Make weapons switch faster please

[Shanicus]

...this is a problem people have? Weird, I've never really... noticed it being too slow, unless I bugger up and mash the button so I end up swapping weapons 10 times in a row. Just flip or roll while swapping so I don't get eaten by high level enemies and it's just fine for me, even in high-end missions and Sorties. 

 

I dunno, make everything faster when Damage 3.0 rolls around or release some more mods that increase reload speed so people can run that and Energy Siphon/Steel Charge, that'll do it. Yeah, yeah, 'band-aid mods' whatever, so long as they're not 30% jobbies like Magazine Warp they'll do. 

[Prany]

 

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

I see no reason to give up power, I like to wipe entire rooms with cheese abilities, it's what attracted me to Warframe to begin with and there are many others like me

it's usually envy why people want to nerf this, they can't stand other players doing this so they want to take other peoples joy out of the game just to suit them

Ad hominem at its finest.

I heard you hate nullifiers, am I right? How about Comba jumping on you and dispelling your buffs every thirty seconds? How about leech eximus one room further draining you dry? How about ancients reducing all your damage to naught while they themselves are stuck god knows where? And how about all those power resistant mobs? Actions speak louder than words and DE has spoken by introducing these anti cheese enemies. They don't want you to buldozer through their content, created for months, in matter of hours and them complain on the forums that there is nothing new for you to do. And maybe, just maybe they have creative ambitions regarding their own work. Maybe they want their new introduction to enemy ranks to actually matter.  But since we can wipe entire rooms, DE has only one option - create mobs that stop, resist and/or ignore our powers.

And this is where everyone suffers. Not you, not me, not them, not us. EVERYONE. That room cleaning, power mongering Ash? Suffers. Gunplay focused, buff reliant Chroma? Suffers. Tactical stealthy Ivara? Suffers. Skilless stealthy Loki? Suffers. Energy intensive Saryn? Suffers. Skill intensive Limbo? Suffers. Atlas, who isn't even capable to wipe rooms? Suffers. That newby Excalibur? Suffers. This is why we ask for nerfs. We don't want to suffer for reasons we are not responsable for. When DE nerf overpowered frame, users of said frame suffer. When DE introduces new enemy or mechanic designed to counter overpowered frame, everyone suffers.

PS: Full support for faster weapon swap.

[JalakBali]

Just remove the animation of holstering the previous weapon and immediately jump to pulling out the new weapon. Like how they do quick melee. No offense to Geoff who did a terrific job with the animations. But yeah, there's really no downside to making weapon switching faster.

[Kurnuttaja]

1 hour ago, JalakBali said:

Just remove the animation of holstering the previous weapon and immediately jump to pulling out the new weapon. Like how they do quick melee. No offense to Geoff who did a terrific job with the animations. But yeah, there's really no downside to making weapon switching faster.

Yeah this is what many games do for the sake of gameplay over realism, Im surprised Warframe is going for 100% realism with weapon switching animations

[DeadScream]

It's like the knock down mechanic, many things in this action game should be action or skill based, part of core mechanics instead of dozens of mods no one uses because we need place for more interesting things... 

so take my +1 !

[Educated_Beast]

As it is now, it is not realistic.  I can draw my side arm while dropping primary to side on a sling and fire accurately faster than my Tenno.  

 

And I'm not a space ninja.  

 

The animation is way to slow.  Side arms needs about a 200% increase.  We can keep the primary at same speed.  

 

But it's always faster for me to just reload than to use sidearm.  These guys arguing against faster draw times just need to play more, they are still new.  

 

 

[BlackVortex]

8 hours ago, Prany said:

 

Ad hominem at its finest.

I heard you hate nullifiers, am I right? How about Comba jumping on you and dispelling your buffs every thirty seconds? How about leech eximus one room further draining you dry? How about ancients reducing all your damage to naught while they themselves are stuck god knows where? And how about all those power resistant mobs? Actions speak louder than words and DE has spoken by introducing these anti cheese enemies. They don't want you to buldozer through their content, created for months, in matter of hours and them complain on the forums that there is nothing new for you to do. And maybe, just maybe they have creative ambitions regarding their own work. Maybe they want their new introduction to enemy ranks to actually matter.  But since we can wipe entire rooms, DE has only one option - create mobs that stop, resist and/or ignore our powers.

And this is where everyone suffers. Not you, not me, not them, not us. EVERYONE. That room cleaning, power mongering Ash? Suffers. Gunplay focused, buff reliant Chroma? Suffers. Tactical stealthy Ivara? Suffers. Skilless stealthy Loki? Suffers. Energy intensive Saryn? Suffers. Skill intensive Limbo? Suffers. Atlas, who isn't even capable to wipe rooms? Suffers. That newby Excalibur? Suffers. This is why we ask for nerfs. We don't want to suffer for reasons we are not responsable for. When DE nerf overpowered frame, users of said frame suffer. When DE introduces new enemy or mechanic designed to counter overpowered frame, everyone suffers.

