BLADESTORM: Does it really NEED to Change?

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Something something "high horse", you make some good points but at the same time I feel like you disregard others. One of Ash's problems is that his kit encourages spamming bladestorm, gives high reward for little effort and the rest of his kit except for teleport is underwhelming to say the least. His invis is too short, his shuriken is essentially useless without the augment, etc.. 

Since we are critiquing tone...

You have no clue how ironic the bulk of your comments in this thread have been given your profile picture... Just sayin'.

As for the rest, you are highlighting the thinking evident in the bulk of poor Ash players that spam BS. 

Teleport is awesome. Period.

If you think Smoke Screen is too short... You are using it wrong.

Shuriken has uses aside from the augment (quick fire in melee mode) but they are completely underwhelming... I don't see you talking about that along with screaming for nerfs though.

...Thanks for making my point so clearly.

5 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

As for hydroid.. his 4 scales terribly, it's unreliable and the only way to get decent damage/CC (at least in my experience of using him) out of it is to cast it repeatedly as the tentacles too often end up flopping uselessly, I feel like that's a discussion for another place though, many people consider Hydroid underpowered.

I agree... It does.

I don't remember seeing you in any of the threads asking for buffs to him though.

Get my point?

For most of you folks...

 

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

But I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to prove with the numbers: it's not dps, it's not even that he does so much damage that it needs to be nerfed because, much like Zephyr actually having a weirdly high outlier on her 4 for possible amount of damage dealth, it doesn't actually matter.

Spoiler

 

(If you want talk about Zephyr, stop in on any of the threads about her, I'm there on pretty much all of them.)

The point with throwing around numbers was to prove that, for 25 energy, it does higher damage than every other 4th ability in its class and has no damage mitigation, like other abilities do. Even Frost doesn't strip the armour before he deals damage, he does it after, as a function that opens up survivors to be killed by his team and as part of the CC that his ability grants. I did point out that nothing in game does DPS like Nova's 2, but that requires far more interaction, and even some luck if you have a poor connection, to pull off. And as for 3's being 4's... no, I wasn't going into those. If I went to all the time it took to compare every single 'press button and watch animation deal damage in a radius' ability in game, I'd be here for days. I stuck to those frames that have an ability in the same classification on the 4 button.

So for a specific trial, it does hold up, since given the same circumstances and number of buttons to press no frame can dish out the single target damage that Ash can, nor can they do it with the same self immunity and comparative damage mitigation during the cast.

With a proportionally high amount of unmitigated damage dealt, for a pure energy cost, where every other frame that can do even close has to combo abilities, or has to get lucky with sustained contact, and so on, it's not a balanced ability.

 

 

No, I got it the first time... You cooked the numbers to get what you were looking for.

I'm merely telling you (since you brought it up) that I find your numbers hard to trust because they looked cooked.

Without getting too granular... Even though you profess to have gotten the point, your comments suggest you have still missed it.

 

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

But further than that I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make in the post replying to yours:

The real reason for an Ash rework isn't the numbers, it isn't the imbalance of his ability compared to other frames.

It isn't because Bladestorm is too strong as an ability in a vacuum.

It's because it overshadows the rest of his kit and encourages players to ignore buttons 1, 2 and 3, in order to exploit 4.

Oh, I got it...hence my comments in my last 3 posts in this thread.

Your numbers are half-baked... This, by extension, makes your conclusions half-baked.

That doesn't invalidate your opinion, it just makes it a bit specious.

As to the rest... synergies and paradigms are nifty, but they have nothing to do with the pain points people are complaining about.

The problem is that it's mechanic has a habit of cutting other players off from targeting mobs and that impacts fun.

...Everything else is pretty moot after that.

Bladestorm will probably get changed, but it's going to do roughly the same dps (not dpe, and not dpt, but actual dps...I know stuff like that can get confusing) it does now more than likely but be more team friendly in the process.

 

But to take it a step further and highlight that cognitive dissonance for ya...

I can take your bolded commentary and apply it to almost every other frame in the game— And be right.

In truth, you could've just said, "I can't wait for Blade Storm to get changed", kept it moving and that would have been enough.

That, at least, would have had the benefit of truth. 

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Thus why I said, and you agreed: it's not how Bladestorm is going to be changed, it's how Ash is going to be changed.

I said it's an "on target" appraisal... But you keep zooming past it with what amounts to nonsense.

...No offense.

 

[Viceous]

Keep it somewhat the same just make it interactive in such a way as I dunno Resident Evil. Button pressin at key moments to keep the combo spree goin.

