Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Tizodd]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)ChiefsFury1984 said:

Clearly I've used Nekros a lot more then most people so ik what his drops were like b4 <snip>

Clearly, this^ made anything else you typed much less credible in my eyes.

Clearly assume much?

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

Here 1 more advice 

Run Solo 20 +Mins survival 

Run Extermination & Mobile Defense all solo let the enemies come in bunches slash em with punch trough & watch the desecrate 

 

After the missions look at ur resource amount on end game screen you will not see a drop off if hardly any at all..

 

Plus if u run with a squad trying sticking as close together & let the enemies come & you will see an increase in drops in defense, and excavation as well..

I'm not sure you have tried these but this is how I tested it & it's why I'm not seeing a decrease it's about how you approach the mission try it I think u might be surprised.. have a great day 

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Situational...loadout specific...meta solutions to the rescue info here

Just use slash weapons!

The change to desecrate isn't that bad you say? But you should compensate for the change by using just slash weapons....rrriiigggghhhhtttt....

It's always supposed to be like that more loot that way besides slash is one of the best damage types in game..

 

Slashing is more effective with desecrate it's always been like this..

 

It's why I always use slash with Nekros why ya think Nekros prime is coming with slash weapons? It's Cuz that's his thing that works best..

 

Have a great day 

[(XBOX)jbakos]

the issues that i'm having with this new nerf, because nothing about it is a "rework", is that one: the shadows are now a stagnate number that's well too low. seven shadows is the best that DE could do? come on guys, that's ridiculous. that leaves no room for utility shadows like shield osprey or shadows like the dhrak (?) masters and the like. secondly the health drain. i don't care what anyone says, its worse the the duration. why the hell would anyone think its a good idea to trade a duration for something that slowly kills our shadows? that causes us to recast MORE then just having a duration. its literately useless other then to make people not want to play as Nekros. so ill propose a few changes since complaining about it isn't constructive. firstly change back to duration or take off the health drain. one or the other DE. that in its self will redeem this frame from the dusty recesses of the Shelf of Shame. secondly either have the shadows increased by a LOWER percentage then before. that way we still have room for other shadows seeing as that the number of shadows not only helps him but also his team. what are seven shadows going to do at this moment now? nothing, that's what. 

i understand WHY you want to "rework" nekros, however this was not a rework but a nerf, and a nerf on on the squishiest frame in the game. but honestly seeing as that this is becoming a trend with you guys to nerf everything good about a frame into the ground games that i detest like Call of Duty and Destiny are looking better. and that is a shame to say the very least. please fix this before nekros prime comes out because at this moment i doubt that i would even consider getting it, even for MR. 

i love the vision what you guys have with this game, i really really do, but you HAVE to think things through with these reworks. yes its good to always be tweaking things to perfection, however if your equation is to nerf everything into a balance then youre going to lose player base. just..... if youre going to nerf something or rework something it has to be fair. give and take ya know? 

[F4talFr4me]

Agreed Gurpgork.

Sadly i dont see them changing anything. just leave the warframe that was already worthless to be even MORE useless after a "rebalance". how is that even possible? reworking a frame to make it WORSE than it was before?. DE found a way thats for sure.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Nekros' "rework" was disappointing as a whole, they fixed only one problem with him while compounding others and creating new ones. This has all been said, and people who have done far more thorough testing of him have said it. Nekros was already terrible before his rework, and they somehow made him even worse.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

47 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Okay, finally got around to doing all my playtesting and finally have time to write some detailed feedback, so here goes...

Italics denote very big problems.

Desecrate

  Reveal hidden contents

Problems Solved

• Frees Nekros's hands to do other things instead of spamming Desecrate for an entire mission. 

Problems Not Solved

• Players outright ignore Nekros's other abilities in favor of Desecrate because of the loot it provides; Strongly favors loot caving over interesting gameplay. 
• Provides nothing of unique value to Nekros's kit when unmodded.
  • Minions cannot use pickups of any kind.
  • Cannot be made useful within Nekros's kit with normal maximization.
    • Requires Despoil and Equilibrium, two mods that are useful solely on Nekros, and are difficult to either obtain or maximize.
      • Creates mod exclusivity problem unique to Nekros; no other Warframe needs a 10 rank mod that is useless on every other Warframe to reach their full potential. 
      • Limits Nekros's build diversity.
      • Combo provides infinite energy, which, while useful, provides nothing uniquely useful to Nekros; every Warframe needs energy.
        • Creates the same problem as Energy Vampire; Energy is inherently supposed to be restrictive, and having it in unlimited quantity on demand not only defeats the purpose of energy but also threatens game balance. 
• RNG dependent; infrequently provides what a player needs at the time of casting.
• Expected to have 100% uptime.

Problems Created

• Complete loss of player control over the ability; can suddenly sap large amounts of health or energy without warning.
• Completely brainless, especially with Despoil + Equilibrium; Just toggle it on in the beginning of the mission, completely bypass the energy economy for the rest of the mission for free. 

