The numbers in Primed pressure point do not add up!

[Deshiel]

 

 

This is Primed pressure point e graph  for the meele mod that adds +DMG to your wepuns. It shows (from left to right) RANK, gain, drain/cost and conclave

0	+15%	4	C10
1	+30%	5	C11
2	+45%	6	C12
3	+60%	7	C13
4	+75%	8	C14
5	+90%	9	C15
6	+105%	10	C16
7	+120%	11	C17
8	+135%	12	C18
9	+150%	13	C19
10	+165%	14	C20

Below is regular pressure point.

Notice how the primed version gives less  damage gain but continues to add on drain/cost

 

0	+20%	4	C8
1	+40%	5	C8
2	+60%	6	C11
3	+80%	7	C14
4	+100%	8	C17
5	+120%	9	C20

 

Other primed damage mods do not screw you by weakening the damage gain from rank 0 to 10 like this little bastard does. Since this case is unique I'm wondering if its some sort of bug. That nobody cares about because Primed pressure point is not very common. 

I'm in a situation where I have primed pressure point on Rank 6, but it only provides +105% and takes away 10 points while the maxed regular pressure point gives +120% but takes only 9 points of my mod space.

Additional info:

Maxed pressure point gives +120% dmg and costs only 9 mod points.

Fusion from R0-to R5MAX is a matter of a small amount of Endo, Around 300-500

Primed Pressure Point has +120% on R7! for 11 mod points! 

Fusion from R0-R7 is like 1000-4000 Endo...

Edited September 16, 2016 by Deshiel

[tifanator]

It's supposed to be like this. And you're partially right, unless you have it at R8 or above, regular Pressure Point will clearly be better. 

4 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

Other primed damage mods do not screw you by weakening the damage gain from rank 0 to 10 like this little bastard does. Since this case is unique I'm wondering if its some sort of bug. 

Pistol Gambit and its primed version also have this characteristic. Normal mod gives 20% per rank, Primed gives 17%.

[JudasMaiden]

You are a bit late to the party. Back when this was released, there were already a wave of threads discussing this discrepancy.

My guess is, the devs did it on purpose, since it is a Primed Mod and all, and maybe they thought that making it like other Primed mods (with base stat the same as the normal mod) would have made the maxed mod too powerful compared to other Mods (if ranked like other Primed Mods, Primed Pressure Point would have a +220% increase in melee damage at rank 10 - unlike other similar Primed Mods, namely Primed Point Blank, Primed Heavy Trauma or Primed Pistol Gambit, which offer +165% boost). 

That's why it ended up like it is now, I guess. I don't like it anymore than you do, and that's why I still use normal Pressure Point over the Primed one. If this was intended, I doubt that DE will change it, but if not, then maybe we will see it sorted out someday. But till then, we are stuck with this. And DE has not mentioned anything regarding this either (well, not that I know of, anyways).

[YUNoJump]

The point isn't to be just as efficient as the normal version, it's to provide a higher maximum, a max rank of any primed mod is going to give you more power than the original no matter what, and the tradeoff is more work to level it up. Even the primed mods that level with the same stat increases and cost as the normal version are technically worse because you're spending more Endo on the same increase, but once you go above the max rank of the normal version the primed mod obviously becomes better.

[Deshiel]

15 minutes ago, RequiemForHarambe said:

It's supposed to be like this. And you're partially right, unless you have it at R8 or above, regular Pressure Point will clearly be better. 

Pistol Gambit and its primed version also have this characteristic. Normal mod gives 20% per rank, Primed gives 17%.

Think about it this way.

Maxed pressure point gives +120% dmg and costs only 9 mod points.

Fusion from R0-to R5MAX is a matter of a small amount of Endo, Around 300-500

Primed Pressure Point has +120% on R7! for 11 mod points! 

Fusion from R0-R7 is like 1000-4000 Endo...

[(XBOX)Sic Mirx]

It just goes to show that Prime mods aren't necessities, they are luxury items. If you can, do. If not, whatever.

[Deshiel]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Sic Mirx said:

It just goes to show that Prime mods aren't necessities, they are luxury items. If you can, do. If not, whatever.

