BLADESTORM: Does it really NEED to Change?

[_Iye]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

that when using BS, ash can still move around while the clones bladestorm,,,(or something similar)

You requesting not to quote but I have to just because you are fairly right. I heard the same thing and nothing more than that, even ASH is having a rework after limbo which is why they said that ASH is not into their plan right now.

[Weltraumfred]

4 minutes ago, AhmadIYE said:

That last line said it all. No use of trying to mean something to a mad man. Bye

Sooooo, me saying that Bladestorm should not grant invulnerability frames to enemies, whether it is a feature or a bug (I mean it could be a bug, but it repeatedly happened to me), makes me a madman. Rooiiight.

I have to ask though ... diagnoses after ICD-10 or DSM-V? And I totally have to see your approbation.

[motorfirebox]

6 hours ago, AhmadIYE said:

And I'm just going to repost what @(XB1)Oussii said because this deserves a repost in reply to your statement.. 

Well, let's turn that around. If you don't like Ash after the eventual rework, you can play something else.

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

me using Ash, him using Spova and a kulstar, and later on frost

Results:

Ash vs kulstar = 562 vs 700+

Ash vs frost = 488 vs 512

Man, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but if you got beat by Frost, then you're not very good at Ash.

[BlackCoMerc]

Bladestorm overshadows the other abilities because someone thought giving Ash three abilities that deal damage was a good idea, despite how powerful the last one is.

Perhaps what needs to change...is the other abilities. Perhaps they need to support Storm better.

Not saying I am correct. I am merely exploring possibilities here, that's all.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

I feel like a little of both is needed, tone down bladestorm and bring up the other abilities. Maybe to fix the interactivity problem and the issue with it in radiation sorties, make him have to mark x amount of targets before activating it so instead of killing indiscriminately it targets enemies you've marked. 

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I feel like a little of both is needed, tone down bladestorm and bring up the other abilities. Maybe to fix the interactivity problem and the issue with it in radiation sorties, make him have to mark x amount of targets before activating it so instead of killing indiscriminately it targets enemies you've marked. 

Good idea, except marking enemies. The game just moves too fast for that.

The biggest problem Ash has, so it seems to me, is a game full of players who all want to get the most kills every mission. Because ap they came to Warframe expecting a pure, twitch, skill based shooter.

But Warframe is far more ARPG. And these games have classes that play Roles. One of which is DPS/Nuke. Making Ash more interactive still won't quell demand for changes if he's kept pure DPS/Nuke (which he should be) as he will continue to "steal" kills.

Player perception needs to change, too. And I think DE could help with that through communication, and through explaining the degree to which they have blended genres here...

Edited August 10, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Eldritchsqueaker]

14 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Good idea, except marking enemies. The game just moves too fast for that.

The biggest problem Ash has, so it seems to me, is a game full of players who all want to get the most kills every mission. Because ap they came to Warframe expecting a pure, twitch, skill based shooter.

But Warframe is far more ARPG. And these games have classes that play Roles. One of which is DPS/Nuke. Making Ash more interactive still won't quell demand for changes if he's kept pure DPS/Nuke (which he should be) as he will continue to "steal" kills.

Player perception needs to change, too. And I think DE could help with that through communication, and through explaining the degree to which they have blended genres here...

I think your perception of the problem is too narrow, personally, and if the problem with marking is that the game is too fast paced then make marking fast. It'd require Ash to have some actual set up before doing his teleporting weaboo room nuke that is bladestorm and it'd tie into his theme of being an assassin who marks targets for assassination as opposed to his indiscriminate 'kill everything' that bladestorm is right now.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Eldritchkitty said:

I think your perception of the problem is too narrow, personally, and if the problem with marking is that the game is too fast paced then make marking fast. It'd require Ash to have some actual set up before doing his teleporting weaboo room nuke that is bladestorm and it'd tie into his theme of being an assassin who marks targets for assassination as opposed to his indiscriminate 'kill everything' that bladestorm is right now.

By the time you mark 5 enemies, Prime or Avalanche or a well modded gun or Kullstar or...you name it... will have killed them. Forcing you to start over.

It's just Warframes speed is too fast for this. It's not a bad idea. It just wouldn't work here.

[motorfirebox]

Do it the other way around. Use BS to mark enemies and deal some light damage. Then deal massive damage to marked targets with other abilities.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

By the time you mark 5 enemies, Prime or Avalanche or a well modded gun or Kullstar or...you name it... will have killed them. Forcing you to start over.

It's just Warframes speed is too fast for this. It's not a bad idea. It just wouldn't work here.

Avalanche isn't good for damage though, at higher levels you won't kill anything. It's for CC more than anything.

