Ogris - Facts

[seth]

I wrote this as a inside to Ogris for all those players saying things like: nerf it, it's OP, it's stupid...

 

 

About ogris:

 

1. If you don't have it, you didn't use it - don't review / critique it.

2. Ogris requires mastery rank 6 which needs significant time and resources investment.

3. Ogris is dojo weapon which means it needs to be researched, total of 9 days is required to get blueprint (provided that dojo and research facilities have been constructed), not to mention required resources:

 

-- Detonate injector: (3 days)

• 500,000 Credits
• 500 Detonite Ampule
• 20,000 Ferrite
• 25,000 Polymer Bundle
• 10,000 Plastids

-- Ignis: (3 days)

• 500,000 Credits
• 1,000 Detonite Ampule
• 40,000 Ferrite
• 50,000 Polymer Bundle
• 15,000 Plastids

-- Ogris: (3 days)

• 750,000 Credits
• 1,000 Detonite Ampule
• 50,000 Ferrite
• 30,000 Polymer Bundle
• 15,000 Plastids

4. After acquiring BP, in order to build ogris you will need: (1 day)

• 5 Detonate Injectors
• 5,000 Salvage
• 600 Alloy Plate
• 1 Forma
• 30,000 Credits

5. These 5 Detonate Injectors, each requires resources and 12h to build, and they can't be built at the same time.

6. Now, after ALL OF THIS you are a proud owner of unranked ogris.

7. Your unranked ogris has no polarity slots, fires extremely slowly, your rockets can be blown in your face and in CQC it still can kill you...

8. You potatoed, leveled, forma and have leveled it again, OMG this is OP weapon blah blah blah...

Details:

• now even edge (deals least) of splash damage can kill you.
• your friends, noobs, and other players with their sentinels will cause to kill your self.
• in CQC (defense missions pod area, and closed areas) you will kill your self.
• weapon still has charge time before it fires.
• if fired before charge it will jam.
• rockets don't home in, that means you will have to take distance and speed (of tgt and rocket) in order to hit enemy.
• acrobatics will interrupt charged Ogris - you will need to charge it again.
• rocket can still be blown in your face - killing you.
• sometimes damage is extremely high (2000 dmg = kill) and sometimes low (40-70 dmg = hp stays the same) and this is noticeable on Xini, ancient infested lvl 50+, maybe bug I don't know.
• if napalim grineer and you (proud owner of Ogris) fire at each other in a straight line, your rockets will never come close to grineer.
• Pluto boss Ambulas can attract you while firing rocket - killing your self.
• using Trinitys Link will not make you immune as your ogris now deals, lets say 2000 dmg, and enemy that you are linked to has say we 1000hp, so there is total of 1000 dmg to you - you will kill your self.
• using Rhino Iron skin will not make you immune - you will kill your self.
• using any non heavy frame extremely increases chance of killing your self.
• on other side it has 540 ammo, and deals high dmg.
• this is already enough so  lets just say.... OTHER STUFF.

9.For those saying it's a KS weapon. How can some one KS in a co-op game where all things are equally shared? This is stupid claim. Las night i went to Xini, some one played Saryn and that player used miasma all the time, point is, he/she soloed up to wave 30, at end Sayrin had like 800 kills and other 3 of us like 80 each, not one of us *@##$ed about that, we got a free ride (mods, resources) and Saryin did all the work :D

 

10. I have ogris, it's potatoed and I used 1 forma, and to clear one more thing - I don't use platinum.

Ogris is not OP weapon because it's sort of weapon that has balance between extremes, and it asks of you (the player) to hold that fragile balance - that makes it unique compared to all other weapons, and causes most of confusion between players who don't see that fact. It is a weapon that requires immense planing and tactics in CQC, your each mistake will result in death or severe injury, but each good decision will reward you. What a joy to go trough missions not killing your self, it's a special mini game within a game. And if you do end up killing your self, there will be some one who will revive you, a player who will find use to his trinity because of you, no matter the kill count, because this is a co-op experience and all benefit from it.

 

 

English is my 4th language, sorry for mistakes.

