De: Please Improve The Dodge Maneuver (Redesign Suggestions In Op)

[Tempera]

Right now you can roll in 4 different directions and replacing that with an ability that reacts the same way all the time takes down the options of what can be done. This is why i suggest this would be better as a new ability.

I, I, I am speechless. I honestly do not know how to reply to this.

 

You are suggesting that a dodge, which does more than just simply dodgeroll, removes more options than a roll? Despite there being no reason to restrict using the dodge to only when you are facing north?

 

I, I mean, congratulations. If an argument was won by making a point so thick that opponents could not reply to it, like in politics, you would have won the argument. I honestly cannot respond to this point, the response is so self-evident.

 

I mean... you think the current roll does not react the same way all the time? Because it does; it activates a roll animation in the direction you are currently facing. That's all it does.

 

This new idea doesn't take away options at all, unless you are insinuating that you could only use the roll in one specific direction for some god-forsaken reason.

 

How about taking away the invulnerability and keeping the stun/dmg?

At that point, it is not even a dodge roll. Rhino's current ability would lose any semblance it has of being "dodge" in favour of being a miniature Rhino Charge, rather than an ability designed to move you a small distance and knock enemies off-balance for long enough for you to reposition yourself.

 

 

They are free, i mentioned this several times.

This is like the jump kick PLUS something else.

The jump kick also does not take a significant amount of stamina to do. It also does significantly more damage than any of the currently suggested abilities have been stated to do, and sword mods can be added to make the attack even more significantly good, which these dodges cannot do.

 

They are only similar on a cursory level. Taking a look at the mechanics of each ability and how they interact with other elements of the game shows just how dissimilar they are.

[MJ12]

You have this issue of it not granting invulnerability as some sort major game breaking mechanic when it not.

This is a run and gun game where moving is what keeping you alive when you are not doing the other stuff that also helps.

 

I have already stated why exactly a dodge requires invulnerability frames to be useful against hitscan rapid-fire weapons as of right now. "Moving is what keeping (sic) you alive" is not a counterargument to that, because I pointed out exactly why this argument is not a reason to keep dodgeroll the way it is.

 

You are getting 2 bonuses totally free with no disadvantages.

Whatever damage or stun length you get doesnt change the fact that you are still getting 2 bonuses for free.

 

Apparently 'time' is not actually 'free' and the disadvantage of 'having an animation that takes up time' is not a disadvantage. And yes, you're getting two bonuses. It's almost as if... that's exactly the point and most people in this thread have realized that's the point, so dodging is as much an offensive move as a purely defensive one for certain Warframes, and for others it combines mobility and defense. Thus you have 'more options' and can use dodging in other ways besides just evading attacks. Isn't that... exactly what you asked for?

 

Warframe is like... art.

It gives you use a palette which you can use to create all sort styles of art.

That's the beauty of this game.

And confining that into set patterns just destroys any freedom the player is given.

 

Oh yeah. Right. Exactly. It should give you a palette which you can use to create "all sort (sic) styles of art". That's "the beauty of this game". And "confining that into set patterns just destroys any freedom the player is given." Why do you want to destroy any freedom the player is given? Isn't that what you're arguing against? Or, in other words, your argument contradicts itself. Nice job!

 

They are free, i mentioned this several times.

This is like the jump kick PLUS something else.

 

You keep insisting that being free makes them broken when they aren't spammable, have minimal effect, and are largely built on concepts which other games have used quite successfully. Maybe if they were ults, or even things like slash dash, you'd have an argument, but they aren't.

 

How about taking away the invulnerability and keeping the stun/dmg?

 

How about no? The invulnerability is important because it lets you use them to escape bad situations when well-timed. The stun/debuff is important because it lets you use them to turn a bad situation into a better one, i.e. it's a less ping-dependent version of the dodge counter or parry counter normally found in games like MGR:R.

[Liminal]

Another reason this kind of moves could be great is that it would give devs more freedom when it comes to enemy attacks. Dodging like this could be the counterplay to new or already existing enemies (eg: Scorpion hooks could always connect unless dodged like this, there could be some sort of grappler enemy that also requires dodging to escape).
 

I think new base mechanics like this could really help with making gameplay deeper.

[Mak_Gohae]

I, I, I am speechless. I honestly do not know how to reply to this.