Guess I'll treet my primed mod as tiny, expensive and hard to maintain lamborghinis from now on

[DEADSHOT456]

10 minutes ago, RequiemForHarambe said:

Pistol Gambit and its primed version also have this characteristic. Normal mod gives 20% per rank, Primed gives 17%.

Yes, but in case you missed it, Primed Pistol Gambit costs less mod points for the same rank of Pistol Gambit.

So, if you have a Rank 5 Primed Pistol Gambit and a Rank 5 Pistol Gambit, Primed Pistol Gambit will give less crit chance, but will also cost less mod points. At rank 5, Pistol Gambit gives 120% crit and costs 9 mod points, while Prime Pistol Gambit gives 102% crit but costs 7 mod points.

As a matter of fact, for same mod point cost, lets say, 7 mod points, Primed PG will be better than PG, Primed PG giving 102% crit for 7 mod points while PG giving 80% crit for 7 mod points.

Primed Pistol Gambit is therefore, always better than Pistol Gambit when we consider equal mod point drain.

This is not the case for Prime Pressure Point and Pressure Point.

It is amusing that Primed PP is always worse than PP till Rank 7. And the fun does not stop there. At rank 7, Primed PP gives 120% damage and costs 11 mod points, while PP at Rank 5 gives 120% damage and costs 9 mod points.

So, yes, Primed PP does screw players if they can not afford to go to at least Rank 8.

I contacted Rebecca when Primed PP was released and she said that it is working as intended. So, yeah, we are stuck with the anomaly.

What I do not understand though is that why was it necessary to give Primed PP less damage per rank. If they were so concerned about melee being OP, why did they release Prime PP in the first place and decided to release a gimped version.

[o.0-]

Compare to Serration and Primed Point Blank, it is the same:

Making Hornet Strike an outlier.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Even the primed mods that level with the same stat increases and cost as the normal version are technically worse because you're spending more Endo on the same increase, but once you go above the max rank of the normal version the primed mod obviously becomes better.

By that logic, Primed Pressure Point at Rank 5 should either be equal to Pressure Point at Rank 5(120%), but need more Endo(like Continuity vs Primed Continuity) and then be better as we go on from Rank 6.

But that is not the case. At Rank 5, Primed PP is worse than PP in every way possible. More Endo, more mod point drain, less damage.

• Either it should be like Primed Continuity and the only drawback for being able to go to Rank 10 should be more Endo.
• Or, it should be like Primed Pistol Gambit and cost less mod points for the same rank as normal PP.

Just because it was given the ability to go to 10 ranks does not justify adding 3 drawbacks to it. Especially, since those last 5 ranks do not come for free, I still have to work towards it.

If DE was so worried about powercreep, why release a Primed version of Pressure Point in the first place? Just to have loads of illogical inconsistencies in the game?

1 hour ago, JudasMaiden said:

My guess is, the devs did it on purpose, since it is a Primed Mod and all, and maybe they thought that making it like other Primed mods (with base stat the same as the normal mod) would have made the maxed mod too powerful compared to other Mods (if ranked like other Primed Mods, Primed Pressure Point would have a +220% increase in melee damage at rank 10 - unlike other similar Primed Mods, namely Primed Point Blank, Primed Heavy Trauma or Primed Pistol Gambit, which offer +165% boost). 

Yes, but then it should have followed the trend followed by Primed Pistol Gambit. It should have reduced base mod drain(from 4 to 2).

That would have justified the Endo investment.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[Inarticulate]

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Yes, but then it should have followed the trend followed by Primed Pistol Gambit. It should have reduced base mod drain(from 4 to 2).

A trend with only one data point is not a trend.

[DEADSHOT456]

3 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

A trend with only one data point is not a trend.

Good, then both Primed PP and Primed Pistol Gambit should follow other Primed mod's trend, as there are numerous data points that follow that trend.

Good Logic. Welcome more powercreep.

[YUNoJump]

2 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

By that logic, Primed Pressure Point at Rank 5 should either be equal to Pressure Point at Rank 5(120%), but need more Endo(like Continuity vs Primed Continuity) and then be better as we go on from Rank 6.

But that is not the case. At Rank 5, Primed PP is worse than PP in every way possible. More Endo, more mod point drain, less damage.