[Rakosta_Kai]

11 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I only started posting on the forums recently and mostly only in the update threads, and in fact I did comment on a Hydroid buffing thread recently anyway.. you act like you're above everyone and talk about cognitive dissonance as an excuse to ignore people's actual arguments. Hydroid being reworked is a ways off, Ash is getting reworked /soon/, people are going to talk about issues relevant at the time in a lot of cases. I'm sorry but your words are just seeping with arrogance, and frankly I have no respect for someone who refuses to show any respect in turn.

FWIW, I saw your Hydroid commentary. While I don't remember seeing your comments before, I do see that you made one.

For this, I apologize.

 

For the rest and with much respect...

This is like the 3rd or 4th post I've seen from you mostly lacking in substantive argument but eager to provide your impressions of another person's post and the person behind it.

...But since you went there.

You want to know what arrogant is? 

^{_ar·ro·gant}

^{_{ˈerəɡənt/}}

adjective

 

1. having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

 

Railing about wanting nerfs while touting someone else's cooked up numbers as support for your argument for a frame you barely even play?

400 kills on an Ash Prime makes you a Subject Matter Expert?...That's arrogant.

Conflating a sortie mechanic into a cause for seeing a frame nerfed? ...OK. 

By your logic, every frame that can kill another/or group of frames under the radiation tag should be nerfed. 

...That's every frame.

 

You don't like Ash—and you don't like feeling like you have to use Bladestorm.... We get it.

You don't like the effect in Radiation sorties...That's a pain point (and there by design) that speaks more about the players you teamed with than it does the frame that got used.

Git Gud arguments aside, your opinion has weight— but your opinion isn't, imo, informed.

 

Like I said from the first... "Cognitive Dissonance aside, let's talk about where he needs to go to resolve the pain points."

...You ain't done that yet. You're still tromping around with the picket signs screaming at folks. 

What you are terming as arrogance on my part is merely a refusal to focus on irrelevancies.

For all that, you are welcome to place me on forum ignore if you find my tone offensive.

...That's much simpler than launching personal insults.

 

 

 

 

[Eldritchsqueaker]

20 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

FWIW, I saw your Hydroid commentary. While I don't remember seeing your comments before, I do see that you made one.

For this, I apologize.

 

For the rest and with much respect...

This is like the 3rd or 4th post I've seen from you mostly lacking in substantive argument but eager to provide your impressions of another person's post and the person behind it.

...But since you went there.

You want to know what arrogant is? 

^{_ar·ro·gant}

^{_{ˈerəɡənt/}}

adjective

 

1. having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

 

Railing about wanting nerfs while touting someone else's cooked up numbers as support for your argument for a frame you barely even play?

400 kills on an Ash Prime makes you a Subject Matter Expert?...That's arrogant.

Conflating a sortie mechanic into a cause for seeing a frame nerfed? ...OK. 

By your logic, every frame that can kill another/or group of frames under the radiation tag should be nerfed. 

...That's every frame.

 

You don't like Ash—and you don't like feeling like you have to use Bladestorm.... We get it.

You don't like the effect in Radiation sorties...That's a pain point (and there by design) that speaks more about the players you teamed with than it does the frame that got used.

Git Gud arguments aside, your opinion has weight— but your opinion isn't, imo, informed.

 

Like I said from the first... "Cognitive Dissonance aside, let's talk about where he needs to go to resolve the pain points."

...You ain't done that yet. You're still tromping around with the picket signs screaming at folks. 

What you are terming as arrogance on my part is merely a refusal to focus on irrelevancies.

For all that, you are welcome to place me on forum ignore if you find my tone offensive.

...That's much simpler than launching personal insults.

 

 

 

 

No, the part that makes you arrogant is that you seem to completely ignore people's actual arguments, or say stuff like "those numbers look cooked". You refuse any actual evidence because you grasp for ways to disregard it when it's presented to you. Read the actual subject of the thread, this thread is about bladestorm so that's what I- and others have been talking about. You talk about personal insults while degrading and insulting everyone indirectly. That is the problem, I won't be making any further posts on that subject, I just hope you can actually understand that. 

Edit: and the issue with Ash in radiation sorties is the instant and indiscrimanate nature of Bladestorm, you can make similar arguments for stuff like Ember's world of fire, but that gives time for allies to react and for the Ember to turn it off when they're irradiated. It isn't a sudden instakill that they have no control over like bladestorm is, and in my opinion the way Bladestorm works currently- which again was what the subject of this thread is about, is a poor design decision. The problems with the rest of his kit not withstanding.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Eldritchkitty
Forgot something

[Meliq]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 5:16 PM, Denninja said:

Remove it so he only has 3 abilities and I'll still main for Shuriken.