PS: Full support for faster weapon swap.

1. I have no issues with Comba, or Eximus Energy Leeches, I don't like Distruptors(power resistant mob) but at least you are able to counter them, with yes, a weapon, so I am OK with them

2. I have never once complained about there being nothing new, or that I went through the content too fast, so this arguement doesn't apply to me either

3. Creating enemies that resist/ignore my powers will not make me go through content much slower, I will just have to cheese it with a different build is all

4. "this is why we ask for nerfs" speak for yourself, it's a minority who wants this and most people just cry because others wipe entire rooms ahead of them while they are in pubs, either because they lack the builds/mods to do this, or just because they want to enjoy a gunplay mission... you know there is something called a solo mode

5. if you feel that you go through content too fast because you apply cheese tactics... then don't. it's not that hard, noone is forcing you to cheese stuff, you do it yourself, you can also choose to go into a mission with no/useless mods that do not fortify your abilities into nuclear warheads wiping the entire map in less than a second

6. I have never suffered of being overpowered, I enjoyed this aspect of the game, and just went into higher and higher content untill the warhead cheese tactic stopped working because mobs had too much health. The only real problem with the cheesing tactic, is the cc aspect, which is applicable to any level, but again, I have never complained about this either

7. the only reason everyone suffers, if because little crybabies ask for nerfs and ruin the game for the other 80% of the community that actually enjoys the game as it is.

[Prany]

2 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

1. I have no issues with Comba, or Eximus Energy Leeches, I don't like Distruptors(power resistant mob) but at least you are able to counter them, with yes, a weapon, so I am OK with them

2. I have never once complained about there being nothing new, or that I went through the content too fast, so this arguement doesn't apply to me either

3. Creating enemies that resist/ignore my powers will not make me go through content much slower, I will just have to cheese it with a different build is all

4. "this is why we ask for nerfs" speak for yourself, it's a minority who wants this and most people just cry because others wipe entire rooms ahead of them while they are in pubs, either because they lack the builds/mods to do this, or just because they want to enjoy a gunplay mission... you know there is something called a solo mode

5. if you feel that you go through content too fast because you apply cheese tactics... then don't. it's not that hard, noone is forcing you to cheese stuff, you do it yourself, you can also choose to go into a mission with no/useless mods that do not fortify your abilities into nuclear warheads wiping the entire map in less than a second

6. I have never suffered of being overpowered, I enjoyed this aspect of the game, and just went into higher and higher content untill the warhead cheese tactic stopped working because mobs had too much health. The only real problem with the cheesing tactic, is the cc aspect, which is applicable to any level, but again, I have never complained about this either

7. the only reason everyone suffers, if because little crybabies ask for nerfs and ruin the game for the other 80% of the community that actually enjoys the game as it is.

Amazing. It's like your arguments are prepped ahead of any upcoming argument and applied without speck of analytical thought - like tape recording. If you had, you'd realize most of your counter arguments are already countered by arguments you tried to counter.

But this is no thread to discuss these matters. Thus I take my leave without explaining why you are wrong at every single point you made, letting you assume I do so due to my lack of arguments and giving you chance to say final, undoubtedly triumphant word which should wrap your mind in safety if blissful ignorance. You're welcome! ;)

[BlackVortex]

2 hours ago, Prany said:

Amazing. It's like your arguments are prepped ahead of any upcoming argument and applied without speck of analytical thought - like tape recording. If you had, you'd realize most of your counter arguments are already countered by arguments you tried to counter.

But this is no thread to discuss these matters. Thus I take my leave without explaining why you are wrong at every single point you made, letting you assume I do so due to my lack of arguments and giving you chance to say final, undoubtedly triumphant word which should wrap your mind in safety if blissful ignorance. You're welcome! ;)

obvious troll is obvious

[Adder9]

Must everything go a million miles an hour? Is simply taking cover to switch or doing so while sprinting, dodging, or bullet jumping something you're too good for? If you want to have a faster draw rate, then we could add a mod for that, but there's no need to bake it in for all of us. I think the speed is fine as it is, and I play with a bow and a rapid fire secondary most of the time, juggling between the two. It just requires a bit of skill, some planning, and some coordination. Not everything needs to be instantaneous. 

That said, there are several PvP mods that allow faster holster rates, and I think the addition of a special conclave mod slot that remains available in PvE. If that would be added, people could use it to customize and tweak a number of these issues that they complain about, but not everyone wants. More choice is good.

This game is about modding. It's a core principle of the game, and fixing things into our stats would simply take a lot of player choice and the ability to think and customize out of the game. 

[TheScytale]

43 minutes ago, Adder9 said:

That said, there are several PvP mods that allow faster holster rates, and I think the addition of a special conclave mod slot that remains available in PvE. If that would be added, people could use it to customize and tweak a number of these issues that they complain about, but not everyone wants. More choice is good.