 

You are suggesting that a dodge, which does more than just simply dodgeroll, removes more options than a roll? Despite there being no reason to restrict using the dodge to only when you are facing north?

 

I, I mean, congratulations. If an argument was won by making a point so thick that opponents could not reply to it, like in politics, you would have won the argument. I honestly cannot respond to this point, the response is so self-evident.

 

I mean... you think the current roll does not react the same way all the time? Because it does; it activates a roll animation in the direction you are currently facing. That's all it does.

 

This new idea doesn't take away options at all, unless you are insinuating that you could only use the roll in one specific direction for some god-forsaken reason.

 

 

Certain moves are very specific in what they do. Loki's requires an enemy within range, Mag requires a wall.

That complete takes away any other uses outside those specific scenarios.

 

At that point, it is not even a dodge roll. Rhino's current ability would lose any semblance it has of being "dodge" in favour of being a miniature Rhino Charge, rather than an ability designed to move you a small distance and knock enemies off-balance for long enough for you to reposition yourself.

 

I guess you found a fault in another.

 

The jump kick also does not take a significant amount of stamina to do. It also does significantly more damage than any of the currently suggested abilities have been stated to do, and sword mods can be added to make the attack even more significantly good, which these dodges cannot do.

 

They are only similar on a cursory level. Taking a look at the mechanics of each ability and how they interact with other elements of the game shows just how dissimilar they are.

 

Jump-kick does basically no damage, man, and Ex's suggested one does the same as a normal melee damage. Huuuuuuge difference.

 

 

I have already stated why exactly a dodge requires invulnerability frames to be useful against hitscan rapid-fire weapons as of right now. "Moving is what keeping (sic) you alive" is not a counterargument to that, because I pointed out exactly why this argument is not a reason to keep dodgeroll the way it is.

 

 

Enemies can "loose lock" on you when you roll now. If you, of course, rolling in an angle where you hardly move away from the spot you starting from the position they are in they, of course, wont loose that lock. Roll stops you from being hit for a few seconds currently. 

 

Apparently 'time' is not actually 'free' and the disadvantage of 'having an animation that takes up time' is not a disadvantage. And yes, you're getting two bonuses. It's almost as if... that's exactly the point and most people in this thread have realized that's the point, so dodging is as much an offensive move as a purely defensive one for certain Warframes, and for others it combines mobility and defense. Thus you have 'more options' and can use dodging in other ways besides just evading attacks. Isn't that... exactly what you asked for?

 

This needs balancing.

If you can make a clean break and you loose nothing this will just become THE move everyone will use and ignore anything else. This will be just like wave-dashing.

 

Oh yeah. Right. Exactly. It should give you a palette which you can use to create "all sort (sic) styles of art". That's "the beauty of this game". And "confining that into set patterns just destroys any freedom the player is given." Why do you want to destroy any freedom the player is given? Isn't that what you're arguing against? Or, in other words, your argument contradicts itself. Nice job!

 

Im destroying a set of moves that can confine certain warframes into only being able to do one thing and nothing else.

Excalibur's dodge move seems to be centered specific against melee attacks so........ what happens when people are shooting at you from range?

You talk about enemy that shoot with hitscan then have a dodge where a warframe counter attacks with a melee attack. How is that helpful against a dude that is shooting at me 20 meters away? Or are you saying that each frame will have the 3 types of rolls? If yes... how are you going to activate each different type of roll? Is it automatic? The game is going to pick what roll it does for me?

 

You keep insisting that being free makes them broken when they aren't spammable, have minimal effect, and are largely built on concepts which other games have used quite successfully. Maybe if they were ults, or even things like slash dash, you'd have an argument, but they aren't.

 

If you have invulnerability and dmg/stun..... there is no need to spam are you are giving enough help to be able to move on with no trouble.

 

How about no? The invulnerability is important because it lets you use them to escape bad situations when well-timed. The stun/debuff is important because it lets you use them to turn a bad situation into a better one, i.e. it's a less ping-dependent version of the dodge counter or parry counter normally found in games like MGR:R.

 

Right there you CLEARLY state that you just want a one-button escape move which is why i'm saying that if you want to keep their current mechanic they should be ..... special moves.

[Kyte]

"One-button escape move" is pretty much the definition of a "dodge key". I fail to see the problem.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Kyte

[MJ12]

"One-button escape move" is pretty much the definition of a "dodge key". I fail to see the problem.

