Please Fix: Bladestorm, Sound Quake, World on Fire and Synoid Simulor

[-CCC-Secret]

On ‎09‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 4:28 AM, (PS4)THE_HUNTER96929 said:

Im not forgetting that hall of mirrors was changed im just saying that when there are 3 balls, 1 full damage and 2 less than half damage, thats still more damage and a buff

Like @RealPandemonium said, it's only a buff if you build for max power strength. It's roughly 119.6% damage per clone and with Hall of Malevolence that's about 179.4% damage per clone. No mods and they only deal 40% and with only Hall of Malevolence 60%.

So compared to no mods vs with mods, I'd rather have it deal more damage but modded. Most Mirage builds focus on Duration rather than Strength.

Edited September 8, 2016 by secret9005

[ShortCat]

On 7.9.2016 at 0:23 AM, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

- Resonating Quake was a much needed augment for a frame who is excellent at buffing squadmates, but not so good at larger scale CC. sound Quake was just as underused as Sonic boom, and even now Banshee is usually only ever seen using her 2 or 3. plus she's still rooted to the spot making her an easy target for snipers if they get close before the quake gets going, and we all know how squishy Banshee is.

Banshee could and still can CC without that augment, she is even better at doing it without. I use all of her 4 skills, when I ned them. Like you said, mostly 2 & 3, but also 1 when you get swarmed by enemies and need some space as well as when you are about to revive a teammate. Same goes for 4. And yes, Banshee is rooted in place, but she also makes an area with 50m radios a safezone and she has 3 other teammates to clear up incomming enemies. Those are cookie-cutter arguments a non Banshee player would use.

On 7.9.2016 at 10:02 AM, Elyann said:

2. You need an augment to make soundquake work like that, it also is  some skill that consumes a ton of energy  and that isn't much powerful itself unless you mod it heavily and sacrifice even more duration and/or efficiency.

As I already said, her CC potential is better without augment. Energy consumption can be toned down to 3e/sec and energy pool can be boosted to 660 energy. I leave math to you to tell me how long she can do it.

 

On 7.9.2016 at 0:23 AM, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

- World on Fire decimates lower level mobs, but heat damage doesn't scale that well against tougher enemies, unless you use accelerant as well, which is really going to eat up your energy and you'll eventually reach a point where WoF with Accelerant still won't do much. the Augment helps make it a CC skill, but the only mobs truly vulnerable to fire are infested, and they have Ancients to help counter it.

If you think she is not a problem now, wait till Ash's rework, she will become a hot topic thereafter.

[Prepotenza]

On 9/3/2016 at 0:02 PM, (PS4)ghinellil said:

I play this game for a while, and this stuff is the worse in the game.

 

- Bladestorm: will be reworked, i hope very soon. All the baby spam ninjas will move on. I don't hate Ash at all (nice frame), just who spam for play. 

- Sound Quake: after this ability is active, the player can go in bath. Have no sense to exist, like an auto pilot. When i see a Banshee in interception, i already know how it end. Yawn ! 

- World on Fire: really too powerful. The worse in on exterminations; it become run from A to B. Another boring situation.

- Synoid Simulor: really? :O I can't believe it still around all this time. Please DE, limit the bubbles active at the same moment; shot another and delete the first. 10 bubble max. Let people use it like the Torid... with some brain effort. Plus it counter nullifier much better then other weapons. All the bubbles make a visual mess, especially in dark mission; sometimes i have to play looking only the mini map.

 

The best is to encounter an Ash Prime with the Synoid Simulor, in sortie with Radiation Hazard  ಠ_ಠ

 

P.S: i don't like "please fix" threads, but after 200 login days, my patience start to fall.

Bladestorm is currently the only way to play Ash, you might say you could go for a stealth build or some weird augmented-teleport build, but they wouldn't perform as good as a standard (0 forma) bladestorm build. Just wait for rework, until that comes all players that are just spamming bs with ash are doing the best thing with that warframe.

Sound Quake: the only move that currently permits to reach really high level content, we got already many things nerfed, I don't want this to get nerfed too.

World on Fire: World on Fire is great on extermination but the damage falls off so fast that you can't even kill level 60 mobs with that. Ember is just a speedrun frame for low level content.

Synoid Simulor: it got nerfed already to 1/4 to the original power. Seems more than enough to me, like World on Fire you can't really use it efficiently after a certain time.

We need a different enemy scaling not nerfed weapons/frames.