I think you've missed the point. My point doesn't have anything to do with a Primed mod's effectiveness before it is max rank, it's to do with the fact that a Primed mod is better than its normal counterpart AT max rank. Warframe builds are all about maximising potential; you use Formas and Potatoes to maximise the amount of mod power you can utilise, you get Mods to max rank so that you can get the best boost possible. Primed mods aren't really designed to be economic decisions, they're designed to give a boost bigger than anything else at a high cost, such that you need to Forma items and have your builds work around the Primed mod. As long as the Mod's buff is better than anything else available they will always be viable, you just need to put more work into your builds to fit the mod in. If your Primed mods are at a level where something is better then you should either level the mod higher, or find an alternative build.

The main reason I see for Primed Pressure Point's existence is that Pressure point doesn't give as much of a damage buff as other flat-damage-increase mods. Serration gives +165%, Hornet Strike gives +220% (I assume because secondaries generally deal less base damage and the devs want to make them more viable as the main weapon in a loadout), normal Point Blank gives +90% but it also has a Primed version that puts it up to +165% like serration and Primed PP. 

This is why Primed PP doesn't increase at the same rate as its normal version; they want to keep the bonus at the standard level of +165% for balance reasons.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 minute ago, YUNoJump said:

I think you've missed the point. My point doesn't have anything to do with a Primed mod's effectiveness before it is max rank, it's to do with the fact that a Primed mod is better than its normal counterpart AT max rank.

Is there any official source to what you claim? I have never heard any of the Devs say "Primed mods are supposed to be better only AT MAX RANK". Stop creating your own logic.

Not a single Primed mod is worse than it's normal counterpart at any given rank, except Primed PP. It is either equal to the normal counterpart(like almost every Primed mod) or better(like Primed Pistol Gambit as I mentioned my first post in this thread).

Primed PP is the only primed mod that is worse than the normal PP upto as high as Rank 7.

10 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Primed mods aren't really designed to be economic decisions, they're designed to give a boost bigger than anything else at a high cost,

Tell that to every other primed mod except Primed PP.

At this point, your whole logic is a fallacy because every other primed mod, at any given rank, is either equal or better in terms of stats when compared to their normal counterpart at the same rank. And the only reason they need more Endo is due to their rarity being legendary, not because you think that they are supposed to be "not economic".

14 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

The main reason I see for Primed Pressure Point's existence is that Pressure point doesn't give as much of a damage buff as other flat-damage-increase mods.

Then DE should have just buffed Pressure Point to 165% instead of releasing a band-aid which is shows inconsistency in stats with no proper explanation other than "because Devs decided it".

Same goes for Point Blank.

Moreover, it is not even a proper logic. For 3 years, it was fine with different values of +damage% for different types of weapons. And you think DE suddenly thought of making is 165% for everything and that too by using primed mods?

Why is Hornet Strike 220% then? Which brings me to your next assumption -

19 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Hornet Strike gives +220% (I assume because secondaries generally deal less base damage and the devs want to make them more viable as the main weapon in a loadout),

Go in the game and compare the base damage of secondaries and most rifles. There is just 1 single rifle (not sniper or bows) that has a base damage over 100 and that is Grinlock@120.

Meanwhile, there are 10+ semi-auto secondary that have 100+ base damage.

Not to mention the fact that secondaries can attain much higher multishot value.

If anyone needs a 220% damage mod, it is certainly not the secondaries.

31 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

This is why Primed PP doesn't increase at the same rate as its normal version; they want to keep the bonus at the standard level of +165% for balance reasons.

It is perfectly fine it Primed PP does not increase at 20%. Primed Pistol Gambit also does not increase at 20% , probably due to balance reasons.

But Primed Pistol Gambit has lower base mod cost. That makes it better than Pistol Gambit at every stages(obviously, neglecting Endo requirements because legendary) and does not make it too OP at max rank as well.

Primed PP however is worse in every single way possible upto Rank 7. If DE just reduced the base cost to 2, it would have been better than PP at every point, just like Primed Pistol Gambit.

And no, don't say it is like that because it can go to 10 ranks and is better starting at 8. Just don't repeat that argument. I have already said that other primed mods offer equal or better stats at every single rank.

There is absolutely no justification or logic behind Primed PP. The only explanation is "Because DE decided..."

[YUNoJump]

Woah there's a whole lot here to cover, but I'll try.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Is there any official source to what you claim? I have never heard any of the Devs say "Primed mods are supposed to be better only AT MAX RANK". Stop creating your own logic.