Neither am I. It's almost as if the dodge maneuver is intended to... Escape from bad situations.

How shocking and totally unintended.

[Tempera]

Certain moves are very specific in what they do. Loki's requires an enemy within range, Mag requires a wall.

That complete takes away any other uses outside those specific scenarios.

 

Loki

Evasion Type: Offensive (didn't see that one coming did you?)

Evasion Name: Patsy

Description: Loki teleports the nearest enemy within a small radius to his original position as he teleports away (uses similar rules, save invulnerability, to Ash's dodge). This enemy is momentarily rendered vulnerable to friendly fire, and enemies will still fire on Loki's original position for a fraction of a second after the dodge completes (shooting the patsy instead). Loki is not invulnerable during any of the animation, but enemies will not fire on him after the animation completes. If no enemy is within range, Loki simply teleports. This is a relatively 'slow' dodge to complete. Repeated use of Patsy reduces the interval that the patsy is targeted for.

 

Easy solution: Find a dodge for Mag that doesn't involve a wall. You're just plain wrong about Loki though.

 

 

Excalibur's dodge move seems to be centered specific against melee attacks so........ what happens when people are shooting at you from range?

You talk about enemy that shoot with hitscan then have a dodge where a warframe counter attacks with a melee attack. How is that helpful against a dude that is shooting at me 20 meters away?

A valid point.

 

Let me propose a different dodge for Excalibur then. He dodges the initial attack, then flash steps towards an attacker up to a given distance away (ten metres?) and executes a regular melee attack. If the attacker is in melee range, then Excalibur flash steps behind the enemy and executes a regular melee attack, still allowing you to move and reposition yourself.

 

This still retains Excalibur's theme of mobility and offense, while offering up a dodge attack themed towards the Excalibur warframe. It is useful, it is interesting, and it does exactly what a dodge roll should do (gets you out of your initial position to somewhere else, repositioning you and allowing you to hide/defend yourself better).

 

You see what I am doing? Instead of proposing to scrap the entire system because one or two powers are useless and/or overpowered, I am proposing a change that makes the ability into something more useful, and hopefully not overpowered. If people think this is still not a good dodging ability, they can now proceed to offer up reasons why they think that is so and propose solutions, instead of getting annoyed at people who are flatly saying "No, the dodge system that is clearly broken is fine, now go away".

 

If you have invulnerability and dmg/stun..... there is no need to spam are you are giving enough help to be able to move on with no trouble.

You are gaining invulnerability for a fraction of a second. The damage and stun are also minimal, offering up a slight benefit/tactical advantage; not nearly as useful as a Warframe's ability, however.

 

This needs balancing.

If you can make a clean break and you loose nothing this will just become THE move everyone will use and ignore anything else. This will be just like wave-dashing.

You keep saying you lose nothing, but that is not true.

 

It takes time to execute the dodge move, time which could be spent doing other things (running away, shooting, using abilities, attacking with a melee weapon). You are not invincible through the duration of it; you can still be damaged and stunned. It costs stamina, of which most Warframes have a limited pool, and it takes time to regenerate this pool. This pool is also used for sprinting and other acrobatics, and for making melee attacks, so using a dodge move limits the amount of acrobatics and melee attacks you can do for a certain amount of time afterwards.

 

The moves do not actually kill anyone except perhaps the weakest enemies in the game. An attack may stagger enemies, but stagger does not last for nearly as long as even knockdown, so the benefits are minimal compared to even the ground slam of a heavy weapon such as the Gram; and the abilities that stagger/do damage are constrained to several Warframes, and those Warframes lose defensive benefits because of this.

 

In fact, okay; let's compare something.

 

Ember

The proposed dodge roll for Ember involves burning a husk of herself out, then quickly running in another direction, causing the husk to disappear upon landing. Let us assign it a casting time of, say, 1.5 seconds, in which she is invulnerable only through the original half a second of the animation, and is vulnerable once she reappears.

 

Let us assign it a stamina cost of, I don't know, 20.

 

So, that is:

 

Ember's Dodge Roll

Stamina cost: 20

Effect: Creates a burning husk resembling Ember that lasts for the duration of the ability. Moves Ember 10 metres in the direction Ember is facing.

Additional notes: There are some invulnerability frames when casting. Can be used while jumping/sliding/flipping/wall-running.