 

Shadows of the Dead

  Reveal hidden contents

Problems Solved

• Nekros can now heal his Shadows and summon them to his location.
• Strong aggro pull lessens the need for Shield of Shadows; enhances meatshield role of the ability.

Problems Not Solved

• Slowest cast time out of every ability in Warframe; Makes Natural Talent mandatory, compounding Nekros's modding problems.
• No way to direct Shadows; They attack enemies randomly.

Problems Created

• Size and therefore power of army was greatly reduced without any compensation. 
  • Utility Shadows such as Nullifiers or Shield Ospreys come with a sharp reduction to the overall damage potential of the ability. 
• Health drain is objectively worse than duration.
  • Shadows grow progressively weaker for their duration, requiring constant babysitting.
    • Problem compounded massively by combination of aggro pull and reduced army size; Each Shadow takes more damage by default, on top of losing a percentage of their health every second.
• Recasts require the full energy cost of SotD, compounding Nekros's need for an unlimited energy supply. 

Other Unsolved Problems

  Reveal hidden contents

• Small energy supply, making Nekros dependent on bypassing the energy economy to function.
• Terrify suffers from the mandatory augment problem; Slow effect makes Terrify better at crowd control, something that the ability already does.
  • Compounds Nekros's modding problems. 
• Low base range on Terrify. 
• Soul Punch is next to useless on its own; causes one enemy to ragdoll unpredictably, while dealing terrible damage and having no AoE capability.

I have to be honest, I'm disappointed with this rework as a whole. I'd be very underwhelmed by Nekros if he was released today. The rework, and the entire Warframe as a whole, feels half baked. You even left the cast animation for Desecrate unchanged, for crying out loud. 

The majority of Warframe reworks in the past were brilliant, but this one falls disappointingly short. 

Well said, Nekros needed buffs not nerfs. Everyone used him as a lootbot because he couldn't really do anything else. 

 

4 minutes ago, F4talFr4me said:

Agreed Gurpgork.

Sadly i dont see them changing anything. just leave the warframe that was already worthless to be even MORE useless after a "rebalance". how is that even possible? reworking a frame to make it WORSE than it was before?. DE found a way thats for sure.

Give them time, Rome wasn't built in a day. They've got a pretty hefty workload with Titania, War Within, the new mod fusion system, Nekros prime isn't coming for six days and if they can fix him before then I'll be happy.

[F4talFr4me]

6 days to fix him. thats all im giving them, they dont fix nekros by then i hope the community boycott the prime version as a last stand. they never even gave us a reply as to why they did these changes. thats what annoys me the most.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Do they have to comprehense? I mean this game IS a Beta after all ... so they leave trial and error to the player base...

 

The result was error...Can...fixin this error rly be considered "over"Balancing?

 

Me, i was among the people who Adressed his actuall Problems, in specific: Bad shadow AI, useless first ability, bad Range on terrify...and WAY too much inconvinience in generall... i mean his Hunger for duration (and prior strength) was and still is over the top...

I was allways running a shadow build and only ever used desecrate for the health orbs, leaving me with just the present percentage of the loot, PLUS ORBS. It is sufficient for his Gameplay ya know... just not sufficient anymore im terms of power efficiency and self-substain... (probably? mostly due to the missing guaranteed health orbs. I'll see how this is gonna work out)

Point is: it is not undertuned but rather the ideal ammount they desired for a while and which has been nothing but abused so far. It is enough for survival, probably even for substaining and support. Exactly for what it was meant to be used.

Is it anyone fault? Is there even a mistake? Didn't people ask for just this? Did anyone expect something else?...

I have yet to try him and I'm pretty sure that the health is missing but I'm not confident that i'd Miss the extra loot which would have resulted from spamming...

If you are asking if no one was actually asking for this change, you should know for a fact this is indeed not what anyone was asking for by the feed back given. If you are asking as a collective if this was not an out come we should have anticipated, that's different, but i don't see why it should be the case

A toggle drain on desecrate has only anything to do with energy. No one said anything about reducing loot chance or added health orbs to corpse loot tables.

This is where diminishing returns would have been nice as an idea. Just reduce the effectiveness the longer is kept up. If we have to have any reduced effectiveness at all.

Umbras, damage 3.0, diminishing returns....you know, just whenever you get around to it DE.

Im sure your feedback on the situation was just as important to DE everyone else's. Again why we are where we are, because it actually is important DE comprehend what it is people are asking for.

To my understanding:

Nothing happened to soul punch (his one)

His ult was limited

And they changed his desecrate ability

While leaving fear alone.

Did anyone ask for this rework specifically?

 When he comes out (and if and when I update warframe) I'll see too...but since neither of us have played him, arguing that he is fine as is, terrible, or ok doesn't have the same impact as feedback that pc players have....I would assume that is the best way for this system to function, relying on people with relevant experience on the topic.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[Eldritchsqueaker]

6 minutes ago, F4talFr4me said:

6 days to fix him. thats all im giving them, they dont fix nekros by then i hope the community boycott the prime version as a last stand. they never even gave us a reply as to why they did these changes. thats what annoys me the most.