Ok no there's no official source, but my argument is based on the idea that Primed mods exist as endgame items that give unparalleled levels of power. I also made the point that maximisation is a core part of Warframe builds, as we see with Formas and Potatoes, so it seems reasonable to assume that really, ANY mod is designed to be better at max rank. I also never said that Primed mods are ONLY better at max rank, I simply meant that if you get a Primed mod to max rank then it will ALWAYS be better than it's normal version, no matter what, until the end of time. What happens to the ranks along the way doesn't really have to matter, if you are concerned about mod power then pop a Forma on and then you're only spending 7 power on the mod, Primed mods are endgame items that are supposed to be maximised along with every other mod, relentless Forma-ing is part of endgame life.

Damage mods like PP, serration etc are core parts of almost any build so its generally a good idea to get them in your build first at their maximum potential, THEN get everything else on.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Then DE should have just buffed Pressure Point to 165% instead of releasing a band-aid which is shows inconsistency in stats with no proper explanation other than "because Devs decided it".

DE never does this. Look at Harkonar Scope, Depleted Reload, Body Count, elemental status mods. All of these mods/sets exist to fix issues with existing systems. without harkonar scope/body count, combo timers on their respective weapons are basically useless. Without depleted reload the Vectis Prime is actually worse than its non-prime counterpart. Without elemental status mods it's basically impossible to create a status build. DE prefers to release new content to fix issues with the game rather than trying to change existing content, that's how they choose to work and that's what they chose to do with Primed PP. Additionally, the Primed pistol and shotgun crit mods are basically what allowed proper shotgun/pistol crit builds to come about, and primed point blank is the exact same situation as Primed PP.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Moreover, it is not even a proper logic. For 3 years, it was fine with different values of +damage% for different types of weapons. And you think DE suddenly thought of making is 165% for everything and that too by using primed mods?

Well it wasn't REALLY fine with different values for melee for 3 years, Melee 2.0 happened because melee weapons WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH. They could have changed the mods but instead they changed the damage of all melee weapons separately, I assume so that beginner players wouldn't have to deal with consistently bad melee weapons until they got mods that fix the whole system. And if the devs changed every melee weapon's damage output then they wouldn't need to change the mods.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Why is Hornet Strike 220% then? Which brings me to your next assumption -

Go in the game and compare the base damage of secondaries and most rifles. There is just 1 single rifle (not sniper or bows) that has a base damage over 100 and that is Grinlock@120.

Meanwhile, there are 10+ semi-auto secondary that have 100+ base damage.

Not to mention the fact that secondaries can attain much higher multishot value.

If anyone needs a 220% damage mod, it is certainly not the secondaries.

I'm gonna be honest I haven't taken a good look at the dps output of every single weapon in the game, but what i can see is that a lot of the "best" guns in the game as determined by meta are primaries. (soma prime, boltor prime, tigris(and prime), tonkor) Yes there are "meta" secondaries and melee weapons, but when someone says "this is easy I can destroy everything in sight with my-"they almost always follow up with a primary. And that's the situation that they are CURRENTLY in, even with pistols having a superior damage mod and higher multishot potential. Anyway, this isn't the point, this argument is about melee weapons, the reason as to why Hornet Strike is a higher boost doesn't matter here.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

It is perfectly fine it Primed PP does not increase at 20%. Primed Pistol Gambit also does not increase at 20% , probably due to balance reasons.

But Primed Pistol Gambit has lower base mod cost. That makes it better than Pistol Gambit at every stages(obviously, neglecting Endo requirements because legendary) and does not make it too OP at max rank as well.

Primed PP however is worse in every single way possible upto Rank 7. If DE just reduced the base cost to 2, it would have been better than PP at every point, just like Primed Pistol Gambit.

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

And no, don't say it is like that because it can go to 10 ranks and is better starting at 8. Just don't repeat that argument. I have already said that other primed mods offer equal or better stats at every single rank.

I said it above but this post has horrific formatting so I'll repeat it; Primed PP is an incredibly powerful mod once it gets above normal PP's damage boost, once you have got it above the rank where it is worse than PP then it is more important to make space for it in your build than it is to worry about its power cost. This doesn't happen as much with other primed mods, but even with other mods people are willing to apply forma in order to fit max-ranked Primed mods into their builds, because they provide an unparalleled stat boost.

