De: Please Improve The Dodge Maneuver (Redesign Suggestions In Op)

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The current roll isn't slow it just has a long animation.

A long animation in this context is slow.

It can achieve several things at one with no hindrance. At that level it should have a bigger cost or have somethings adjusted.

Jump attack can also achieve several things at once with no hindrance. It knocks down enemies. It costs practically nothing. It has a great radius on heavy weapons. It does damage (lots of it) and applies elemental effects including chilled.

More to the point, the only thing a cost does is prevent spamming the ability. Which MJ's already included viable solutions for in his initial idea.

[MJ12]

The current roll isn't slow it just has a long animation.

And this new move isnt weak simply because the damage if low and the stun is short.

It can achieve several things at one with no hindrance. At that level it should have a bigger cost or have somethings adjusted.

 

Dude, 'a long animation' makes it slow.

 

You keep mindlessly insisting that it isn't weak without providing any proof or argument, simply mindlessly asserting it's not weak because it "achieves several things at once" with "no hindrance" (what, you're saying time and stamina aren't actual resources in the game? You're saying that now there's no other alternative move you might do to evade the attack when just a few posts ago you were claiming that you have "plenty of tools" to do so?)

 

Furthermore, the whole point of having a cost at all is to limit its use. Which progressively degrading invulnerability does. If you use it all the time, as you claim people will, it eventually stops having any invulnerability frames. It's self-balancing. That's the whole point of diminishing returns.

[Mak_Gohae]

Dude, 'a long animation' makes it slow.

 

It's not slow because you travel a significant distance fast enough to loose lock-on by the enemy.

 

You keep mindlessly insisting that it isn't weak without providing any proof or argument, simply mindlessly asserting it's not weak because it "achieves several things at once" with "no hindrance" (what, you're saying time and stamina aren't actual resources in the game? You're saying that now there's no other alternative move you might do to evade the attack when just a few posts ago you were claiming that you have "plenty of tools" to do so?)

 

I mention why i consider this to be over powered several times and i am not going to repeat them again at this point.

BTW, there is no "proof" to throw out because these are just words on a board.... so i provide what i think makes them op based on just those words.

 

BTW, i asked several post ago how does the stamina recharge. Does it recharge right after use or at the end of the move.

 

Furthermore, the whole point of having a cost at all is to limit its use. Which progressively degrading invulnerability does. If you use it all the time, as you claim people will, it eventually stops having any invulnerability frames. It's self-balancing. That's the whole point of diminishing returns.

 

When you successfully achieve a move on the first try..... there is no need to continue to repeat it.

If this is an escape ability that is supposed to give you a bit of a breathing room to do something else and you achieve that with the press of one button all the time.... why would you need to do it again?

[Mak_Gohae]

Jump attack can also achieve several things at once with no hindrance. It knocks down enemies. It costs practically nothing. It has a great radius on heavy weapons. It does damage (lots of it) and applies elemental effects including chilled.

More to the point, the only thing a cost does is prevent spamming the ability. Which MJ's already included viable solutions for in his initial idea.

 

 

You can be knocked out of the air. Heavy weapons are slow so after the knockdown there isnt a massive slaughter since the downed attack takes so long to perform.

What's the disadvantage of this dodge attack?

Anyone want to tell me?

[P1RAT3]

F***ing brilliant Jim. I love this idea, I'm going to reference/link it in my own post about melee. This dodge idea with the melee ideas I had? I think we may have just perfected the game. [ish]. 

 

Implementing these two ideas = almost perfect hack and slash soon

Edited July 2, 2013 by P1RAT3

[KingTaro]

I think reducing the invincibility time based on whether or not the dodge is being spammed, should be replaced by something visual, something we can keep an eye on to know whether or not we're ready for the next effective dodge.

 

For instance, if you perform a dodge while you don't have enough stamina for one full dodge, the stamina meter will start to glow red after you perform that dodge. And it will glow for a while untill it starts refilling.

 

So, in case you spam the dodge like 2-3 times without waiting for the stamina to refill, you'll be left with no stamina for a few sec.

[ValhaHazred]

Since I like to play devil's advocate and Mak_Gohae is handicapping his own side, allow me to offer some down to earth alternatives.

-Invulnerability frames are bad!

- tweak the A.I. so it targets your location 0.1 seconds ago. Dodge rolls and wall launches provide enough of a speed boost the A.I. will miss for a few moments.

- problems with this solution : probably ping dependant. Depending on lag the A.I. might never be able to target properly

Edit: Instead of a targeting delay, maybe changing the size of the player's hitbox to tiny would work. It's not total invulnerability, but it would sure help.

-Too much work for the animators!

- instead of individual moves for each, have three "categories"

-Light warframes get a "flash step"- The Frame accelerates past the speed of sound, moving several meters in the blink of an eye. Effectively a teleport, but does not pass through intervening obstacles. Special effects: leaves a afterimage decoy that lasts about a tenth of a second. Also a sonic boom sound effect.