 

Now, let us compare this to Ember's abilities.

 

Fireball

Energy cost: 25

Effect: Launches a fireball in a direction, which explodes on contact with a solid object. This fireball deals 75/125/175/225 damage, and burn damage is inflicted each second on enemies who touch the flames, for 35 damage for 3/3/5/7 seconds, for a total of 180-470 damage.

Additional notes: The fireballs can be launched at the ground to spread a radius of flames there that burns enemies who pass through it. Fireball does not interrupt jumping/sliding/flipping/wall-running. Damage will harm enemies within an ~1 metre radius. Fireball can cause headshot damage.

 

Overheat

Energy cost: 50

Effect: Reduces incoming damage to health and shields by 50%/50%/60%/70%. Surrounds Ember in a cloak of flames that does 25/25/50/100 damage a second in a small radius to nearby enemies, for a duration of 5/5/10/13, for a total minimum/maximum of 50% reduction to health and shields damage, and 125 damage, for 5 seconds / 70% reduction to health and shields damage, and 1300 damage, for 13 seconds.

Additional notes: There are some initial invulnerability frames when casting. Can be used while jumping/sliding/flipping/wall-running.

 

Fire Blast

Energy cost: 75

Effect: Initial fire damage of x/x/x/150 to enemies within a radius of x/x/x/15 metres. (The wiki is unclear on if this damage/radius is fixed over all levels.) Enemies caught within a 1-4 metre radius of Ember will receive 100 damage per second for 10 seconds, for a total of 1000 damage.

Additional notes: Can be used while jumping/sliding/flipping/wall-running.

 

World on Fire

Energy cost: 100

Effects: 250/250/300/400 damage to 3 enemies within 4/4/10/18 in-game metres for x/x/5/8 seconds, with 4/4/8/12 damage ticks, for a total minimum/maximum damage of 1000-4800 damage to 3 enemies.

Additional notes: A large number of invulnerability frames throughout the casting time. Targets all types of enemies, including machines and turrets. Can be used while sliding/in the air. Annoys everyone by turning the screen red for the duration of the ability.

 

-

 

So, I ask; what makes you think that the dodge roll is anywhere near the power of a Warframe's actual abilities? Ember's dodge ability, for instance, is far weaker than any of her actual abilities.

[MJ12]

The idea for Excalibur's dodge counter is that it works best at close range. Presumably if nobody was in range for the melee counter, it wouldn't trigger the basic melee attack, making the dodge significantly faster. So it has two modes, a fast evasion-dash if nobody's in range, and a moderately slower one which provides a counterattack if someone is.

 

(Also, lol @ Mak_Gohae calling a basic spammed melee attack better than the jump attack)

 

Similarly, if Mag has no walls in range she could just leap away. Perhaps she'd be magnetized towards the wall up to a certain range and then land from there, regaining full control while in the air (so you could chain dodge into a jump-strike, or start shooting from the air, or whatever).

[Shadowcrusnik]

[Mak_Gohae]

"One-button escape move" is pretty much the definition of a "dodge key". I fail to see the problem.

 

 

Neither am I. It's almost as if the dodge maneuver is intended to... Escape from bad situations.

How shocking and totally unintended.

 

I think most Warframes already have a press-a-button-to-escape-damage ability so adding another specific move like that at no basically no cost needs some balancing.

[Azure_Kytia]

I believe MJ12 mentioned a larger stamina cost somewhere, with a linear cooldown and reduction in invincibility roll per consecutive roll. I'm sure that could be applied to a Warframe's "special" roll abilities too, such as reduced range, damage, extra stamina cost, etc.

 

Being able to dodge or reduce the damage of a bullet or two over the course of two seconds is not going to dramatically break the game, and it does open the possibilities towards other styles of gameplay, such as correctly timed disruptor tentacle dodges. Having warframe specific dodges may be a bit of a stretch goal, but with some tweaking to their original implementation would give warframes more of a personal identity.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[MJ12]

I think most Warframes already have a press-a-button-to-escape-damage ability so adding another specific move like that at no basically no cost needs some balancing.

 

No, they really don't. Not in the way you're thinking.

 

Ultimates deal significant amounts of damage and/or disable enemies for an extended period of time, and cost a lot, i.e. they can't be used to avoid most attacks.

 

Rhino skin is persistent for a significant period of time.