Exp. 4 to start ult next target hit E(melee),next left click,next target right click,next (E+ right click) ect, ect, etc.This while still camera movin to new targets.There nomore mindless 4 spammin.

 

Either way I rather DE make the clones resemble the way my ash p looks instead of how they appear now as just generic ash's.

[_Iye]

16 hours ago, bWild said:

I think it is terrible for the overall game flow that ash targets are invincible for the other players.

Strongly disagree on this with you and all those people who says some thing like that. I myself killed the so called BS targeted enemies with melee and bows hundreds of times and even yesterday while doing sortie (Augmented Shielded Corpus Interception) where a particular tenno kept repeating the BS and I was with Inaros and Dual Kamas killed many of his red marked enemies.

Quote

 A totally rework of the ability can result in Ash losing his role as a range nuke which means that he will be useless like all the other new frames who don't bring anything to the table...

This is where the fear begins mate, whenever DE retouched a warframe to favor the community! it rested in total peace. The evidences are in clear view and exposed to everyone.

@All Those People Who Want BS to be a real BSh.t;

Are you guys intentionally after ASH this time or what?? I feel not a tiny necessity of explaining the fun fact involved in this particular power or any frame's power where we people play games for fun only and danm it this is a game so please stop trying to find fun-unfun into a game's mechanics.

If you hate it this much then sell the frame and start playing without being any close to it.

Leave ASH alone, please (I am not a salty BSer and I use this so called BSh.t only when I am totally and sadly cornered for a breather but not for killing things and winning)

Edited August 10, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[(XBOX)Oussii]

On 8/9/2016 at 6:59 AM, SIFTXIX said:

The only reason why you're able to do the sorties more than once is because you dont have SOTR yet. When that drops, you wouldnt be able to do them again. Plus if you're doing the sorties defense or survival that have radiation hazard with a squad that has an Ash, who is the one to ruin the mission? The Ash because he's still using bladestorm and if he's hit with radiation, he'll team kill the squad in range. Doesn't matter how you do the sorties. The fact that you have an Ash in your squad (and i mean in general) will ruins the experience for a lot of people just because that person decides to using bladestorm. 

I don't know about SOTR, didn't get it yet.

And i do play ash with Radiation condition and our squad it doing fine

Maybe we are super heroes :)

[(XBOX)Oussii]

To all who oppose the current state of Ash.

If you don't like it, don't play using this frame, don't team up with a squad where they have ash, and let other players enjoy it

Just consider that this frame does not exist, ignore his play mode, don't join his squad.

After 12 pages of discussions, and probably we can have another 12 pages of arguments, i don't see the point to add anything else

You like ash and blade storm, fine

You don't like it, then as i said, don't team up with him, and choose another frame to play with it.

[felixsylvaris]

Blade Storm is boring. Press button, watch animation, write in chat "EV!" repeat. It could be done better.

For example make it stance, increasing Ash speed and jumping skills as well as providing some armour, as long as we kill the streak continuos. It also allows to shadowpounce to enemies. For lethal damage and all that (stagger them for short time). Maybe allow free Teleport. Could be even with combo with smoke since why not. Byt the main difference would be it would be very ACTIVE.

[xPerplexing]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

To all who oppose the current state of Ash.

If you don't like it, don't play using this frame, don't team up with a squad where they have ash, and let other players enjoy it

Just consider that this frame does not exist, ignore his play mode, don't join his squad.

After 12 pages of discussions, and probably we can have another 12 pages of arguments, i don't see the point to add anything else

You like ash and blade storm, fine

You don't like it, then as i said, don't team up with him, and choose another frame to play with it.

 

8 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

Blade Storm is boring. Press button, watch animation, write in chat "EV!" repeat. It could be done better.

For example make it stance, increasing Ash speed and jumping skills as well as providing some armour, as long as we kill the streak continuos. It also allows to shadowpounce to enemies. For lethal damage and all that (stagger them for short time). Maybe allow free Teleport. Could be even with combo with smoke since why not. Byt the main difference would be it would be very ACTIVE.

I'm just going to repost what @felixsylvaris said because this deserves a repost. 

[_Iye]

5 minutes ago, SIFTXIX said:

 

I'm just going to repost what @felixsylvaris said because this deserves a repost. 

 

35 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

You like ash and blade storm, fine

You don't like it, then as i said, don't team up with him, and choose another frame to play with it.

And I'm just going to repost what @(XB1)Oussii said because this deserves a repost in reply to your statement.. 

[Eldritchsqueaker]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

 

...Thanks for making my point so clearly.

I agree... It does.