If you're referring to the ones dropping from sentients, they can already be equipped in PvE loadouts, and they go up to 200%. (the mods that have a diamond-like icon next to their names are usable in both PvE and PvP). But people still complain for the sake of complaining, and throw stones at people for saying that the change isn't necessary.

[MJ12]

54 minutes ago, Adder9 said:

Must everything go a million miles an hour? Is simply taking cover to switch or doing so while sprinting, dodging, or bullet jumping something you're too good for? If you want to have a faster draw rate, then we could add a mod for that, but there's no need to bake it in for all of us. I think the speed is fine as it is, and I play with a bow and a rapid fire secondary most of the time, juggling between the two. It just requires a bit of skill, some planning, and some coordination. Not everything needs to be instantaneous. 

That said, there are several PvP mods that allow faster holster rates, and I think the addition of a special conclave mod slot that remains available in PvE. If that would be added, people could use it to customize and tweak a number of these issues that they complain about, but not everyone wants. More choice is good.

This game is about modding. It's a core principle of the game, and fixing things into our stats would simply take a lot of player choice and the ability to think and customize out of the game. 

There is a concept in game design called "false choice" or "trap choices" which describes a lot of Warframe in general. Basically, you have 'choices' which are not actually good or viable. Given damage falls off quickly in Warframe, there are plenty of weapons which are viable at most ranges, and you have a very limited number of mod slots and mod energy, most choices are trap choices. More choice is not always good, especially when the choice is "do you want to be less effective, or do you want to have less fun but be more effective" because a very large number of players, rightfully, will choose #2 and therefore have less fun. You are demanding yet another trap choice be put in via the power of band-aid mods. Your logic leads to the idea that Sprint and Bullet Jumping and Double Jumping should be removed from Warframes and turned into mods. After all, 'more choice is good.' People should have the choice between being able to move around quickly and nimbly and being effective. This sounds like a good and fun game. Wait no, it isn't, because Warframe demonstrably got more fun when they made frames more agile via Parkour 2.0.

Also, yes everything should go 'a million miles an hour' when your game is about being fast-paced. But asking for CoD or ArmA-style weapons switch speeds isn't even 'a million miles an hour.' It's asking for Tenno to switch weapons slightly faster than a random shooter-guy in a game about slow-moving shooter-guys with guns.

Just now, TheScytale said:

If you're referring to the ones dropping from sentients, they can already be equipped in PvE loadouts, and they go up to 200%. (the mods that have a diamond-like icon next to their names are usable in both PvE and PvP). But people still complain for the sake of complaining, and throw stones at people for saying that the change isn't necessary.

No, people aren't complaining for the "sake of complaining," people are complaining because this is bad design. I shouldn't be stuck with slow-as-molasses weapon switch speeds until I can get enough mods and levels behind me to fight Sentients, at which point I can choose between either slow-as-molasses weapon switch speeds or sacrificing a pretty significant amount of damage and thus actual combat effectiveness to speed up my weapons switch speeds. Why are weapons switch speeds as fast as they are in Call of Duty? Or Doom? Or Vanquish? It's because if you want to encourage switching weapons, you want to make the process as painless as possible.

Your argument is that the default playstyle of Warframe is not one which should support switching weapons quickly and you should have to specifically mod yourself to do it, because it's equivalent to the high-end powerspam builds for Warframes somehow. Why do you suggest that?

[Adder9]

7 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

There is a concept in game design called "false choice" or "trap choices" which describes a lot of Warframe in general. Basically, you have 'choices' which are not actually good or viable. Given damage falls off quickly in Warframe, there are plenty of weapons which are viable at most ranges, and you have a very limited number of mod slots and mod energy, most choices are trap choices. More choice is not always good, especially when the choice is "do you want to be less effective, or do you want to have less fun but be more effective" because a very large number of players, rightfully, will choose #2 and therefore have less fun. You are demanding yet another trap choice be put in via the power of band-aid mods. Your logic leads to the idea that Sprint and Bullet Jumping and Double Jumping should be removed from Warframes and turned into mods. After all, 'more choice is good.' People should have the choice between being able to move around quickly and nimbly and being effective. This sounds like a good and fun game. Wait no, it isn't, because Warframe demonstrably got more fun when they made frames more agile via Parkour 2.0.

Also, yes everything should go 'a million miles an hour' when your game is about being fast-paced. But asking for CoD or ArmA-style weapons switch speeds isn't even 'a million miles an hour.' It's asking for Tenno to switch weapons slightly faster than a random shooter-guy in a game about slow-moving shooter-guys with guns.

No, people aren't complaining for the "sake of complaining," people are complaining because this is bad design. I shouldn't be stuck with slow-as-molasses weapon switch speeds until I can get enough mods and levels behind me to fight Sentients, at which point I can choose between either slow-as-molasses weapon switch speeds or sacrificing a pretty significant amount of damage and thus actual combat effectiveness to speed up my weapons switch speeds. Why are weapons switch speeds as fast as they are in Call of Duty? Or Doom? Or Vanquish? It's because if you want to encourage switching weapons, you want to make the process as painless as possible.