As for comparing it to OTHER Primed mods, then you are very clearly comparing apples to oranges. Judge each Primed mod by what IT can do, not how good it is compared to something else that does something completely different.

I obviously don't want to repeat my argument, but that's the truth. Primed mods are better because they give higher boosts, as long as you make space for them. If you own two cars, one that goes faster than the other, and costs aren't an issue (because you are willing to deal with any costs to get the best item available, see above argument) then both cars are the same until the faster one starts going faster than the other. THEN it becomes the better car. 

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

There is absolutely no justification or logic behind Primed PP. The only explanation is "Because DE decided..."

Well, yeah, DE decides on everything in the game. That's how game development works.

[DEADSHOT456]

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Ok no there's no official source,

Good. Then stop arguing on speculations and self-made rules and logic. Since it is nowhere written that Primed Mods should be good only at MAX ranks(and which is also not true for every other Primed mod), it is perfectly fine if someone decides to rank up his/her Primed PP up to R6 or R7 and they should be rewarded with appropriate bonus(either more damage or less mod point cost like Primed pistol gambit) for ranking up the mod.

I can clearly see that you either do not understand my point or you are just ignoring it. So, I will stop after this reply -

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Primed PP is an incredibly powerful mod once it gets above normal PP's damage boost, once you have got it above the rank where it is worse than PP then it is more important to make space for it in your build than it is to worry about its power cost. This doesn't happen as much with other primed mods, but even with other mods people are willing to apply forma in order to fit max-ranked Primed mods into their builds, because they provide an unparalleled stat boost.

I am not talking about -

• Primed PP is powerful once it surpasses PP. That's obvious and I am not stupid.
• I am not talking about using Forma or not. I do not know why you keep mentioning the fact that we need to forma. We need to forma even without Primed PP.

What I am talking about is -

• A R7 Legendary mod is worse than a R5 Normal mod. That is not ok. Argue all you want, but when 7 ranks of a legendary mod can not equal the benefit of 5 ranks of normal mod, there is a problem. I don't care if the maxed legendary mod beats the normal mod, it is obvious. What I do care about is that the choice to rank up the legendary mod up to R6 or R7 exists, but do not offer any benefit, rather, is worse than the R5 normal mod.
• For achieving the same bonus, a legendary mod costs more mod points than a normal mod. (Obviously neglecting the Endo here).

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

As for comparing it to OTHER Primed mods, then you are very clearly comparing apples to oranges. Judge each Primed mod by what IT can do, not how good it is compared to something else that does something completely different.

Not at all. I am not judging the Primed mods on the basis of what they can do. I am merely comparing the pattern they follow. The effect that the Primed mods have does not matter in such a scenario, since if that was the case, then Primed Pistol Gambit and Primed Target Cracker would be the ones that would have been nerfed heavily since they provide bonuses Primed PP can't even think of.

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

That's how game development works.

Not exactly. While it is true that it is the devs decide things about a game, it does not mean the game should be riddled with inconsistencies in data with making any sense whatsoever, which is exactly the case in Warframe.

Even the most recent update shows a huge inconsistency -

Vaykor Hek can not use the Syndicate mod for Hek, yet, Rakta Dark Dagger can use the syndicate mod for Dark Dagger. Logic?

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

I'm gonna be honest I haven't taken a good look at the dps output of every single weapon in the game, but what i can see is that a lot of the "best" guns in the game as determined by meta are primaries. (soma prime, boltor prime, tigris(and prime), tonkor) Yes there are "meta" secondaries and melee weapons, but when someone says "this is easy I can destroy everything in sight with my-"they almost always follow up with a primary. And that's the situation that they are CURRENTLY in, even with pistols having a superior damage mod and higher multishot potential. Anyway, this isn't the point, this argument is about melee weapons, the reason as to why Hornet Strike is a higher boost doesn't matter here.

As for this part - I am sorry to say this, but you have absolutely ZERO idea about what you are saying. I am going to leave out Tonkor(Grenade launcher) and Tigris(Shotgun) since I was talking about Rifles.

Now let's take Soma Prime and Boltor Prime, that you have mentioned and those are indeed top-tier 'rifles'.