I don't remember seeing you in any of the threads asking for buffs to him though.

Get my point?

For most of you folks...

 

I only started posting on the forums recently and mostly only in the update threads, and in fact I did comment on a Hydroid buffing thread recently anyway.. you act like you're above everyone and talk about cognitive dissonance as an excuse to ignore people's actual arguments. Hydroid being reworked is a ways off, Ash is getting reworked /soon/, people are going to talk about issues relevant at the time in a lot of cases. I'm sorry but your words are just seeping with arrogance, and frankly I have no respect for someone who refuses to show any respect in turn.

[Weltraumfred]

4 hours ago, AhmadIYE said:

Strongly disagree on this with you and all those people who says some thing like that. I myself killed the so called BS targeted enemies with melee and bows hundreds of times and even yesterday while doing sortie (Augmented Shielded Corpus Interception) where a particular tenno kept repeating the BS and I was with Inaros and Dual Kamas killed many of his red marked enemies.

 

As has been stated several times in this thread, if Ash or one of his clones is doing his breakdance of death on top of the target, it is invulnerable. If he cannot insta-kill said target, the target is awarded invulnerability frames.

Anecdotal data: It happened to me on several sorties with the eximus stronghold condition when I was playing Valkyr (warcry build with Scindo prime crit build, which does A LOT of DPS if the combo counter is high), that a enemy mob with a bunch of eximi (sp?) in it lit up red, and the tougher enemies became more or less invulnerable. I had to realign my attacks to another mob, and if you're doing melee mainly, that takes time, and comes with the risk of loosing my combo counter. So the Ash and his BS were actively detrimental to my own fun and playstyle.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Weltraumfred

[(XBOX)Oussii]

It takes bladestorm around 10 seconds to clear a room of 10 enemies

It takes the kulstar 1 second and 1 shot to clear it

so as per your statements guys, kulstar is dumb

and for others, kulstar is boring,. just stand on a wall, and fire it iy  up

I made a test with a friend:

me using Ash, him using Spova and a kulstar, and later on frost

Results:

Ash vs kulstar = 562 vs 700+

Ash vs frost = 488 vs 512

So let's consider kulstar and frost more OP. and start  the rework and nurfing with them.

Gee guys, no one is forcing you to play with Ash

Just enjoy another frame and let us enjoy or ASH-Buster

 

Ash Lovers vs Ash haters

[Weltraumfred]

Kulstar is dumb, but at least interactive and has the chance of blowing yourself up with it. Ignis, Tonkor and (Synoid) Simulor are also OP and trivialize content. There are quite a few stinkers in this game, that I would like to see nerfed*. But this Thread is not about them, its about Ash, and more specifically about Bladestorm.

* For Tonkor and Ignis, a decent nerf would actually mean that I'd use them again. I don't like cheesing stuff.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Weltraumfred

[(XBOX)Oussii]

Ash is bladestorm, Bladestorm is Ash

You don't bring it to a fight for any of the other 3 powers

Remove the 4th power and bye bye Ash ;)

[Weltraumfred]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

Ash is bladestorm, Bladestorm is Ash

You don't bring it to a fight for any of the other 3 powers

Remove the 4th power and bye bye Ash ;)

That there is a huuuuuuge indicator, that there is something wrong with a Warframe. If it depends on one power and all the other powers fall by the wayside, it should be reworked. Also see: old Saryn. I am not totally pleased with the rework, but boy did she need a rework. Negative duration Miasma was soooo broken, and her other powers were useless.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

2 minutes ago, Weltraumfred said:

That there is a huuuuuuge indicator, that there is something wrong with a Warframe. If it depends on one power and all the other powers fall by the wayside, it should be reworked. Also see: old Saryn. I am not totally pleased with the rework, but boy did she need a rework. Negative duration Miasma was soooo broken, and her other powers were useless.

Yes true, it depends on one power,

and instead of reworking it or nurfing it or whatever you wanna call it, just add another one as most of the others? lol

[Weltraumfred]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

and instead of reworking it or nurfing it or whatever you wanna call it, just add another one as most of the others? lol

I am not sure what you're typing here.

[_Iye]

32 minutes ago, Weltraumfred said:

As has been stated several times in this thread, if Ash or one of his clones is doing his breakdance...............

I've clearly stated my disagreement on that point which you may have not noticed clearly. I myself, several times, with any other frame, with any weapon have successfully killed ASH BS targeted enemies and never seen or found out them being invulnerable to damage. To me thats pure nonsense or just pure evil intent towards ASH. And just as you stated the word 'breakdancing' I can clearly catch you viewpoint towards ASH and feeling like will be a waste of time replying to you because you will just simply ignore my presented facts.