Your argument is that the default playstyle of Warframe is not one which should support switching weapons quickly and you should have to specifically mod yourself to do it, because it's equivalent to the high-end powerspam builds for Warframes somehow. Why do you suggest that?

Demonstrably would require data; I ask that you show said data, or else I posit that it is your opinion, with which I disagree. I would argue that warframe got less fun. I still play it for the lore, but any team play now basically demands that I fly or else I am just following people through a random map. The overuse of bullet jump is annoying, sad, and experience breaking. 

More to point; there are no trap choices in warframe aside from shields and damage. I play without blind rage on sorties, something that is quite uncommon for many end game players. I also do stealth missions without loki or ash, and play defense without a frost. You mod for your playstyle, and when everyone has the same speed mechanics, the game increasingly becomes less a game and more of a race to the finish, competing against your teammates to even get a kill. In order to even play, youre forced to move as fast as tou can make your little fingers and your frame go simply because it has been made into a global mechanic, removing all the choice we have about speed. People will counter that "you don't have to {insert mechanic here}" but, if you want to do anything at all in a non stationary mission, you do have to use the mechanic in order to match your teammates. At least, that is my experience of late.

People clamor for faster reloads, faster switching, faster casting, faster healing, faster everything because the game has evolved into such a speed rush that every other mechanic is subservient to speed. 

Locked in mechaincs create the true false choice. Yes, with mods there will always be some choices that yield better results than others, but that is because they are real choices. 

If we increase the holster rate, then this will put people using low capacity weapons, people electing not to carry a primary or a secondary for increased affinity, people who build off of powers, people who built for reload speed, and anyone else who, for whatever reason, is not carrying two ranged weapons, at a disadvantage because they will not be able to engage as many enemies in increasingly small amounts of time. Their choice has then been effectively removed, and the game mandates that, in order to play a pick up game and get anywhere near an equal share of the action, you must carry two weapons and switch between them as soon as your magazine is empty. It has created another false choice, and all other actions will seem slow. The cycle does not end.

Switching weapons is already faster than reloading, although not for all weapons, and not too much, but you have the freedom to build either up such that it has the advantage and use it when you play. You buff switching so that it is superior to reloading, and suddenly everyone has to switch rather than reload if they want to get their shots in. Then we get blessed with all the "we're ninjas, we should reload faster" threads and the cycle continues. 

[MJ12]

4 minutes ago, Adder9 said:

Demonstrably would require data; I ask that you show said data, or else I posit that it is your opinion, with which I disagree. I would argue that warframe got less fun. I still play it for the lore, but any team play now basically demands that I fly or else I am just following people through a random map. The overuse of bullet jump is annoying, sad, and experience breaking. 

More to point; there are no trap choices in warframe aside from shields and damage. I play without blind rage on sorties, something that is quite uncommon for many end game players. I also do stealth missions without loki or ash, and play defense without a frost. You mod for your playstyle, and when everyone has the same speed mechanics, the game increasingly becomes less a game and more of a race to the finish, competing against your teammates to even get a kill. In order to even play, youre forced to move as fast as tou can make your little fingers and your frame go simply because it has been made into a global mechanic, removing all the choice we have about speed. People will counter that "you don't have to {insert mechanic here}" but, if you want to do anything at all in a non stationary mission, you do have to use the mechanic in order to match your teammates. At least, that is my experience of late.

People clamor for faster reloads, faster switching, faster casting, faster healing, faster everything because the game has evolved into such a speed rush that every other mechanic is subservient to speed. 

Locked in mechaincs create the true false choice. Yes, with mods there will always be some choices that yield better results than others, but that is because they are real choices. 

If we increase the holster rate, then this will put people using low capacity weapons, people electing not to carry a primary or a secondary for increased affinity, people who build off of powers, people who built for reload speed, and anyone else who, for whatever reason, is not carrying two ranged weapons, at a disadvantage because they will not be able to engage as many enemies in increasingly small amounts of time. Their choice has then been effectively removed, and the game mandates that, in order to play a pick up game and get anywhere near an equal share of the action, you must carry two weapons and switch between them as soon as your magazine is empty. It has created another false choice, and all other actions will seem slow. The cycle does not end.

Switching weapons is already faster than reloading, although not for all weapons, and not too much, but you have the freedom to build either up such that it has the advantage and use it when you play. You buff switching so that it is superior to reloading, and suddenly everyone has to switch rather than reload if they want to get their shots in. Then we get blessed with all the "we're ninjas, we should reload faster" threads and the cycle continues. 