BS Bandwagon OP, nerf that.

I agree. Take it away.  Heck take BS away and give Ash an extra slot. I remember when BS was so broken you couldn;t us eit end game to they buffed it (by giving ash wrist blades) 

 

I figured I should drop this in. The way bladestorm works is pretty much the way it has always worked.  It wasn't until recently that anyone bothered to play him..  So I would not call it a bad design decision, more that the flavor of the game has moved away from the ultimates like he has.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Invisioblack

[Rakosta_Kai]

31 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

No, the part that makes you arrogant is that you seem to completely ignore people's actual arguments, or say stuff like "those numbers look cooked". You refuse any actual evidence because you grasp for ways to disregard it when it's presented to you. Read the actual subject of the thread, this thread is about bladestorm so that's what I- and others have been talking about.

See:

50 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

What you are terming as arrogance on my part is merely a refusal to focus on irrelevancies.

...We already know that Blade Storm is going to get changed. Making up more,"Why's" isn't relevant.

Personally, I would rather it be kept to it's theme but targeting opened up, marking removed entirely,  and toned down by having one( or more) clone(s) removed. While having utility/CC added to Shuriken.

Pain Points get addressed and Ash gets needed Utility to make him welcome in groups.

and...

20 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The point with throwing around numbers was to prove that, for 25 energy, it does higher damage than every other 4th ability in its class and has no damage mitigation, like other abilities do. Even Frost doesn't strip the armour before he deals damage, he does it after, as a function that opens up survivors to be killed by his team and as part of the CC that his ability grants. I did point out that nothing in game does DPS like Nova's 2, but that requires far more interaction, and even some luck if you have a poor connection, to pull off. And as for 3's being 4's... no, I wasn't going into those. If I went to all the time it took to compare every single 'press button and watch animation deal damage in a radius' ability in game, I'd be here for days. I stuck to those frames that have an ability in the same classification on the 4 button.

I knew the numbers were cooked from the outset... The author of said numbers admits to just as much.

They are within their rights to call them valid for what ever reasons...I am completely in my own rights to disregard the same numbers because they are plainly cooked up.

When you want to argue changes to something and provide numbers—Those numbers need to be as objective as possible. 

38 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

You talk about personal insults while degrading and insulting everyone indirectly. That is the problem, 

Negative. Noting that," there is alot of cognitive dissonance in the thread." as an open post (not a reply), is an objective appraisal of the comments in the thread itself, not the posters.

...I could just as easily have said, "There's a lot of hate/salt/etc in this thread" .

IMO, You got offended because you may feel that you are guilty of it...That's not my problem—That's your's.

However, citing:

"You (specific poster - not me) comments are narrow sighted"

"You (specific poster - me) comments are high horsed"

"You (specific poster - me) comments are arrogant"

"I find Your (specific poster - not me) comments offensive" 

-Can be viewed as personally insulting and these are a sampling of some of your comments over the last couple of days btw. 

41 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Edit: and the issue with Ash in radiation sorties is the instant and indiscrimanate nature of Bladestorm, you can make similar arguments for stuff like Ember's world of fire, but that gives time for allies to react and for the Ember to turn it off when they're irradiated. It isn't a sudden instakill that they have no control over like bladestorm is, and in my opinion the way Bladestorm works currently- which again was what the subject of this thread is about, is a poor design decision. The problems with the rest of his kit not withstanding.

Negative...

In the same scenario, Tons of frames would have done you up just as bad... Many would have done you up even faster, tbh. Cognitive Dissonance.

Saying one frame should be nerfed for it when there are many that can do it isn't consistent.

Your commentary about indiscriminate mechanics, etc, etc... There is no AOE in this game that lets you pick each of the enemies affected by it. Cognitive Dissonance. 

Were you being consistent, you'd be complaining about tons more frames at the same time.

Ash is a single target specialist with a successive single target AoE skill that's being abused by some players. It's not the pattern of abuse that's the problem insomuch (name a frame and we can all name a skill that gets spammed on it) as it is the pain points caused by the abuse.

That's where the discussion should be.

You can get mad that you feel like I am ignoring what, to you, may be substantive arguments...But such an argument would be relevant, consistent, and objective.

...The reasoning you put forward lacks these hallmarks.

1 hour ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I won't be making any further posts on that subject, I just hope you can actually understand that. 

I don't care if you make further posts on this subject or in this thread—It's a free country,forum, etc.

...Just don't make any more to me personally if you can't handle the feedback.

Please remember: I didn't start this little exchange... You did.