 

Link is also persistent for a significant period of time.

 

Overheat? Same thing.

 

Speed is nice but due to how enemies track you not as useful as it'd seem. Electric shield is mostly useful for the fact that it turns every shot fired through it into an instant hit armor-ignoring death laser. Snowglobe is an area of effect and can be countered by the enemy walking through the globe, or puncture-capable enemies like RG Moas.

 

And then we get into Super Jump/Teleport/Switch Teleport, which are more useful for the fact that they let you skip rooms (and even then their use is debatable) than their usefulness in avoiding damage.

 

Most of the 'press-a-button-to-escape-damage' abilities are significantly stronger than "less than a second of invincibility". The ones which aren't... are considered weak.

[Tempera]

I think most Warframes already have a press-a-button-to-escape-damage ability so adding another specific move like that at no basically no cost needs some balancing.

Several Warframes do; Loki and Saryn, primarily, with Decoy and Moult. For most other Warframes, their ability to escape damage is a secondary effect of their abilities at best.

 

Ember's Overheat, for instance, only reduces incoming damage so that you are able to run around in the open and actually use it to burn enemies. (Of course, this is useless because Overheat does not prevent staggerlock/stunlock; but that's a separate concern.) It is not intended primarily as a damage mitigation ability.

 

And abilities are not something you can justify using as a gameplay function to avoid taking damage, due to their reliance on energy. The developers cannot look at, let's see, Infested Ancients, and think "We can balance their ranged-melee attacks to deal moderate damage and stagger from outside the distance of non-heavy melee weapons, because players can use their abilities to dodge the attack", because the developers cannot rely upon players having enough energy to use those abilities- or even on having those abilities installed.

 

A dodging ability that relies on stamina, however, can be taken into consideration, due to the player always having stamina.

[Mak_Gohae]

Easy solution: Find a dodge for Mag that doesn't involve a wall. You're just plain wrong about Loki though.

 

 

These are the first words to Loki's description

 

Loki teleports the nearest enemy within a small radius to his original position

 

The small radius isnt given but that makes it a very specific scenario where you need a enemy within range or else you have no dodge. So like Excalibur, it doesnt look like it would benefit long range encounters.

 

You see what I am doing? Instead of proposing to scrap the entire system because one or two powers are useless and/or overpowered, I am proposing a change that makes the ability into something more useful, and hopefully not overpowered. If people think this is still not a good dodging ability, they can now proceed to offer up reasons why they think that is so and propose solutions, instead of getting annoyed at people who are flatly saying "No, the dodge system that is clearly broken is fine, now go away".

 

I never said to scrap the whole entire system, i just suggested for it to work a different way.

 

You are gaining invulnerability for a fraction of a second. The damage and stun are also minimal, offering up a slight benefit/tactical advantage; not nearly as useful as a Warframe's ability, however.

 

Every second is valuable, man. Even Smoke Bomb rank 0 which actually last 2 seconds does it's intended job. 

 

You keep saying you lose nothing, but that is not true.

 

It takes time to execute the dodge move, time which could be spent doing other things (running away, shooting, using abilities, attacking with a melee weapon).

 

If you are using a dodging move to dodge it means you were always going to dodge so it doesnt cost you "time" to do something that you were going to do. That time was always going to be used in that method.

 

Seriously, this idea is pretty funny..... let's just stop it.

 

You are not invincible through the duration of it; you can still be damaged and stunned. It costs stamina, of which most Warframes have a limited pool, and it takes time to regenerate this pool. This pool is also used for sprinting and other acrobatics, and for making melee attacks, so using a dodge move limits the amount of acrobatics and melee attacks you can do for a certain amount of time afterwards.

 

The moves do not actually kill anyone except perhaps the weakest enemies in the game. An attack may stagger enemies, but stagger does not last for nearly as long as even knockdown, so the benefits are minimal compared to even the ground slam of a heavy weapon such as the Gram; and the abilities that stagger/do damage are constrained to several Warframes, and those Warframes lose defensive benefits because of this.

 

In fact, okay; let's compare something.

 

So, I ask; what makes you think that the dodge roll is anywhere near the power of a Warframe's actual abilities? Ember's dodge ability, for instance, is far weaker than any of her actual abilities.