"The choice you had about speed" never existed. I've been playing Warframe since Update 4. Do you know why people rush missions? It has nothing to do with how fast people move, and everything to do with how the game encourages you to rush missions because rewards are back-loaded onto mission completion. We didn't have bullet jumping or parkour for several updates, and people still rushed. In fact, it was worse then because your choices were either to stack a pile of +Sprint Speed mods on your frame or get left behind forever. Do you want to fix rushing missions? Sure, I do too. I've suggested several ideas to do so before. But "oh no things are too fast" isn't the reason for rushing, and deciding to make people slow won't fix things. Way back, coptering/wavedashing was the old bullet-jumping and they nerfed that using your logic to give you "a choice about speed" and guess what happened? The rushers still rushed by taking Rush Lokis-and now the other people couldn't keep up. Your argument is basically a gigantic slippery slope fallacy based on false assumptions.

Locked in mechanics don't create a "true false choice." You're just parroting terms without knowing what they mean. Two choices where one of them is demonstrably more effective than the other in all situations is not a real choice because it's basically saying "you have the choice to suck." It'd be like DE introducing an instant death beam weapon with infinite ammo and a beam as wide as a room and saying "you have the choice to fire it into the air for no reason, don't like it just miss with it."

That said, you are right that it would somewhat reduce the dominance of the strategy of taking one weapon and never switching from it ever. I think that is entirely acceptable, because if that's supposed to be the default pro strat, why do we have 2 weapons slots? The DPS gains are going to be marginal over time because you'll have to reload your weapons eventually and by doing so you're making a real choice to forgo leveling an underleveled weapon via passive affinity leech or taking 1 fewer weapon to level the rest of your stuff faster.

[Adder9]

4 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

"The choice you had about speed" never existed. I've been playing Warframe since Update 4. Do you know why people rush missions? It has nothing to do with how fast people move, and everything to do with how the game encourages you to rush missions because rewards are back-loaded onto mission completion. We didn't have bullet jumping or parkour for several updates, and people still rushed. In fact, it was worse then because your choices were either to stack a pile of +Sprint Speed mods on your frame or get left behind forever. Do you want to fix rushing missions? Sure, I do too. I've suggested several ideas to do so before. But "oh no things are too fast" isn't the reason for rushing, and deciding to make people slow won't fix things. Way back, coptering/wavedashing was the old bullet-jumping and they nerfed that using your logic to give you "a choice about speed" and guess what happened? The rushers still rushed by taking Rush Lokis-and now the other people couldn't keep up. Your argument is basically a gigantic slippery slope fallacy based on false assumptions.

Locked in mechanics don't create a "true false choice." You're just parroting terms without knowing what they mean. Two choices where one of them is demonstrably more effective than the other in all situations is not a real choice because it's basically saying "you have the choice to suck." It'd be like DE introducing an instant death beam weapon with infinite ammo and a beam as wide as a room and saying "you have the choice to fire it into the air for no reason, don't like it just miss with it."

That said, you are right that it would somewhat reduce the dominance of the strategy of taking one weapon and never switching from it ever. I think that is entirely acceptable, because if that's supposed to be the default pro strat, why do we have 2 weapons slots? The DPS gains are going to be marginal over time because you'll have to reload your weapons eventually and by doing so you're making a real choice to forgo leveling an underleveled weapon via passive affinity leech or taking 1 fewer weapon to level the rest of your stuff faster.

I was there for that too. Look back far enough, and you'll see that I authored several anti-coptering threads. I'm well aware that the game pushes speed because it is a game of grind. That is because it is free to play. If everything was available but didn't require grind, they wouldn't make any money. I have likewise suggested methods to reduce the grindiness and encourage people to slow down. 

I'm going to callously ignore your insults and your insinuations that I don't know what I'm doing and continue to address the problem at hand.

"Two choices where one of them is demonstrably more effective than the other in all situations is not a real choice because it's basically saying "you have the choice to suck." It'd be like DE introducing an instant death beam weapon with infinite ammo and a beam as wide as a room and saying "you have the choice to fire it into the air for no reason, don't like it just miss with it." <<--THIS is exactly what you are suggesting adding, and this is my problem with all of the speed mechanics. We are forced to use them because otherwise we are left effectively unable to play.

As I stated, when there are many choices, some will be better than others, but this means that they are really choices. No play style is encouraged over another and there are multiple ways to win. The problem occurs when there is competition for targets in a non-endless mission. The fastest, shootiest players get all the kills, the rest get none. It's outright boring, it's frustrating, and it serves no purpose other than inflating the egos of the few who can rush the fastest. You want to build your Atlas for durability? Better not bring it on an exterminate mission; you'll be left in the dust. Building a duration focused nyx? I hope you like scavenging for spare parts. This is even my problem with the Volt rework that changed overload into discharge; all the enemies I stunned are dead before the damage even begins to tick because someone else has raced through and killed them as fast as possible.  