 

[LeoLeonardoIII]

+1 to this post :3

I have an Ogris as well, potatoed and working on leveling it again (forma'd), the fact that you can veeeery easily kill yourself is a huge means of balance, regardless of how powerful it is :P in fact both rise equally. Doesn't help that the rockets like blowing up before they even reach the target even if the target has no ranged attack, nor is attacking you.. must be a bug. They like to explode juuust before they get close enough to deal splash damage to infesteds, in mid-air even, leaving them unharmed, which bugs me.. and because of the premature detonation, which is hard to predict too, I ended up killing myself even when I would've otherwise been fine :P

My poor Ash has gotten killed by his own rockets so many times x3

[Khranitel]

QFT.

Also you forgot to stress the need of farm those 5 Control Modules and 1250 Plastids to craft those 5 goddamit Injectors. Feel the pain, Tenno.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Khranitel

[Tulzscha]

Great post!

 

Took me a while to get the hang of the "safe" blast radius myself. I also have it formaed once for a V slot (Split Chamber).

 

Other factoids I didn't see in the OP:

 

-J3-Golem also has a pull ability which can make you kill yourself 

-elemental mods on the Ogris can also affect you if you're in the blast radius e.g. freeze/slow from Cryo Rounds

[X3Evanescence]

The problem is people do not read this sticky thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53259-dont-even-nerf-thread-till-you-own-it-please-give-it-a-read/

 

Before even asking for any nerf, any QQ about KSing and stuff, one must read this thread. DO NOT ASK FOR NERF UNTIL YOU OWN IT. Apparently some people are unable to understand this and run about claiming that this is OP thats is OP bla bla bla...

 

I agree with your post. If Ogris is nerfed in any way whatsoever, all the effort, all the time, and all the resources used in finally creating this magnificent weapon will be in vain.

[Dat_Ash]

people will always complain if someone is using better toys than they have and nothing will change that

and some people are always complaining about not getting a high kill score in a  " PVE " game which is pretty funny and stupid

 

some people just take this game too seriously and will play anything that they think is too " OP " for them so that they can reach a high " KILL SCORE " at the end of the game,

then they will complain if someone is outplaying them or using a much better weapon at killing enemies than them -_-

 

P.S: i always use Ash and i Formaed my Furax up to 4 star and i used it always to kill cause its funny and fun, but i still dont understand why some people always takes the killing score at this pve game too seriously -_-

Edited June 27, 2013 by Dat_Ash

[X3Evanescence]

people will always complain if someone is using better toys than they have and nothing will change that

and some people are always complaining about not getting a high kill score in a  " PVE " game which is pretty funny and stupid

 

some people just take this game too seriously and will play anything that they think is too " OP " for them so that they can reach a high " KILL SCORE " at the end of the game, ki

then they will complain if someone is outplaying them or using a much better weapon at killing enemies than them -_-

 

P.S: i always use Ash and i Formaed my Furax up to 4 star and i used it always to kill cause its funny and fun, but i still dont understand why some people always takes the killing score at this pve game too seriously -_-

 

You know? Ego, it is the egoistic people who only desire who have that split-second moment of superiority when they are scoring the most kills. Their perspective of this whole kill-count thing is that whoever kills the most takes the MVP. But who cares about that? This is a co-op game. I find it rather....... Childish. But no offence on that, it is just my sole opinion and I do not mean any hostility by saying that.

[Vabla]

Personally, the suicide part is one of the things I love about Ogris because it forces you to plan (also makes you treat your team mates like a bigger threat than the enemy). It's probably the only weapon with which you can't just faceplant the enemy and tap the trigger a few times.

[X3Evanescence]

Which is why it is a situational weapon which requires precise calculation and awareness of their surroundings to use.

[Phoenix86]

nice post, hope it will serve its purpose

[happyfunba11]

1. This is not even about the ogris. This is you wishing to make an appeal to experience that the rest of your post contradicts due to its childish tone and ignorance of anything that might refute your premise.

 

2-7. These are all the same. It takes time to get. Shocking revelation. I'm not even going to bother trying to make you understand my opinion, which is that weapons should not be better simply because they take longer to get.