[Prepotenza]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Banshee could and still can CC without that augment, she is even better at doing it without. I use all of her 4 skills, when I ned them. Like you said, mostly 2 & 3, but also 1 when you get swarmed by enemies and need some space as well as when you are about to revive a teammate. Same goes for 4. And yes, Banshee is rooted in place, but she also makes an area with 50m radios a safezone and she has 3 other teammates to clear up incomming enemies. Those are cookie-cutter arguments a non Banshee player would use.

As I already said, her CC potential is better without augment. Energy consumption can be toned down to 3e/sec and energy pool can be boosted to 660 energy. I leave math to you to tell me how long she can do it.

 

If you think she is not a problem now, wait till Ash's rework, she will become a hot topic thereafter.

Banshee's Resonating Quake doubles the range of Soundquake meaning she can lock a huge area. Plus the damage without the agment is trifling. The energy cost is not a deal at all, you just need 3 energy restore pizzas and you will get 600 energy at the second tick.

As for Ember she is not a problem at all, she can't be compared to Ash or Banshee. Fireball sucks, Accellerant is good as a blind and adds fire damage (trifling, you can't do enough damage anyway), the 3rd one is really bad, if I'm not confusing it has a pretty decent augment that lets you knockdown enemies hit by that (or it may be the normal effect of the ability), and World on Fire is a really good skill in low level content but the damage falls off so quickly that can't be used in any high level mission (the augment is pretty good, I tried many builds with Firequake but WoF seems to target just a minor part of the enemies, leaving most of them non-CC'd).

I really can't see why people keeps moaning about nerfing Ember.
I would like to see a rework that makes her STRONGER because currently is just a speedrun/fun frame.

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, secret9005 said:

Like @RealPandemonium said, it's only a buff if you build for max power strength. It's roughly 119.6% damage per clone and with Hall of Malevolence that's about 179.4% damage per clone. No mods and they only deal 20% and with only Hall of Malevolence 30%.

So compared to no mods vs with mods, I'd rather have it deal more damage but modded. Most Mirage builds focus on Duration rather than Strength.

For projectile weapons only two are fired and the base damage per clone is 40%, btw.  

Edited September 8, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Elyann]

On 7/9/2016 at 11:36 AM, (PS4)ghinellil said:

I not need any. The game is playable and enjoyable. We don't need meta, and lazy spam methods for complete missions :) You might give a try.

Indeed the game is playable and enjoyable but I still don't understand why asking for nerfs.
I sometimes even play frames such as hydroid in high level missions just to have fun, so trust me....I gave it a try...and considering my MR after 2 years spent on this game...I gave it more than just one.
However, what's fun for you might not be fun for some other people, there's many ways to clear a mission, let everyone play as they want.

[-CCC-Secret]

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

For projectile weapons only two are fired and the base damage per clone is 40%, btw.  

Thanks for pointing that out. Does Hall of Malevolence take effect after damage has been increased by strength or before? I wasn't sure about this.

[RealPandemonium]

22 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

Thanks for pointing that out. Does Hall of Malevolence take effect after damage has been increased by strength or before? I wasn't sure about this.

It takes the HoM base damage * augment bonus, then takes the product and multiplies by power strength bonus; AKA it does not double-dip into the power strength stat the way Accelerant does.

[-CCC-Secret]

4 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

It takes the HoM base damage * augment bonus, then takes the product and multiplies by power strength bonus; AKA it does not double-dip into the power strength stat the way Accelerant does.

So yeah it's 119.6% per clone and 179.4% with augment (for some reason, wiki used the % damage for 2 clones). That is when building for max power strength.

Since Blind Rage takes out too much efficiency most would probably not use it instead. That's 200% power strength with Transient Fortitude, Intensify and Power Drift.

Using just those it's 80% per clone and 120% with augment.

Now if a R2 Blind Rage is used that would be 227% power strength.

That would be 90.8% per clone and 136.2% with augment.

Taking all those into account, it would be a nerf to Mirage + S. Simulor combo. IMO I wouldn't really call it a nerf, more of a fix because that's how damage should originally be.

[(PSN)ghinellil]

14 hours ago, Elyann said:

Indeed the game is playable and enjoyable but I still don't understand why asking for nerfs.
I sometimes even play frames such as hydroid in high level missions just to have fun, so trust me....I gave it a try...and considering my MR after 2 years spent on this game...I gave it more than just one.
However, what's fun for you might not be fun for some other people, there's many ways to clear a mission, let everyone play as they want.

The nerf you talking about, soon or later will happens. Is not a matter if is right or wrong, only of time.

Or you think they made enemies, maps, levels, missions, weapons, sorties, for let players use always the same tools and constantly cheat? They already knew the issues.

[-CCC-Secret]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

They already knew the issues.

