a twist on my theory: instead of severing the connection the freed puppets use it to their advantage, very twisted-evil-guy-style. But again, as I wrote: they are free. Per se, it's the biggest boom-stick the story of Umbra frames could hold.

The idea of the two-way connection and Margulis' dike-like device being vaulted over is genius! Props to you, @EmptyDevil !

BUT! I read also something very interesting, that may have very well happened to the Stalker too.

WHAT IF the frame did indeed use to his benefit the two-way connection to his Tenno, surpassed the blocks of Margulis' device and took control of the Operator - AND THEN robbed the child of the Zariman of his powers and took them for himself??? And after that either killed him, severed the connection leaving him to rot in the pod or put him into a quiescent state still connected but incapable of regaining consciousness and thus serving as food or infinite power source for the leeching frame???

 

I personally do not think it is "too much" as you're saying. It is too much IMO, to invalidate the Operator by saying the Warframe can kill them + steal their powers while remaining mobile. There is nothing in The Second Dream that even hints at Stalker not having an Operator. The theory sounds like it's just built on the ideas of people who hate the outcome of The Second Dream instead of accepting it.

 

The remaining 6 pods on the moon having the possibility of being the Acolytes is extreme in what way? No one said anything about them representing all Tenno in their entirety but it is certain that there were Tenno in them. It would not make any sense from a lore standpoint if Stalker and the Sentients repeated the same actions for every single Tenno. They would not just leave the pods of their enemies completely intact. With the urgency and events that took place, there wasn't any time or possibility for each Tenno in those pods to do what we did. I believe Hunhow/Stalker took the opportunity to capture those remaining for later use.

 

All of that aside, yes, i believe the Tenno/Warframe connection has the potential to be 2-way and that both sides could be the will or vice versa.

[BornWithTeeth]

I personally do not think it is "too much" as you're saying. It is too much IMO, to invalidate the Operator by saying the Warframe can kill them + steal their powers while remaining mobile. There is nothing in The Second Dream that even hints at Stalker not having an Operator. The theory sounds like it's just built on the ideas of people who hate the outcome of The Second Dream instead of accepting it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That does seem to be where a lot of that sort of theory is coming from.

 

 

I think the real kicker there, the crucial tell, is in the words which often get used to describe it. It's never "What if my Tenno wants to permanently transfer their consciousness into the Warframe? That would be cool." Instead, it's always "I want to kill the Operator and be the Warframe [because I, me, the player, hate the Operator]."

[Vastarov]

[...]There is nothing in The Second Dream that even hints at Stalker not having an Operator. The theory sounds like it's just built on the ideas of people who hate the outcome of The Second Dream instead of accepting it.[...]

I agree, but something "hints" (screams) that warframes might be able to move, act and think by themselves, without Operator.

And I have to say: I loved every bit of the Second Dream. It blew me away, it was masterfully orchestrated, DE let nothing (NOTHING) slip out before the update was live and I still can't believe they were able to do that. I loved the outcome of the Second Dream and my theory is not denying it in any way, nor is it dismissing it.

And the pod-Acolyte theory is viable - just please, not THOSE pods! Cheesy...

That does seem to be where a lot of that sort of theory is coming from.

Again, not mine XD

"I want to kill the Operator and be the Warframe [because I, me, the player, hate the Operator]."

"I, me, the player, AM the Operator"

[EmptyDevil]

That does seem to be where a lot of that sort of theory is coming from.

 

 

I think the real kicker there, the crucial tell, is in the words which often get used to describe it. It's never "What if my Tenno wants to permanently transfer their consciousness into the Warframe? That would be cool." Instead, it's always "I want to kill the Operator and be the Warframe [because I, me, the player, hate the Operator]."

 

I agree with what you said. It's almost always results in the Operator being murdered.

 

I agree, but something "hints" (screams) that warframes might be able to move, act and think by themselves, without Operator.

And the pod-Acolyte theory is viable - just please, not THOSE pods! Cheesy...

 

I believe it's possible to a limited extent.

 

Cheesy in what way? Why can't it be those pods? It fills in something that could potentially lead to a plot hole later on. 

[BornWithTeeth]

I kind of assume that in the immediate aftermath of the Second Dream quest, there was an absolutely massive offscreen rescue operation, where many thousands of Tenno Orbiters dropped out of punch in Lunar orbit, summoned by the Lotus to retrieve the sleeping Operators.