-Medium waframes get an upgraded two part dodge roll. After the roll they may hit dodge again to make a forward leap 2 or 3 times as long as the roll and much faster. If invulnerability frames are used, they would only work during the middle of the roll, not at all during the lunge. They may also change direction after the roll. Whould also allow special Lunge>kick and Lunge>melee combos.

-Heavy warframes get a flying tackle. They would crouch low to the ground and then leap, staggering anything they touch. Invuln. frames would apply during the crouch, not the tackle. They would also recover and keep momentum better than the other two dodge powers.

-They shouldn't do anything power like at all!

- this is the dumbest argument in my opinion, but whatever.

- use the above animations, but don't give flash step or flying tackle their secondary affects or the roll-lunge-combos. They are still balanced by flash step being the fastest, roll-lunge being the most distance traveled and Tackle chaining into movement better.

Those where the anti-arguments I saw, where there any others?

Edited July 2, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[Mr.Kazimir]

+1, I always thought that this game should be all about the spectacle and uniqueness of the warframes. Your should suggestion would really differentiate the warframes and make the game more fun and varied. It would also heavily alter each frame`s play style, which we really need. I would give you a hundred thumbs up if I could.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You can be knocked out of the air. Heavy weapons are slow so after the knockdown there isnt a massive slaughter since the downed attack takes so long to perform.

Who said anything about performing the down attack? Just use your ten seconds of freedom to shoot the enemy while they're getting up.

Also, while you "can" be knocked out of the air, it almost never happens because the only thing that can do so is something that can stagger you. Which is rollers and melee, but enemies don't have time to melee you in most cases when you're in the air.

What's the disadvantage of this dodge attack?

Anyone want to tell me?

You're locked into a 1-1.5 second animation while you only have a couple of invulnerability frames. Also the more you spam it the shorter your window of invulnerability gets.

[Mak_Gohae]

Who said anything about performing the down attack? Just use your ten seconds of freedom to shoot the enemy while they're getting up.

Also, while you "can" be knocked out of the air, it almost never happens because the only thing that can do so is something that can stagger you. Which is rollers and melee, but enemies don't have time to melee you in most cases when you're in the air.

 

 

Then you are loosing ammo.

And, yes, we all know that the game has some weaker units.

 

By the way.... we are not ignoring the fact that you have to run at the enemy to be withing range of this melee attack, correct?

I didnt mention all the basic stuff because i thought we all knew this.

 

You're locked into a 1-1.5 second animation while you only have a couple of invulnerability frames. Also the more you spam it the shorter your window of invulnerability gets.

 

The disadvantage of this dodge move is that you are .....dodging?

I dont think anyone can really call this a disadvantage.

And that after you successfully use it once you can use it again.....

Like i mentioned above, if it's successful the first time why would you need to do it again and again?

[ValhaHazred]

Then you are loosing ammo.

And, yes, we all know that the game has some weaker units.

 

By the way.... we are not ignoring the fact that you have to run at the enemy to be withing range of this melee attack, correct?

I didnt mention all the basic stuff because i thought we all knew this.

The disadvantage of this dodge move is that you are .....dodging?

I dont think anyone can really call this a disadvantage.

And that after you successfully use it once you can use it again.....

Like i mentioned above, if it's successful the first time why would you need to do it again and again?

1. The special dodge powers MJ12 suggested all work within similar ranges as a jump attack, and thanks to invulnerability frames only covering fractions of a second are equally vulnerable to stagger and knockdown.

2. Lets compare

current dodge: cons:uses stamina, slows you down, cannot attack, doesn't dodge bullets. pros: dodges some melee attacks

power dodges: cons:uses stamina, slows you down, has an effectiveness cool down. pros: dodges a small amount of bullets, dodges some melee attacks, has a weak secondary effect.

True it has fewer drawbacks than the current one, but that's because it basically does nothing right now.

Of course you need to use it more than once sometimes : boss fights, surrounded, poor positioning after first dodge, etc.

[Transient_Tiefling]

I like the general Ideas that you brought up in the Original post. Not sure I like the ideas on everyones specific dodges, but theres a foundation to work with now.

 

As for how the dodges should be labelled, I dont think dodges need to be complicated or even unique to every frame, if they were going to fix it, the easiest solution is to just add invul. frames and allow you to roll through enemies. That alone would make me happy enough.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Then you are loosing ammo.

And? Ammo for nearly every gun is not a concern. It's only high ROF bullethoses that worry about ammo at all, and for those you'd have used that ammo anyway.

 

By the way.... we are not ignoring the fact that you have to run at the enemy to be withing range of this melee attack, correct?

Err, no? But you have to be within range of the enemy to take advantage of the special features that MJ's proposing for dodges.