Then why bother posting such threads? If they already knew about the issues, and are planning to fix them, why even make nerf threads. Will it make them fix it faster? Most certainly not.

1 hour ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

Or you think they made enemies, maps, levels, missions, weapons, sorties, for let players use always the same tools and constantly cheat?

They released power efficiency mods didn't they?

[(PSN)ghinellil]

1 minute ago, secret9005 said:

Then why bother posting such threads?

Because i have fun. You can't judge my fun ;)

 

15 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

They released power efficiency mods didn't they?

If you really think this, i don't want even start to argue about. Is pointless.

 

Just want to remind you this:

Quote

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

From here: 

You can read that in the way you like... I already have an opinion about.

[-CCC-Secret]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

Because i have fun. You can't judge my fun ;)

Well that's one way to answer that. Two different situations, but okay.

37 minutes ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

If you really think this, i don't want even start to argue about. Is pointless.

Just want to remind you this:

From here: 

You can read that in the way you like... I already have an opinion about.

It's almost 2 years. They should've removed power efficiency back then when they had the chance. If they did, we wouldn't be having this problem.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

The problem with ash i think is less "he is too strong", and more "bladestorm is the ONLY viable late-game damage power"

To me, there are 6 categories of powers (with some powers occupying multiple categories):
Support   -   healing and other buffs like blessing and roar
Crowd Control   -   area denial and enemy "deactivation" like soundquake, undertow and rest
Movement   -   abilities like speed, wormhole and tailwind
Stealth   -   smokescreen, prowl and silence
Defence   -   warding halo, shattershield and snowglobe
Offence   -   anything thats designed to deal damage

Support generally has no problems with scaling as warframes generally have maximum achievable shields/health unlike enemies and buffs are percentage based meaning the better the gear the better the improvement. Crowd Control, Movement and Stealth work equally well regardless of enemy level, a level 400 bombard wont be able to magically see through ivara's prowl and crowd control's only weakness is enemy resistances such as the nullifiers and ancient disruptors. Defence is at the mercy of enemy level scaling but improvements have been made such as iron skin and snow globe each having invulnerability periods that buff the health of the ability based on damage taken as well as borrowing the warframe's armour stat.

Offence on the other hand is no match for high level enemies. DE has sorta remedied this by giving certain abilities "utility" effects, mainly in the crowd control format, but by not directly addressing the damage issue Warframe is left with a severe lack of actual late-game-viable damage dealing frames. Frames like Mesa are good and all with their abilities that scale with equipped mods but even then, when up against high level enemies that aren't the infested, a well modded regular gun will often be better.

Enter ash.
Ash's bladestorm deals finisher damage and has guaranteed slash procs (that also deal finisher damage). For the uninitiated, finisher damage ignores armour and shield, meaning its only weaknesses are power resistances (nullifiers, stalker, ancient disruptors) and naturally high health enemies (bladestorm users have probably noticed getting "stuck" on corpus techs, for instance).

There are only 4 other abilities that allow finisher damage:
Hydroid's undertow            -   This power is WEAK (25 damage per second) and is designed more for area denial.

Hydroid's tentacle swarm   -   Is subject to power duration, meaning maxxing out the efficiency harms potential damage. Without mods, if every tentacle collects an enemy right from the get-go you could be looking at a total of 48,000 finisher damage (less than 2 level 80 grineer heavy gunners). Bladestorm allows for 124,200 finisher damage (thats including the bleed procs) for the same cost and granting a reprieve from combat.

Valkyr's Hysteria                 -   Is capable of landing finishers if proceeded by a charge attack or paralyse. This finisher deals 16,000 damage before melee mods or the combo counter is taken into account. Although it is repeatable for very little energy cost, it is still limited to single targets (and in writing this i realize exalted blade and primal fury can likely perform finisher damage in the same way, but im going off the wiki)

Trinity's blessing                 -   Like undertow, it does almost no damage because its designed for other purposes.


So how is this fixable? How do we allow warframe damage powers to be powerful enough to be useful in the late-game without allowing a rank 1 excalibur to steamroll level 40 enemies with slashdash?
Convert x% of the output damage to finisher type damage. Where  x = EnemyLevel / 2    (number purely example)
Abilities like polarise (are there any others like it?) that have mechanics that dont directly damage health would not be changed to finisher (but the exploding shields/shards could be) and would instead follow a different formula that simply scales the damage... because the 400 damage from polarize isnt going to do jack against a level 100 corpus tech's 13,800 shield no matter which way you mod it.

[Old_King_Belgothia]

Nerfs are the last thing we need. Stop asking for more, bloody hell.