 

When does the stamina begin to be regain? After the dodge is activated or when the dodge animation ends? Cause with some attacks the animation seems to be long enough that if stamina begins to be regained after activation you are going to have maybe half of your stamina back by the end of the move.

 

And look if the move is so weak why would anyone use it instead of what we currently have?

Come on, dont try to simply say that because it's just a 2 second stun it's weak because thinking about it in actual practice you can do a lot with those seconds.

[Tempera]

These are the first words to Loki's description

 

Loki teleports the nearest enemy within a small radius to his original position

 

The small radius isnt given but that makes it a very specific scenario where you need a enemy within range or else you have no dodge. So like Excalibur, it doesnt look like it would benefit long range encounters.

 

Loki

Evasion Type: Offensive (didn't see that one coming did you?)

Evasion Name: Patsy

Description: Loki teleports the nearest enemy within a small radius to his original position as he teleports away (uses similar rules, save invulnerability, to Ash's dodge). This enemy is momentarily rendered vulnerable to friendly fire, and enemies will still fire on Loki's original position for a fraction of a second after the dodge completes (shooting the patsy instead). Loki is not invulnerable during any of the animation, but enemies will not fire on him after the animation completes. If no enemy is within range, Loki simply teleports. This is a relatively 'slow' dodge to complete. Repeated use of Patsy reduces the interval that the patsy is targeted for.

 

Perhaps it might help this entire discussion if you would read more than a sentence or two in every paragraph.

[Mak_Gohae]

The idea for Excalibur's dodge counter is that it works best at close range. Presumably if nobody was in range for the melee counter, it wouldn't trigger the basic melee attack, making the dodge significantly faster. So it has two modes, a fast evasion-dash if nobody's in range, and a moderately slower one which provides a counterattack if someone is.

 

So i have to aim the counter attack if im within range, correct?

 

(Also, lol @ Mak_Gohae calling a basic spammed melee attack better than the jump attack)

 

Jump-kick does (basically) no damage, dude. Jump-kick is just a knockdown attack.

Am i wrong? I doesnt count HPs and all that jazz but from what i remember from health bars maybe a pixel moves.

While this is NOT the same with a melee attack from anything.  Maybe the weakest weapon in the game with no mods against an enemy several levels higher but in your description of Ex dodge you CLEARLY state that the damage is a normal melee attack based on the weapon equipped and some weapon in game DEFINITELY do way more damage than a jump-kick.

 

Similarly, if Mag has no walls in range she could just leap away. Perhaps she'd be magnetized towards the wall up to a certain range and then land from there, regaining full control while in the air (so you could chain dodge into a jump-strike, or start shooting from the air, or whatever).

 

So it becomes a normal roll?

 

Mag should Pull herself to a desired location.

 

 

No, they really don't. Not in the way you're thinking.

 

Oh, so you know how i'm thinking? Hmm... let's see.

 

Ultimates deal significant amounts of damage and/or disable enemies for an extended period of time, and cost a lot, i.e. they can't be used to avoid most attacks.

 

Wasnt thinking about ultimates at all.

 

Rhino skin is persistent for a significant period of time.

 

Wasnt thinking of IS but of all this other attacks that knock people down.

 

Link is also persistent for a significant period of time.

 

Overheat? Same thing.

 

I said most. Most does not mean all.

 

Speed is nice but due to how enemies track you not as useful as it'd seem.

 

You can loose enemy lock for a bit with a normal roll..... speed is waaaay faster than that.

Seriously, dude, get a few enemies in front of you shooting at you and start rolling left and right and you will notice that you stop taking damage for a bit.

 

Snowglobe is an area of effect and can be countered by the enemy walking through the globe, or puncture-capable enemies like RG Moas.

 

So the bad thing about snowglobe is that you have to pay attention when things get within close range.

I uh.........i dont understand. The point of the game is to kill enemies... why wouldn't you kill the enemies that are slowed when they coming within the globe?

 

And then we get into Super Jump/Teleport/Switch Teleport, which are more useful for the fact that they let you skip rooms (and even then their use is debatable) than their usefulness in avoiding damage.

 

What? You are throwing some arbitrary reasons why this stuff doesnt work for dodging simply because a move has multiple uses?

The FACT is that those abilities help you evade. Jump is better than Slash and Dash because it's cheaper and it doesn't have the chance at hanging on stuff and Invis...... do i even need to defend that?