• I have used a build with which I could get the highest DPS. Feel free to add/remove mods to make the DPS higher.

1. Boltor Prime - Sustained DPS = 13.5k and Burst DPS = 23.7k.
2. Soma Prime - Sustained DPS = 17.5k and Burst DPS = 22.7k.

• Now Secondary -

1.  Akstiletto Prime - Sustained DPS = 29.5k and Burst DPS = 38.7k.
2.  Brakk - Sustained DPS = 43.7k and Burst DPS = 113.8k(Yep, it is indeed 100k+)
3.  Lex Prime - Sustained DPS = 33.7k and Burst DPS = 66.2k.
4. Mara Detron - Sustained DPS = 19.6k and Burst DPS = 36.2k.
5. Twin Grakata - Sustained DPS = 16.2k and Burst DPS = 42k.
6. Vaykor Marelok - Sustained DPS = 29.5k and Burst DPS = 45.6k.

 

But actual DPS values aside, it doesn't take a genius to understand the simple fact that it something has more damage than a Boltor Prime and its mods also give much more damage compared to rifle mods, the DPS will be higher.

Edited September 16, 2016 by DEADSHOT456
Fixed Typos

[Inarticulate]

8 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Is there any official source to what you claim? I have never heard any of the Devs say "Primed mods are supposed to be better only AT MAX RANK". Stop creating your own logic.

Not a single Primed mod is worse than it's normal counterpart at any given rank, except Primed PP. It is either equal to the normal counterpart(like almost every Primed mod) or better(like Primed Pistol Gambit as I mentioned my first post in this thread).

I have also never heard any of the devs say, "Primed mods are supposed to be the same as or better than their normal counterparts at the same rank".

Primed Pistol Gambit, by the way, is worse than its normal counterpart at equal rank. Mod capacity drain and rank are not the same thing.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Inarticulate

[DEADSHOT456]

41 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

I have also never heard any of the devs say, "Primed mods are supposed to be the same as or better than their normal counterparts at the same rank".

You do not need to hear that. Every single primed mod except Primed PP follows that trend.

Also, what does your common sense say? Should a legendary item be worse than a common item?

Warframe would be the first game to implement such a logic. In every other game I have played, legendary items are the most powerful items.

And -

41 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

Primed Pistol Gambit, by the way, is worse than its normal counterpart at equal rank. Mod capacity drain and rank are not the same thing.

Not exactly. It is you who is confused.

Here is the explanation -

• In case, you are a busy person - tl:dr - Primed Pistol Gambit gives less crit at the same rank as Pistol Gambit, but it also costs less mod points at that rank, therefore the less crit chance is justified. For example, at rank 5 (and not mod drain 5), Primed Pistol Gambit gives 102% crit, but costs 7 mod points(drain). At the same rank of 5, Pistol Gambit gives 120% crit, but costs 9 mods points(drain). So, 102% crit and 7 mod capacity drain VS 120% and 9 mod capacity drain, at Rank 5. So, the less crit is justified.

 

13 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Yes, but in case you missed it, Primed Pistol Gambit costs less mod points for the same rank of Pistol Gambit.

So, if you have a Rank 5 Primed Pistol Gambit and a Rank 5 Pistol Gambit, Primed Pistol Gambit will give less crit chance, but will also cost less mod points. At rank 5, Pistol Gambit gives 120% crit and costs 9 mod points, while Prime Pistol Gambit gives 102% crit but costs 7 mod points.

As a matter of fact, for same mod point cost, lets say, 7 mod points, Primed PG will be better than PG, Primed PG giving 102% crit for 7 mod points while PG giving 80% crit for 7 mod points.

Primed Pistol Gambit is therefore, always better than Pistol Gambit when we consider equal mod point drain.

This is not the case for Prime Pressure Point and Pressure Point.

It is amusing that Primed PP is always worse than PP till Rank 7. And the fun does not stop there. At rank 7, Primed PP gives 120% damage and costs 11 mod points, while PP at Rank 5 gives 120% damage and costs 9 mod points.

So, yes, Primed PP does screw players if they can not afford to go to at least Rank 8.

I contacted Rebecca when Primed PP was released and she said that it is working as intended. So, yeah, we are stuck with the anomaly.