 

 

I basically run with the idea that canonically, the Second Dream quest happened to just one Tenno, the one who was closest and whom the Lotus could mobilise fastest. We all played the quest, and it could be any one of us.

 

 

EDIT: Spelling.

Edited February 9, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[EmptyDevil]

I kind of assume that in the immediate aftermath of the Second Dream quest, there was an absolutely massive offscreen rescue operation, where many thousands of Tenno Orbiters dropped out of punch in Lunar orbit, summoned by the Lotus to retrieve the sleeping Operators.

 

 

I basically run with the idea that canonically, the Second Dream quest happened to just one Tenno, the one who was closest and whom the Lotus could mobilise fastest. We all played the quest, and it could be any one of us.

 

 

EDIT: Spelling.

 

The rescue could be a possibility as well. Those rescuers would have had to fight off the Sentients in that area, which would also explain the damage when you go back.

 

I agree that canonically it only happens to one Tenno.

[Vastarov]

Of course, it only happens to the "hero", as I said. Which is one single individual for the lore, but for gaming standards everyone.

Really meta.

[S0ulre4per]

Hi.

 

 

So, Umbras.

They won't be coming so Soon™.

Probably after Saryn Prime, in a combo with a new prime warframe.

[This is NOT confirmed by DE, it's is MY idea of when could they appear]

 

And they will be introduced ''story-wise''

How do you see them being introduced to the game?

 

 

In MY opinion i see 2 ways of how Umbras could be introduced in game.

 

Option 1 - We play a story mission, distress signals, tadadadadadadaa something, end up seeing a Prime warframe fighting and Umbra warframe. But Why? what could be a reason for them to fight?

We already have Stalker chasing us because we godstomped the orokin, But why Umbras should fight us?

(yes i am aware that Stalker is wearing an umbra warframe)

It would be really ''jedi vs sith'' type of scenario, and it is getting kinda old these days.

*good guy vs good guy gone bad, and the bad one is now the stronger one, cliché*

 

 

Option 2 - Ultimate Orokin Weapon, The Umbras

Hidden in the Void, As a last resort if Sentients should ever return. To put an end to the terror once and for all.

We find something in orokin archives that says Umbras..........Lotus explains us what that is,

explains the situation that sentients are back, and stronger than ever

and now we are off to get, hopefully the most powerfull, anti-sentient weapon ever. THE UMBRA WARFRAME!

 

 

In MY opinion, if Umbras are going to be important to the story, then we should be able to farm THE FIRST UMBRA in the mission.

[A warframe that you don't need to grind for millions of hours? Hah. You crazy bruh?]

 

[A Mirage, hidden mesage type of mission would do the trick], The rest of the umbras can be grinded/ bought like the Primes.

 

Honestly i like the Option 2 better.

 

 

Also, Can we expect improved stats? for example - Regular Excal has about 740 hp and shields with maxed mods iirc.

Are Umbras going to have idk, atleast 1000 Hp and shields?

boosted stats would be nice, like idk, 150 power duration without mods. or am i just pushing my luck here?

 

Because if the stats are the same, then it really will be a mastery reskin with more of that Swaaag.

Like getting an excal who just looks different by default.

 

P.S. just to be clear. i'm NOT hinting Anything at ''give us excal prime back''

Edited February 10, 2016 by S0ulre4per

[Bizzaro21]

if u ask me, Umbras are the sentient counter for prime warframes, after all, Excalibur`s entry says

 They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses

[BornWithTeeth]

There's an existing Umbra thread all about this sort of stuff:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/573303-umbra-warframe-discussion-news/

 

 

 

 

 

Also, hafta point out that making Umbra Warframes hugely overpowered would be a bad move for the game's development in the long run.

Edited February 10, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[PsychedelicSnake]

Umbra frames are Lotus' OCs. Do not steal.

Edited February 10, 2016 by PsychedelicSnake

[S0ulre4per]

if u ask me, Umbras are the sentient counter for prime warframes, after all, Excalibur`s entry says

idk, Warframes, as i understand, were created AFTER they were facing the reverse engineering from sentients.

Warframes use void energy, what could sentients do? Its poison to them

Reverse engineer the warframes using sentient energy?

Highly unlikely, because

1. we would kill them faster before they could finish building them.

2. we couldnt allow that in the first place, otherwise the war would go on forever.

3. i mean yea, its a cool story element, but we have seen stuff like that millions of times.

Besides, why bring even more enemies? better flesh out the ones that we have already

Edited February 10, 2016 by S0ulre4per