" That said, you are right that it would somewhat reduce the dominance of the strategy of taking one weapon and never switching from it ever. I think that is entirely acceptable, because if that's supposed to be the default pro strat, why do we have 2 weapons slots? The DPS gains are going to be marginal over time because you'll have to reload your weapons eventually and by doing so you're making a real choice to forgo leveling an underleveled weapon via passive affinity leech or taking 1 fewer weapon to level the rest of your stuff faster. " 

I don't think that is acceptable. We have two weapon slots to give players flexibility with what they want to carry. Every so often, people come about asking for more weapon slots. Your primary weapon is your primary for a reason: it's more powerful than your secondary, which serves a backup role. People run with one weapon not because switching takes too long, but because their one weapon can do the job. DPS gains would not be marginal because most people reload between engagements while moving between cells. What you're really doing is forcing one strategy over another by making it easier to perform. Again, false choice. If you want your share of the affinity, you must switch and keep shooting. If I can immediately follow a magazine from my soma with one from my dex furis, nothing in the room will still be standing, and the guy who brought a boar will be left with two kills to my twenty, unless he also brought a nice secondary, which he then HAS to use in order to keep going at the same affinity rate. There are already disadvantages to bringing only one ranged weapon. There is no need to magnify them. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

18 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

I see no reason to give up power, I like to wipe entire rooms with cheese abilities, it's what attracted me to Warframe to begin with and there are many others like me

it's usually envy why people want to nerf this, they can't stand other players doing this so they want to take other peoples joy out of the game just to suit them

Of course you don't. You don't see the status quo as a problem, so you haven't put any thought into how or why you might want to change it. You should realize, though, is that creating a balanced game that provides a fair challenge doesn't mean you can't feel powerful or have room-clearing abilities. It just requires a greater degree of discipline when it comes to indulging in ridiculous amounts of power. 

You can have a balanced game where you're able to either spam-cast weaker powers or cast jaw-dropping powers more infrequently.

While it would definitely be convenient for you if it were mere envy driving me to advocate for nerfs, I really don't give a rat's *** about how you play the game provided I'm not forced to play with you. What then, could possibly motivate me to adopt such an obviously insane position? My dissatisfaction with an imbalanced game mandating cheap, brainless gameplay. Beating the snot out of defenseless enemies is entertaining, sure, for about 10 minutes. Then it gets very stale very quickly, which is why I'd like to see Warframe adopt a bit more of a sustainable balance model. 

Yep, I'm just sitting over here consumed with envy over how many times you press your 4 key.

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Of course you don't. You don't see the status quo as a problem, so you haven't put any thought into how or why you might want to change it. You should realize, though, is that creating a balanced game that provides a fair challenge doesn't mean you can't feel powerful or have room-clearing abilities. It just requires a greater degree of discipline when it comes to indulging in ridiculous amounts of power. 

You can have a balanced game where you're able to either spam-cast weaker powers or cast jaw-dropping powers more infrequently.

While it would definitely be convenient for you if it were mere envy driving me to advocate for nerfs, I really don't give a rat's *** about how you play the game provided I'm not forced to play with you. What then, could possibly motivate me to adopt such an obviously insane position? My dissatisfaction with an imbalanced game mandating cheap, brainless gameplay. Beating the snot out of defenseless enemies is entertaining, sure, for about 10 minutes. Then it gets very stale very quickly, which is why I'd like to see Warframe adopt a bit more of a sustainable balance model. 

Yep, I'm just sitting over here consumed with envy over how many times you press your 4 key.

you don't realize that what you are saying is just plain wrong.

in this game I am not looking for balance, it's a mass horde hack and slash shooter and that's what I myself and many other enjoy about this game

we don't want balance, we just want more mobs and more exp numbers flying around over our screens

but I guess you don't seem to understand that and think we are looking for a tactical challenging shooter game

[EmptyDevil]

22 hours ago, TheScytale said:

Further proof that people differ in opinions?

Faster holster speed sounds nice, but I have 0 problems with the current holstering, so I'd rather have the devs concentrate on some bigger issue. Again, it's just my opinion.

You make it sound like this change would require weeks of developing and highly extensive testing to implement. All they would need to do is buff the value and change Toxin Elemental Ward to give a different buff, like buffing player resistance to knockdowns + procs.

[Thebel]

2 hours ago, Adder9 said:

I don't think that is acceptable. We have two weapon slots to give players flexibility with what they want to carry. Every so often, people come about asking for more weapon slots. Your primary weapon is your primary for a reason: it's more powerful than your secondary, which serves a backup role. People run with one weapon not because switching takes too long, but because their one weapon can do the job. DPS gains would not be marginal because most people reload between engagements while moving between cells. What you're really doing is forcing one strategy over another by making it easier to perform. Again, false choice. If you want your share of the affinity, you must switch and keep shooting. If I can immediately follow a magazine from my soma with one from my dex furis, nothing in the room will still be standing, and the guy who brought a boar will be left with two kills to my twenty, unless he also brought a nice secondary, which he then HAS to use in order to keep going at the same affinity rate. There are already disadvantages to bringing only one ranged weapon. There is no need to magnify them. 