What I do not understand though is that why was it necessary to give Primed PP less damage per rank. If they were so concerned about melee being OP, why did they release Prime PP in the first place and decided to release a gimped version.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[Inarticulate]

44 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

You do not need to hear that. Every single primed mod except Primed PP follows that trend.

Every prime mod except Primed Pistol Gambit and Primed Pressure Point, you mean.

A pattern ceases to be a pattern when you need to make exceptions to it to validate the existence of the pattern.

[Deshiel]

You keep defending the deed but hear this.

If I want to have my Primed Pressure point on the same level of usefulness as maxed regular point blank. 120% I must sacrifice not 1 but 2 more modding points!

If I actualy want to move further and beat the regular Pressure point I have to pay crazy amount of Endo, sacrifice not 2 but  3 more modding points and if I want to go further I have to sacrifice a ton of many more moding points for just 30% percents in damage. Primed Pressure point is an unhealthy Moding cost sink hole that will break your build. 

It's so bad that you have to do a lot of forming and pay a small fortune in creds and Endo to get that +30% surpassion to make a difference from regular PP and keep space for other important mods.

So yeah. Primed Pressure point is not worth building a build around. Mixing regulap pressure point and spoiled strike is the way to go without burning your mod points with barely two three mods installed.

[DEADSHOT456]

58 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

Every prime mod except Primed Pistol Gambit and Primed Pressure Point, you mean.

A pattern ceases to be a pattern when you need to make exceptions to it to validate the existence of the pattern.

You did not read my previous post, did you?

Reading does wonders. Try it sometimes.

[Azrael]

PPP at max rank gives a significant boost over regular PP, at the cost of 4 mod points and a lot of credits and endo. So... what's the problem? Primed mods are luxury items that cost an unreasonable amount of money and resources. This is nothing new. PPP is slightly more "luxurious" than other primed mods, but then it also goes on a weapon category that is more overpowered than other weapon categories. If the drain bothers you, don't use it! It's meant for veteran players with plenty of credits, endo, time, and forma, just like every other primed mod. It's okay with me if new powercreep primed mods are a little bit... primer. Melee didn't need PPP anyway, it was already too strong.

[Inarticulate]

2 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

You did not read my previous post, did you?

Reading does wonders. Try it sometimes.

I assume you're referring to this post here:

10 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Not a single Primed mod is worse than it's normal counterpart at any given rank, except Primed PP. It is either equal to the normal counterpart(like almost every Primed mod) or better(like Primed Pistol Gambit as I mentioned my first post in this thread).

Primed PP is the only primed mod that is worse than the normal PP upto as high as Rank 7.

1. Primed Pistol Gambit is worse than Pistol Gambit at equivalent rank, not better.
2. Based on your previous posts, you're basing your argument of "better" solely by the fact that Primed Pistol Gambit costs 2 fewer mod capacity drain at the same rank which is not the stat that is actually important. It is currently physically possible to fit any combination of mods on any weapon, and a difference of 2 mod capacity is entirely negligible.
3. Primed Pistol Gambit at rank 6 is worse than Pistol Gambit at max rank.
4. Picking rank 7 as an arbitrary cutoff point to exclude Primed Pistol Gambit is cherry-picking. There is no significance to "rank 7" compared to "rank 6" or "rank 8" other than the fact that Primed Pressure Point at rank 7 is worse than Pressure Point at rank 5 and Primed Pistol Gambit at rank 7 is not worse than Pistol Gambit at rank 5.

Finally the entire point of balancing mods is to balance their effects at max rank, not to balance their effects at intermediate ranks, because max rank is (1) attainable and (2) the most extreme possible value. There is no reason to compare a Primed mod that is not fully ranked to its normal counterpart. You don't compare a luxury car mostly assembled on the assembly line to a family car that's already on the lot.

[Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

Finally the entire point of balancing mods is to balance their effects at max rank, not to balance their effects at intermediate ranks,

This. With the exception of corrupted mods (and sometimes lifestrike), nobody really cares how a mod performs at intermediate ranks. The point is that you get 165% instead of 120%.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

Primed Pistol Gambit is worse than Pistol Gambit at equivalent rank, not better.

How?