Wanna repeat something and that is please, if you dont like ASH's BS then try avoiding him in everywhere and dont get bothered.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

6 minutes ago, Weltraumfred said:

I am not sure what you're typing here.

never mind bro, i am maybe a poor lousy player

[Weltraumfred]

3 minutes ago, AhmadIYE said:

I've clearly stated my disagreement on that point which you may have not noticed clearly. I myself, several times, with any other frame, with any weapon have successfully killed ASH BS targeted enemies and never seen or found out them being invulnerable to damage. To me thats pure nonsense or just pure evil intent towards ASH. And just as you stated the word 'breakdancing' I can clearly catch you viewpoint towards ASH and feeling like will be a waste of time replying to you because you will just simply ignore my presented facts.

Wanna repeat something and that is please, if you dont like ASH's BS then try avoiding him in everywhere and dont get bothered.

Marked targets (red outline) are indeed still vulnerable. Targets that are in the process of being attacked by Ash or his clones are invulnerable to any other source of damage.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Weltraumfred

[_Iye]

44 minutes ago, Weltraumfred said:

Marked targets are indeed still vulnerable. Targets that are in the process of being attacked by Ash or his clones are invulnerable to any other source of damage.

I killed yesterday with Dual Kamas while doing the sortie first mission of Augmented Corpus Units (melee only) and with RAKTA CERNOS many times in many missions. Try yourself then talk. Its more like you guys are trying to establish something here by force....!!!

Edit: Even more to add, while I'm with ash and started B.Sht often it happened that clones or ash himself started 'your breakdancing stuff' but couldn't complete it cause someone else killed it with his/her abilities. With me, happened many times and I felt like I spent my energy to kill 0 enemies.

Edited August 10, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[Scylax]

I didn't watch the devstream / wherever it was mentioned, so I have no clue what the proposed change to Bladestorm is. Anyone care to help me out :D ?

Edited August 10, 2016 by Scylax

[LuckyCharm]

Personally I don't like bladestorm, not because it doesn't do a lot of damage, or look badass when someone else uses it.. but because it doesn't at all feel like it meshes with his other skills. You go from full ninja, invisibility and stealth takedowns, teleport finisher kills (without augment mind you. just straight finishers off the stagger) to Press 4 and suddenly theres a firefight going on and you're immortal for all of it. >.< Byebye stealth. Unless you build for duration which let's face it.. the only time you do that is if you're running covert lethality lately. Gotta have that range game goin on with bladestorm. No narrow minded here baby. 

 

Really though.  The skill needs heavy changes. If not to how it works then to its damage. It should NOT do finisher damage if it's kept as it currently is, as it pretty much nullifies the use of any other frame since no one else gets finisher damage on their aoe's which makes him the go-to frame for anyone who wants to cheese missions, (or is too lazy to get off their asses and forma some guns. All you scrubs out there know who you are. I see you with your Ash Primes walking in with level 18 weapons to sorties and wondering why I don't revive you.), OR full immortality during their cast animation. Even Valkyr doesnt have this. I've been killed plenty of times mid hysteria cast. 

Not to mention it's totally disorienting when you have laggy hosts. You can press 4.. run at a bunch of enemies, do a couple attacks then suddenly you're thrown about teleporting.

[Weltraumfred]

6 minutes ago, AhmadIYE said:

I killed yesterday with RAKTA CERNOS while doing the sortie first mission of Augmented Corpus Units. Try yourself then talk. It more like you guys are trying to establish something here by force.

And I was flailing like a madman with my Scindo at an Eximus who just lit up red and was attacked by Ash and could not touch it. So it's either a bug, or Bladestorm does provide invulnerability frames and you missed the invul frames with your Rakta Cernos shot (remember, the bow is not hitscan). Either way, bug or feature, it has to go.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 minute ago, Scylax said:

I didn't watch the devstream / wherever it was mentioned, so I have no clue what the proposed change to Bladestorm is. Anyone care to help me out :D ?

I was told, i did not watch it either, and i am not sure of the info here, that when using BS, ash can still move around while the clones bladestorm,,,

(or something similar),, but i am not sure if that, don't quote me on this :)

Anyways the discussion here is about if DE should reduce the efficiency of a BS and the fact that he is being able to nuke the whole map or no.

[_Iye]

12 minutes ago, Weltraumfred said:

Either way, bug or feature, it has to go.

That last line said it all. No use of trying to mean something to a mad man. Bye