 

 

 

[DEATHLOK]

5 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Do it the other way around. Use BS to mark enemies and deal some light damage. Then deal massive damage to marked targets with other abilities.

This is an even worse suggestion than my suggestion of removing all player AoE from the game, which was entirely sarcastic, although likely popular with the self-proclaimed pro gamer crowd.

How about his new ability is making sandwiches for everyone? Then he won't steal your kills anymore.

Bring that up at the next design meeting.

[motorfirebox]

2 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

This is an even worse suggestion than my suggestion of removing all player AoE from the game, which was entirely sarcastic, although likely popular with the self-proclaimed pro gamer crowd.

How about his new ability is making sandwiches for everyone? Then he won't steal your kills anymore.

Bring that up at the next design meeting.

k

[(XBOX)Oussii]

16 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Well, let's turn that around. If you don't like Ash after the eventual rework, you can play something else.

 

Man, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but if you got beat by Frost, then you're not very good at Ash.

It shows clearly your lack of experience or simply lack of knowledge in Math

it takes 2 second with Avalanche to kill 10 enemies, while it takes at least 5 seconds with Ash. Do your Math

And i bet (with all my respect to you) i am better than you when it comes to Ash and its built.

It's just a matter of Mathematics which clearly you have no idea about it.

At last , i don't care about what you say and what you think, if i am good at ash or no (i am not trying here also to be a jerk)

Peace Bro !

[Eldritchsqueaker]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

It shows clearly your lack of experience or simply lack of knowledge in Math

it takes 2 second with Avalanche to kill 10 enemies, while it takes at least 5 seconds with Ash. Do your Math

And i bet (with all my respect to you) i am better than you when it comes to Ash and its built.

It's just a matter of Mathematics which clearly you have no idea about it.

At last , i don't care about what you say and what you think, if i am good at ash or no (i am not trying here also to be a jerk)

Peace Bro !

At higher levels, as I've said before, the damage from avalanche falls off steeply and it becomes a pure CC ability with damage on the side.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

3 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

At higher levels, as I've said before, the damage from avalanche falls off steeply and it becomes a pure CC ability with damage on the side.

It won't, specially if your damage is high

But let's assume you are correct, the same apply to Ash, no?

It takes Ash 2 to 3 sec to kill an ancient healer on a low level, but fore sure it will take him more than 5 or 6 sec on a higher level, no?

So whatever higher level apply on Frost, it goes the same on Ash

[Eldritchsqueaker]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

It won't, specially if your damage is high

But let's assume you are correct, the same apply to Ash, no?

It takes Ash 2 to 3 sec to kill an ancient healer on a low level, but fore sure it will take him more than 5 or 6 sec on a higher level, no?

So whatever higher level apply on Frost, it goes the same on Ash

Bladestorm scales better because it does finisher damage.. Avalanche just deals cold, bladestorm keeps going until they're dead.. avalanche is just a single burst, have you actually played Frost? He's not a damage frame he's a defense and CC frame. 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 minute ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Bladestorm scales better because it does finisher damage.. Avalanche just deals cold, bladestorm keeps going until they're dead.. avalanche is just a single burst, have you actually played Frost? He's not a damage frame he's a defense and CC frame. 

Clearly you need to revise your frost build

[_Iye]

16 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Well, let's turn that around. If you don't like Ash after the eventual rework, you can play something else.

 

First things first....so

Dont wanna live the future when actually I cant rather better try to make the present more comfortable.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, (XB1)Oussii said:

Clearly you need to revise your frost build

I'll take that as a yes.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 minute ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I'll take that as a yes.

Take it as you like, we are in a free democratic world (more or less)

I hope you know the kids story about the frog and the Cow :XD

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

It shows clearly your lack of experience or simply lack of knowledge in Math

it takes 2 second with Avalanche to kill 10 enemies, while it takes at least 5 seconds with Ash. Do your Math

And i bet (with all my respect to you) i am better than you when it comes to Ash and its built.

It's just a matter of Mathematics which clearly you have no idea about it.

At last , i don't care about what you say and what you think, if i am good at ash or no (i am not trying here also to be a jerk)

Peace Bro !

Yes, it takes Avalance 2 seconds. But you also have to get enemies in range. With Ash, your range is nearly infinite. So while Frost is still getting across the room to cast Avalanche, Ash is already over there killing fools. Moreover, past level 30 or so, Avalanche really starts falling off. You start having to cast it several times to kill. Blade Storm's finisher damage scales much further into endgame. I've played a lot of Ash, and I've played a lot of Frost, and there's simply no comparing the two. Ash kicks Frost's hiney.