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

Based on your previous posts, you're basing your argument of "better" solely by the fact that Primed Pistol Gambit costs 2 fewer mod capacity drain at the same rank which is not the stat that is actually important. It is currently physically possible to fit any combination of mods on any weapon, and a difference of 2 mod capacity is entirely negligible.

No, it is not negligible.

Also, if it is negligible, why does DE not do the same to Primed PP? Just reduce base cost to 2 instead of 4. I actually suggested this to Rebecca and she said that it is not going to happen.

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

Primed Pistol Gambit at rank 6 is worse than Pistol Gambit at max rank.

And still it costs less. 1 mod point is much more valuable than 1% chance. I hope you know that. Because in a situation where I am unable to fit another mod due to the lack of 1 mod point, I will gladly use a Rank 6 Primed Pistol Gambit instead of maxed Pistol Gambit to be able to fit that last mod instead of using forma for that lack of 1 mod point.

Also, saying Rank 6 Primed PG is worse than Rank 5 PG is equivalent to saying Rank 1 Primed PG is worse than maxed PG.

To compare, you need a constant constraint. You either -

• compare the mods at same rank
• or compare them at same mod point drain
• or compare them at same stat value.

Since the 3rd option is not possible in case of Primed PG and PG, therefore I compared on the first two aspects.

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

Picking rank 7 as an arbitrary cutoff point to exclude Primed Pistol Gambit is cherry-picking.

You are one one cherry-picking.

 

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

There is no significance to "rank 7" compared to "rank 6" or "rank 8" other than the fact that Primed Pressure Point at rank 7 is worse than Pressure Point at rank 5 and Primed Pistol Gambit at rank 7 is not worse than Pistol Gambit at rank 5.

There is significance of comparing R7 Primed Pistol Gambit to R5 Pistol Gambit. Do I need to teach you he basics of comparison now?

Ok, I will do it.

As said earlier, the reason why Rank 7 of PPG and Rank 5 of PG were compared was because they both cost 9 mod points(drain).

Similarly, you can compare Rank 6 of PPG to Rank 4 of PG, since they cost the same mod drain(8 in this case).

To compare 2 things properly, there should always be a constant constraint between them, as said earlier.

You picking Rank 6 of PPG and Rank 5 of PG does not make sense at all, because every stat is different for the two.

If it is ok to do the comparison with every stat being different, then what is stopping you from comparing Rank 1 of PPG to Rank 5 of PG?

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

Finally the entire point of balancing mods is to balance their effects at max rank, not to balance their effects at intermediate ranks, because max rank is (1) attainable and (2) the most extreme possible value. There is no reason to compare a Primed mod that is not fully ranked to its normal counterpart.

 

57 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

This. With the exception of corrupted mods (and sometimes lifestrike), nobody really cares how a mod performs at intermediate ranks. The point is that you get 165% instead of 120%.

There is a reason to have mods at intermediate positions.

I do not forma every secondary in the game. Similarly, I do not forma every single melee in the game. Mods at intermediate positions are helpful in such cases.

"You should MAX it" is not a valid argument at all. If the choice to keep a mod at intermediate position exists, you can not force me to just forget about that and agree to everything DE does.

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

You don't compare a luxury car mostly assembled on the assembly line to a family car that's already on the lot.

Totally irrelevant.

Edited September 16, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[Azrael]

27 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

There is a reason to have mods at intermediate positions.

I do not forma every secondary in the game.

So you're going to keep your PPP and PPG at an intermediate rank just to put it on weapons without forma? These are primed mods we are talking about here. Unnecessary luxury mods that cost WAY more but provide more benefit. Arguing that you should be able to slot them without forma totally misses the point of even having them. Primed mods are a way to allow vets to spend massive resources to slightly improve their gear. Complaining about the resources required is missing the point.

 

30 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

If the choice to keep a mod at intermediate position exists, you can not force me to just forget about that and agree to everything DE does.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything, not even to use the mod at all. You can still use PP! But the mod should be balanced around it's stats at max rank, since that is where the potential op-ness comes in. Having +220% damage for melee would have been ridiculous. Having +165% damage for melee is already ridiculous and op, and so of course people are complaining because it's too expensive to slot that op luxury primed mod that costs 2 million credits to max on your weapon with 0 forma.

C'mon, man, what do you expect? Do you want DE to just buff regular PP? Because it sounds like that's what you're asking for.