 

Most of the 'press-a-button-to-escape-damage' abilities are significantly stronger than "less than a second of invincibility". The ones which aren't... are considered weak.

 

So if less than a second invincibility why do you have a problem with dropping that less than a second?

Since is all weak and such.

[Tempera]

So if less than a second invincibility why do you have a problem with dropping that less than a second?

Since is all weak and such.

Because the point of these abilities is that they are weak, yet allow you to fulfill a specific purpose (escaping from enemies).

 

If you have a problem with a specific ability, then talk about the ability, talk about why you think it's overpowered, and how you think it should be nerfed. Stop talking about dodge rolls on a whole; it's making you look frankly ignorant.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

Perhaps it might help this entire discussion if you would read more than a sentence or two in every paragraph.

 

 

Dude....this will then be a "slow" teleport away which.....is going to be what? Just a normal roll slow?

You are going to the get muidered!

[Tempera]

Jesus christ, make your replies in one post.

[KingTaro]

I do not approve the Rhino's dodge idea!

His dodge should be a super jump (Hulk) that kills everyone in warframe!

 

On a serious note, I think the dodge roll we have now would suit Rhino, but as he performs that roll, he knocks down all the enemies in his path dealing a bit of damage. The dodge covers a slightly longer distance and makes Rhino invincible during the animation.

 

Maybe also adjust the roll animation a bit, so that it feels "heavier".

Adding an impact sound at the end of the roll and making the camera shake a bit.

[SkyllianBlitz]

I do not approve the Rhino's dodge idea!

His dodge should be a super jump (Hulk) that kills everyone in warframe!

 

On a serious note, I think the dodge roll we have now would suit Rhino, but as he performs that roll, he knocks down all the enemies in his path dealing a bit of damage. The dodge covers a slightly longer distance and makes Rhino invincible during the animation.

 

Maybe also adjust the roll animation a bit, so that it feels "heavier".

Adding an impact sound at the end of the roll and making the camera shake a bit.

How about making it so the Rhino plants his feet like with Rhino Charge and sets himself up for the roll. Invulnerability frames start here. He then leaps forward, canceling the invulnerability frames and knocks over enemies in front of him, completing the roll. Repeated use reduces the invulnerability duration and reduces knockdown chance.

[Phoenix86]

@OP: nice ideas and description, even if i'd avoid giving invulnerability to dodge... it will be abused...

[ValhaHazred]

@OP: nice ideas and description, even if i'd avoid giving invulnerability to dodge... it will be abused...

It would be like 5 frames of invincibility. That's about 1/5th of a second. Do people not understand what invulnerability frames are? They are used in most games with dodge moves.

MJ12 also proposed how to avoid abuse, so read the whole post next time.

[MJ12]

Dude....this will then be a "slow" teleport away which.....is going to be what? Just a normal roll slow?

You are going to the get muidered!

 

Where did I say it was slow again? And note that here even 'slow' would mean 'faster than the current dodgeroll' because the current roll is unacceptably slow. You really seem to have a congenital incapability of understanding other people, like when you say things like this:

 

"So if less than a second invincibility why do you have a problem with dropping that less than a second?

Since is all weak and such."

 

Not understanding that the whole point is that it's weak but beneficial and critical to the functionality, which is why the cost is minimal and comes from a pool of relatively quickly-regenerating resources, i.e. Stamina. You're acting like "because it's weak it doesn't need to be there" as if that was a good argument. Somehow, the idea that a weak but cheap maneuver can be balanced is alien to you.

[Mak_Gohae]

Where did I say it was slow again? And note that here even 'slow' would mean 'faster than the current dodgeroll' because the current roll is unacceptably slow. You really seem to have a congenital incapability of understanding other people, like when you say things like this:

 

"So if less than a second invincibility why do you have a problem with dropping that less than a second?

Since is all weak and such."

 

Not understanding that the whole point is that it's weak but beneficial and critical to the functionality, which is why the cost is minimal and comes from a pool of relatively quickly-regenerating resources, i.e. Stamina. You're acting like "because it's weak it doesn't need to be there" as if that was a good argument. Somehow, the idea that a weak but cheap maneuver can be balanced is alien to you.

 

The current roll isn't slow it just has a long animation.

And this new move isnt weak simply because the damage if low and the stun is short.

It can achieve several things at one with no hindrance. At that level it should have a bigger cost or have somethings adjusted.