 

8. If you replaced everything here with "You can kill yourself with it," you would make the same point. If you wanted to make a thread called "Ways to kill yourself with an Ogris," this would be a good list to start with. That thread would not have annoyed me at all.

 

9 - 10. These are not relevant to anything.

 

Then you have a conclusion where you actually make a semi-decent point. Why didn't you just say this?

[Sideway]

Nice post OP, I agree with you.

 

Only casuals, lows, noobs and jelly people without Ogris complain about it. The moment you shoot for the first time with your freshly baked Ogris... you understand... one mistake and you will die. This weapon is high reward-high punishment type of weapon. One of the most fun to use. Nearly useless on "flat" maps without higher spots. It's not overpowered by any means... it's just very different.

 

It's almost perfect as it is. Only Ammo system needs some work.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Sideway

[Draxxon]

1. This is not even about the ogris. This is you wishing to make an appeal to experience that the rest of your post contradicts due to its childish tone and ignorance of anything that might refute your premise.

 

2-7. These are all the same. It takes time to get. Shocking revelation. I'm not even going to bother trying to make you understand my opinion, which is that weapons should not be better simply because they take longer to get.

 

8. If you replaced everything here with "You can kill yourself with it," you would make the same point. If you wanted to make a thread called "Ways to kill yourself with an Ogris," this would be a good list to start with. That thread would not have annoyed me at all.

 

9 - 10. These are not relevant to anything.

 

Then you have a conclusion where you actually make a semi-decent point. Why didn't you just say this?

If I've learned one thing, it's that most people need almost everything spelled out for them, exactly as he posted. I understand exactly why he made the post the way he did. If people still don't get his point after all that, then it's their fault and not his.

Also I think he made quite a good point and you calling out his reasoning without you explaining yours just makes you look like a hypercritical elitist. If you don't have a reasoning to counter his, then why bother? It's like going up to a bunch of people who like a drink, and saying "You shouldn't like that because I say so.", and then leaving.

[7.T.]

    Generally speaking (not really a reply to any above posts) I do think some people often mistake a high level+modded weapon for OP and need to do at least a little research before complaining or asking for nerfs

[Volt_Cruelerz]

1. I do own it.

 

2. I'm rank 7

 

3. I'm in a clan that was about 200 at the time of U8, so we got it pretty quickly.  I contributed a lot of detonite ampules to the Ogris specifically.

 

4. I'm a Hunter, so I have plenty of Platinum to buy Formas

 

5. The only problem here was just accumulating all the Control Modules.

 

6. Well, I was at the time, yes.

 

7. All true, you have just listed the many of the downsides of the weapon

 

8. I haven't Forma'd mine yet since I'm trying to rank up my Supra and I want to forma my Dera first.  You've re-listed some of your above points.  I think the explosion must be doing raycasting or something because perhaps it sometimes hits weakpoints?  Idk.  I haven't formally tested this, but I am aware of the extreme unreliability you're talking about.

 

9.  I've been in a game like that where I was the Saryn and someone else had an Ogris.  At the end of either wave 10 or 15 when we got a T3 void key as a reward, he had about 30% more kills than me.  I was running around with a maxed Dera (better than the Braton by quite a bit against infested) and killing things in two maybe three shots. or just hitting [4] if there was a cluster of them as I had max Flow and Streamline.  The Ogris user just sat back and rocket sniped all day.  Let's just say my results were different from yours.  

 

Also, about KS'ing, it sounds like you're using the "stop complaining about balance in a PVE game" or rather a variant of it.  KS'ing can make the game unfun.  The best example is the original Overload on Volt.  It was stupidly powerful and wiped out everything from rooms away.  Also, if one person hogs the kills, the affinity only goes towards whatever they used to get kills IIRC which I believe is what ticks a lot of people off.  That and that they actually like contributing to playing and seeing someone do so much better than them is likely upsetting.