This is highly misleading because of how affinity works, if Person B is trying to level a single weapon and brings a single weapon they stand to gain by Person A (you) killing everything for them.

By Person A doing all the kills, Person B's affinity distribution is 25%/75% (Frame/Weapon)

Killing with a weapon leads to a 50%/50% (Frame/Weapon) affinity distribution.

Had to mention that since it was bugging me.

 

I highly support the idea of faster swap speeds, it makes the game a lot more fluid when I use a bow and bullet hose for nullifiers. Currently it's easier to just brute force bubbles by jumping in with a bow and killing him vs playing it logical by popping the bubble and finishing with the bow. Depending on the distance they effectively take the same amount of time.

[Imrix]

It's a game about being a ninja. Rapidly swapping between weapons is very ninja. Why is this controversial, again?

[DiabolusUrsus]

23 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

you don't realize that what you are saying is just plain wrong.

in this game I am not looking for balance, it's a mass horde hack and slash shooter and that's what I myself and many other enjoy about this game

we don't want balance, we just want more mobs and more exp numbers flying around over our screens

but I guess you don't seem to understand that and think we are looking for a tactical challenging shooter game

Ironically, if you had actually read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I readily acknowledged our difference of opinion. How an opinion can be considered "just plain wrong" when it doesn't have any sort of moral implications is beyond me, but you might do well to notice that I don't need to sling insults at you or project a childish disposition onto you in order to make my point.

Here is my previous message, simplified: You may not see where I'm coming from, but that's because you haven't spent any time thinking about a problem you don't think exists. However, what I am advocating does not mean that you can't wipe rooms and feel powerful. Even so, Nullifiers will not be removed without a reduction to player power... particularly because they were introduced to counter an exponential growth in player strength. You are also dead wrong about what typically drives people to ask for nerfs.

Moving on, I don't presume to imagine what you want out of the game. That's for you to decide. I will, however, exercise my right to talk about what I want out of the game.

Back to the original topic at hand before this gets too derailed, though... here's another issue that would favor an increase in swap speed:

The ridiculously slow swap speed makes any object-based objectives needlessly cumbersome and annoying. Have fun switching weapons after picking up a datamass or dropping off a power cell. Especially if you need to repeatedly drop and pick up said object because of what's going on with your team. Granted, this is somewhat alleviated by DE trying to make it so that you switch back to whatever weapon you had out when you picked the thing up, but that feature is buggy and unreliable at best.

Having increased swap speeds - and hopefully increased pick-up speed - would go a long way towards making Mob Def/ Excavation/Sabotage 2.0 etc. more enjoyable in my eyes.

So... if you're interested in continuing to discuss the potential value of an increased base weapon swap speed in a rational manner, I'd be delighted to read your thoughts on the matter. If you are intent on continuing to parrot the same perspective like a broken record without bothering to mention anything new, good day to you sir.

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Ironically, if you had actually read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I readily acknowledged our difference of opinion. How an opinion can be considered "just plain wrong" when it doesn't have any sort of moral implications is beyond me, but you might do well to notice that I don't need to sling insults at you or project a childish disposition onto you in order to make my point.

Ironically, I never stated your opinion wa

 

s wrong, but you never mentioned it was just your opinion that there needs to be balance, you gave it as a fact, maybe you need to read what you wrote again?

On 8-8-2016 at 1:36 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

There's already kinda no point to most of those things, whereas Nullifiers are the poorly-integrated stitching that just barely manages to keep Warframe's gratuitous cheese in-check sometimes. Are they a crappy enemy design? Yeah. They're still just a symptom of overpowered players though. You want them gone? Gotta give up some of that power. Interestingly enough, switching between two different weapons that don't sweep rooms equally well might be a good place to start

 

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Here is my previous message, simplified: You may not see where I'm coming from, but that's because you haven't spent any time thinking about a problem you don't think exists. However, what I am advocating does not mean that you can't wipe rooms and feel powerful. Even so, Nullifiers will not be removed without a reduction to player power... particularly because they were introduced to counter an exponential growth in player strength. You are also dead wrong about what typically drives people to ask for nerfs.

Nullifiers were introduced to counter ability spam wiping the entire map, this has been possible pretty much since I started playing and the Nullifiers got introduced 8 updates after that, almost 2 years later...

 

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The ridiculously slow swap speed makes any object-based objectives needlessly cumbersome and annoying. Have fun switching weapons after picking up a datamass or dropping off a power cell. Especially if you need to repeatedly drop and pick up said object because of what's going on with your team. Granted, this is somewhat alleviated by DE trying to make it so that you switch back to whatever weapon you had out when you picked the thing up, but that feature is buggy and unreliable at best.