Fair enough, I think being calm and reasonable is more likely to promote changes than anything though.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

That was hard to read, but I agree. Nekros' rework wasn't well thought out, I'm hoping DE listens and changes him by next week.

[(PSN)haffmo]

My problem is the new desecrate makes nekros too easy to play. You used to have to hide or pop terrify to stay alive. You had to keep tapping circle, but timing was a key. Because a single desecrate hit multiple targets. At 13 energy 5 or more targets was cheaper than 3 to activate and 3 per body. At the moment energy pads still work while desecrate is active. I wonder if Trinity can still give energy while desecrate is active. The other issue I have is health decay on shadows of the dead. It is just like duration. So why change. I thought there health would be damaged by enemies, but this is just a name change.

[(PSN)haffmo]

Btw Nekros used to be my favorite frame. My former clan claimed I was best Nekros they ever played with. I cant be sure how good I was, but wasnt a slacker. They used to say I would be farming Nekros prime til I got it. I used to think that as well, but I am not sure now. It seems like things get nerfed more often. Biggest for me was twin grakatas going from max sdps 48k to 17k. Almost a third. I feel nekros was a farm machine and now hydriod is probably the king. 

[(XBOX)jbakos]

sorry, but i was trying to get my thoughts out while trying to keep myself from throwing around insults. 

 

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

It actually doesn't even benefit loot farming other than making it easier to use because of the reduced loot chance with desecrate.

I was referring to having 7 shadows even with minimum power strength, which is what most Nekros players run anyway for afk lootspam.  

[Snowbluff]

3 hours ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Meanwhile, we have a Mirage and her entirely intended damage output for a damage frame.

FTFY.

 

Still, the health decay makes me sad. I would rather have them last forever, with the ability to heal them if needed, with being able to dismiss individuals if needed.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, (PS4)ChiefsFury1984 said:

It's always supposed to be like that more loot that way besides slash is one of the best damage types in game..

 

Slashing is more effective with desecrate it's always been like this..

 

It's why I always use slash with Nekros why ya think Nekros prime is coming with slash weapons? It's Cuz that's his thing that works best..

 

Have a great day 

I was pretty sure someone said slashing up the pieces sucks up more energy.

Have you updated your ps4 yet, because I havnt heard anything about an update, but I wasn't on yesterday....

(I'm skeptical you've even played him, that's where all the sarcasm is coming from)~ you could also be a pc player, I'm aware of that too

Like what you like, if you like slash weapons, that's cool. I like things that go boom. If an enemy is better taken out with an ogris, then with a grakata, will it make sense for me to support that enemy keeping that mechanic and telling everyone to just use an ogris rather that whatever the heck it is They would rather use? Any weapon in game can be used anywhere anyone wishes to use it at any time. And thank you, my day has been great, you do the same.

Edited August 17, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
You could be pc player too though, thats a thing that happens

[notlamprey]

The more I think about it, the more it boils down to this:

These changes do not feel like a rework. They feel like a nerf disguised as a rework.

 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

52 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

The more I think about it, the more it boils down to this:

These changes do not feel like a rework. They feel like a nerf disguised as a rework.

 

That's what I've been saying

[F4talFr4me]

58 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

The more I think about it, the more it boils down to this:

These changes do not feel like a rework. They feel like a nerf disguised as a rework.

 

Exactly this.

[(XBOX)GAMEW1ENER]

On 8/10/2016 at 10:59 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

The king of the dead has found new power in the dark arts.

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I found a new power too, the power to not use Nekros anymore.

[Arkvold]

9 hours ago, Windy_Wind said:

The change is nice overall but there are still a few things i want to see to change:

1. Casting soul punch on shadow of the dead creep will remove that creep. The reason is sometimes I summoned an undesired one like lancer or charger and wanted to remove it and replace with more powerful creep that I recently killed but I couldn't . Additionally, Doing will allow players to replace a new squad of shadows without having to wait for them to decade. 

2. Casting soul punch on a specific enemy will force shadow of the dead to spawn that enemy after it is killed even if it's considered to be weaker by the system. Only affect one enemy at the time. If I want to remove that one later on, see Suggestion 1. 

3. If all shadows are alive, recasting SoTD will cost half the energy.(or 75%). 

4. Holding 4 will teleport all shadows to players' location without consuming any energy because.....AI is stupid sometimes? Having to use energy to bring them back to players' location is pretty annoying...for me at least. And that's not even players' fault

I support everything in this post.  With these changes, you could remove the health decay entirely and Nekros would be perfectly fine.

[(XBOX)GAMEW1ENER]

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

The more I think about it, the more it boils down to this:

These changes do not feel like a rework. They feel like a nerf disguised as a rework.

 

THANK YOU

[F4talFr4me]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)GAMEW1ENER said:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I found a new power too, the power to not use Nekros anymore.

Damd. had a drink in my mouth when i read that. almost choked for laughing.

[(XBOX)GAMEW1ENER]

This "rework" feels like when my dad used to tell me he was taking me to get ice cream, only to find out ice cream was after my root canal appointment.