 

10.  I see your point, but let me explain my position.

 

Pros:

-Absolutely stupendous damage that scales with mods

-Large AoE

 

Cons:

-Can kill yourself

-Positioning is critical

-Weapon can jam (I'm assuming this to be a bug)

-Weapon ready light is blinding

-Weapon damage can be unreliable

 

In your argument, you seem to include all those cons in your reasoning as to why it doesn't need a nerf.  Try stripping away the last three cons as they'll likely be changed with polish and bug fixes.  Now you're left with a gun that does stupidly high damage to an AoE that can kill yourself.  I'm a developer for a game in which almost all weapons are explosive weapons that can you can blow yourself up with if you aren't careful, so forgive me for not being intimidated by the idea of blowing myself up.  Now, I haven't yet gotten used to exactly how large the radius on the thing is, but I'm sure I will when I have more time to play with it and when that happens, the frequency at which I kill myself will drop considerably.  

 

Also, I've never blown myself up due to an ally that's walked in front of me because I've only used this thing in solo (with an unranked Vauban, lol that was a very bad idea) and on Xini.  Why haven't I on Xini?  Because I find a perch and bombard from it, just as the guy did in the aforementioned game where I was the Saryn.

 

Look, I'm not looking to make the Ogris underpowered.  I'm looking to make it a good weapon to use which is why I'd personally propose the following changes.

 

1. Ogris glow is removed and replaced by the reticle filling as it charges

2. A laser pointer is added to it to notify allies when it is charged so they can get out of the way.

3. Get rid of the jamming issue

4. Fix the reliability of the damage

5. Change Ogris to Sniper ammo and rename sniper ammo to something else.

5. Nerf the damage.

 

1-4 are all quality of life changes.  I'm trying to improve the experience with the Ogris, not ruin it.  I hope you realize this.  With all of those changes which to be honest, I see either them or some alternatives happening, the Ogris's true power will shine through more and it'll need a nerf.  Right now in its current state, I would say don't nerf it, but as it gets the quality of life upgrades that it needs, it'll eventually need it.  I don't know how much to nerf it, but 1-4 need to happen first so we can get a better idea as to what the true unencumbered power of the thing is.  I seriously expect it will need it though.

 

 

Also, my hat goes off to you for being quite good with a fourth language good sir.

 

 

Anyways, I hope throughout all this I didn't come across as condescending or anything.  I agree that it doesn't need a nerf at the moment, but that's only because it has some issues that need to get fixed first.  Fix the bugs then fix the balance.  I feel very strongly that once the quality of life improvements are added, the Ogris will need a nerf.  As before, how much, I am uncertain.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Namacyst]

Don't forget to change Ogris ammunition to sniper so using it requires (more) skill because if you shoot like a retart you run out of ammo fast... and of course carrying over a hundret rockets makes no sense.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Don't forget to change Ogris ammunition to sniper so using it requires (more) skill because if you shoot like a retart you run out of ammo fast... and of course carrying over a hundret rockets makes no sense.

Ah, yes, forgot about that lol.  Will change previous post.

[LazyKnight]

To fire a gun that has a charge time of 1.5 seconds and a with a reload time 2s. That's 810 seconds just to shot 540 rounds without factoring reloading adding reloading is 214 more seconds of reload time. People that argue against having its ammo changed really have no ground to stand on, no gun should take 1024 seconds to empty it stock. Its even more time than this because of the delay interval after shooting.

 

Personally I hate the weapon, hate being in parties with the weapon can't stand it from any point of view. Its the ultimate noob cannon people in Cod dream of.

Edited June 27, 2013 by LazyKnight

[ValhaHazred]

I like the thing, but the ammo situation is silly to me. In what universe does a grenade launcher using AR ammo make sense? Change that and fix it's bugs and it will still be the most powerful weapon currently in the game.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

which is that weapons should not be better simply because they take longer to get.

Why not? Why shouldn't a weapon that takes 50x the resources and time to acquire be better? This logic makes no sense to me.

To fire a gun that has a charge time of 1.5 seconds and a with a reload time 2s. That's 810 seconds just to shot 540 rounds without factoring reloading adding reloading is 214 more seconds of reload time. People that argue against having its ammo changed really have no ground to stand on, no gun should take 1024 seconds to empty it stock. Its even more time than this because of the delay interval after shooting.

What's wrong with a gun that takes 1024 seconds to empty its stock? I mean, leaving aside that how often you shoot is going to be dictated by enemies in view, what is the actual problem with the concept?