I could obviously say the same thing here: you want a faster swapping speed? Gotta give up some of that power, either in your weapon mod loadout or your Warframe aura

the feature about getting the weapon back that you were using is buggy as hell, whenever I have my melee equipped and I drop the battery in LoR it tends to switch back to my primary or secondary, pretty much all the time

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So... if you're interested in continuing to discuss the potential value of an increased base weapon swap speed in a rational manner, I'd be delighted to read your thoughts on the matter. If you are intent on continuing to parrot the same perspective like a broken record without bothering to mention anything new, good day to you sir.

well I could try, but seeing as you think a mod (which this whole game pretty much revolves around) is not a solution, there would be no point in discussing because we both clearly differ from opinion

[DiabolusUrsus]

32 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

Ironically, I never stated your opinion was wrong, but you never mentioned it was just your opinion that there needs to be balance, you gave it as a fact, maybe you need to read what you wrote again?

K. If you can't recognize an opinion for an opinion, that's not my problem. You're projecting the my "assumption" that everything I say is fact onto me. 

 

37 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

Nullifiers were introduced to counter ability spam wiping the entire map, this has been possible pretty much since I started playing and the Nullifiers got introduced 8 updates after that, almost 2 years later...

Ability spam in any significant capacity wasn't possible until the release of corrupted mods in U10. Nullies hit the field in U15, which was when DE finally got around to tweaking the Vault drops. DE also has a reputation for being slow on the uptake when it comes to necessary changes, so what's your point?

 

39 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

I could obviously say the same thing here: you want a faster swapping speed? Gotta give up some of that power, either in your weapon mod loadout or your Warframe aura.

Yeah, the game is all about being super-powerful and obliterating hordes of enemies, so let's insist on sacrificing a mod slot for convenience. At the same time, let's ignore how it actively detracts from the existing flow of gameplay and call it a balancing trade-off. Nope, don't buy it. You're singing two completely different tunes here. You said yourself you don't care about balance, so why argue in favor of it?

42 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

well I could try, but seeing as you think a mod (which this whole game pretty much revolves around) is not a solution, there would be no point in discussing because we both clearly differ from opinion

Again with the personal ridicule. My bulging ego is really taking a hit here, dude. 

I'm just of the opinion that mods should exist to counteract the effects of other mods, not patch a poorly-adjusted gameplay feature. All mods should have drawbacks (swap speed could definitely be one of those) and there should be mods for replacing those drawbacks with other drawbacks. Then we'd be closer to having actual customization instead of template-based progression controlled by random drops.

[BlackVortex]

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Ability spam in any significant capacity wasn't possible until the release of corrupted mods in U10. Nullies hit the field in U15, which was when DE finally got around to tweaking the Vault drops. DE also has a reputation for being slow on the uptake when it comes to necessary changes, so what's your point?

it was well possible before that, there were multiple ways to get energy back in huge ammounts, you only needed a trinity really

 

6 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Again with the personal ridicule. My bulging ego is really taking a hit here, dude. 

I'm just of the opinion that mods should exist to counteract the effects of other mods, not patch a poorly-adjusted gameplay feature. All mods should have drawbacks (swap speed could definitely be one of those) and there should be mods for replacing those drawbacks with other drawbacks. Then we'd be closer to having actual customization instead of template-based progression controlled by random drops.

there is no personal ridicule here, but take it as you will, this is your interpretation, you just assume it's meant like that while it isn't

and you see a poorly-adjusted gameplay feature, DE sees a way to introduce new mods to the game and considering how there are zoom mods, and how that also makes you zoom while aim-gliding, there is a mod to counter that effect, so I am fine with having mods for convenience, you are not, end of discussion.

 

[MJ12]

On 8/7/2016 at 6:54 PM, BlackVortex said:

then there would be no point in the Toxin Chroma buff, the Speed Holster aura, Twitch, Soft Hands and Reflex Draw and pretty much render them useless

again, I feel these mods are there for peopel that feel the need to increase their holster speed

if I was to increase my casting speed, I use natural talent and speeddrift, I do not go to the forum to complain that the skills have way too much casting time and that it is a QoL thing to make people enjoy the game more

you know what would be a QoL thing to do? REMOVE NULLIFIERS

 

 

If every skill took several seconds to cast, like pre-buff Bladestorm, people should in fact go to the forum and complain that the skills have way too much casting time. And guess what happened? People went onto the forums to complain, and it was fixed, because pre-buff Bladestorm was aggressively unfun for everyone involved. Simply because there are mods which exist doesn't mean something is okay. Right now, every weapon takes forever to switch to and from. Even games like ArmA have shorter weapon switch times than Warframe, despite having a slower pace.

Also, these things you claim this would obsolete already don't have a point. Who seriously runs Speed Holster when it's not literally the only aura they have? Which PvE weapon build has Soft Hands or Reflex Draw on it? How many people use Toxin Chroma for any serious content-and let's remember that Toxin Chroma also increases reload speed, and by quite a lot.

The reason people complain about weapon switch speed and demand that things be fixed rather than ~a new mod~ be put in is because weapons switch way too slow.