Personally I hate the weapon, hate being in parties with the weapon can't stand it from any point of view. Its the ultimate noob cannon people in Cod dream of.

I've never seen a noob cannon that blows yourself up if you misjudge it.

5. Nerf the damage.

No. Currently the Ogris oftentimes won't kill wave 10 xini chargers unless you catch them with maximum splash damage. Nerfing the damage would make the weapon suck epically and basically make it worthless, just like the Ignis.

In fact, with an Ogris on Xini, I usually have to leave my sniper perch because Ogris just can't deal with enemies around the pod effectively (by the time it's fired two rockets, the pod will be dead), forcing me to wade in with my Orthos.

Also, if you're a miasma Saryn and you got outkilled by an Ogris user, I don't know what to say. I don't know how that's possible, unless you weren't actually using miasma to its fullest.

[LazyKnight]

What's wrong with a gun that takes 1024 seconds to empty its stock? I mean, leaving aside that how often you shoot is going to be dictated by enemies in view, what is the actual problem with the concept?

They might as well have put the infinity symbol on the remaining ammo. The time it takes to empty is 5 times that of a lex or latron

 

People that spam grenades or rockets in any first person shooter are noobs and having infinite ammo on rockets is what I was referring to.

Edited June 27, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Cpl_Facehugger]

They might as well have put the infinity symbol on the remaining ammo. The time it takes to empty is 5 times that of a lex or latron

I've never had ammo problems with a Lex or Latron either. Might as well put an infinity symbol next to their ammo count too.

 

People that spam grenades or rockets in any first person shooter are noobs and having infinite ammo on rockets is what I was referring to.

Never played Quake or UT then, I take it?

[LazyKnight]

I've never had ammo problems with a Lex or Latron either. Might as well put an infinity symbol next to their ammo count too.

 

Never played Quake or UT then, I take it?

1024 is 17 minutes to empty it. latron is about 200 seconds about a little less for a Lex at 270 second. If you can not grasp the ammo is broken I am not going to continue talking to you about it. Its ammo would be huge in real life or game 540 rounds is a place holder you want your broken weapon I am not going to argue with you because you see it as fine. It is an AOE weapon that has 540 rounds the other two are high efficiency single shot weapons. If you do math it is so far in the lead for most efficient weapon in game bar none.

 

I have played numerous games those are PVP games and for real arguing it takes skill to use a rocket is one of the Dumbest arguments on this earth.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

1024 is 17 minutes to empty it. latron is about 200 seconds about a little less for a Lex at 270 second. If you can not grasp the ammo is broken I am not going to continue talking to you about it. Its ammo would be huge in real life or game 540 rounds is a place holder you want your broken weapon I am not going to argue with you because you see it as fine. It is an AOE weapon that has 540 rounds the other two are high efficiency single shot weapons. If you do math it is so far in the lead for most efficient weapon in game bar none.

 

I have played numerous games those are PVP games and for real arguing it takes skill to use a rocket is one of the Dumbest arguments on this earth.

Actually, I wouldn't be averse to making Ogris use the sniper ammo pool.

Rather, what I'm doing here is implying that your arguments for making that change are terrible. You're taking your premises as a given, and that's a big problem in an argument.

Edit: To elaborate-

You say it's broken but you don't actually explain why. When I point out that I've never run dry on either the Latron Prime or Lex, you vomit forth a rant about how you're not going to continue talking to me because I don't see the obvious difference between three guns that all have such ammo efficiency that you'll never run out in normal play.

As for the skill it takes to use an Ogris... In another thread you've outright said you've never used it, assuming I'm not getting you confused with someone else. On what authority do you claim that the Ogris is easy to use?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[LazyKnight]

Actually, I wouldn't be averse to making Ogris use the sniper ammo pool.

Rather, what I'm doing here is implying that your arguments for making that change are terrible. You're taking your premises as a given, and that's a big problem in an argument.

Your like the 10th or more person that wants it to stay the same I am not re writing walls of text every time. It take no skill at all to use a rockect lean the aoe range stand out side of it. Its clearly such a high skill weapon that you must know not to fire when something is inside the death range....

Edited June 27, 2013 by LazyKnight