Seriously, what are you even saying?

 

The disadvantage of this dodge move is that you are .....dodging?

I dont think anyone can really call this a disadvantage.

No, the disadvantage of this move is that you're locked into a 1.5 second animation during which time you can't evade. So if you accidentally dodge into a less advantageous position (and it happens more often than you think in a hectic close quarters fight), you're in trouble. If the enemy retargets you while you're dodging, or if more enemies arrive and start targeting you (both things that happen frequently in this game), being locked in such a long animation is a disadvantage.

And that after you successfully use it once you can use it again.....

Like i mentioned above, if it's successful the first time why would you need to do it again and again?

Because one of the only valid objections is "hur durr spam for invulnerability frames".

[Mak_Gohae]

And? Ammo for nearly every gun is not a concern. It's only high ROF bullethoses that worry about ammo at all, and for those you'd have used that ammo anyway.

 

 

 

So there is a balance depending on the weapons. Imagine that.

 

 

Err, no? But you have to be within range of the enemy to take advantage of the special features that MJ's proposing for dodges.

Seriously, what are you even saying?

 

 

Melee jump attack need you to be within range of the melee jump attack which means you are putting yourself in some danger. 

 

No, the disadvantage of this move is that you're locked into a 1.5 second animation during which time you can't evade.

 

So the disadvantage of evading is that you cant evade during an...... evade.....right.

 

So if you accidentally dodge into a less advantageous position (and it happens more often than you think in a hectic close quarters fight), you're in trouble. If the enemy retargets you while you're dodging, or if more enemies arrive and start targeting you (both things that happen frequently in this game), being locked in such a long animation is a disadvantage.

 

Have you not read some of these attacks?

Ash teleports somewhere and is invulnerable through the whole thing except the end.

Banshee stuns enemies on the place she lands.

Nyx becomes invisible to targets.

 

Some of this stuff has little to no way to screw up.

Because one of the only valid objections is "hur durr spam for invulnerability frames".

 

Do notice that you folks are the only one bringing in the spam argument.

I have never said anything about spamming because of the way some of the attacks behave where there is no reason to spam.

[Mak_Gohae]

1. The special dodge powers MJ12 suggested all work within similar ranges as a jump attack, and thanks to invulnerability frames only covering fractions of a second are equally vulnerable to stagger and knockdown.

2. Lets compare

current dodge: cons:uses stamina, slows you down, cannot attack, doesn't dodge bullets. pros: dodges some melee attacks

power dodges: cons:uses stamina, slows you down, has an effectiveness cool down. pros: dodges a small amount of bullets, dodges some melee attacks, has a weak secondary effect.

True it has fewer drawbacks than the current one, but that's because it basically does nothing right now.

Of course you need to use it more than once sometimes : boss fights, surrounded, poor positioning after first dodge, etc.

 

1. Depends on the attack. Some attack have you safe for a long bit.

2. You can actually dodge bullets. But if you are on an angle where you movement isnt large the enemy can still hit you. The current dodge doesnt cover all angles.

3. The stamina question has been brought up and not being answered, i think. Does regeneration start after activation or at the end of the move because if it begins to recharge after activation.... some of the moves here seem to be long enough for you to have a good amount back by the time it ends.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

So there is a balance depending on the weapons. Imagine that.

What are you even saying here?

 

 

Melee jump attack need you to be within range of the melee jump attack which means you are putting yourself in some danger.

All of the "special" dodge moves need you to be within a few meters of the target, which means you're in some danger.

Derp.  

 

So the disadvantage of evading is that you cant evade during an...... evade.....right.

The disadvantage of evading is that you can't chain evade moves, which means if you misjudge your evasion you're possibly in a worse position than when you started.

This is a good thing because it encourages player skill.

 

 

Have you not read some of these attacks?

I'd ask you the very same thing, considering you clearly haven't. For instance:

Ash teleports somewhere and is invulnerable through the whole thing except the end.

Provides invulnerability for most of the dodge, although he is vulnerable while reappearing.

Note the "while reappearing" part.

Also note that we're discussing a very short range teleport here.

Banshee stuns enemies on the place she lands.

Yes. Stun meaning stagger, meaning it's a very small advantage. If you'd read the description you'd see that the invulnerability frames only kick in at the beginning of the dodge.

Nyx becomes invisible to targets.

For a "very short" period of time. FFS dude, if you're going to criticize the idea, at least read the whole description instead of skimming it.

 

Some of this stuff has little to no way to screw up.

You know this system is partly based on the system in Mass Effect 3, right? For instance, Ash's proposed teleport dodge is clearly similar to the N7 Slayer's dodge in ME3. In that game, there are lots of ways to screw up your timing.

This is because invulnerability frames are extremely brief. Again, most games give you about five, with most games being played at 30 FPS to 60 FPS.

 

 

Do notice that you folks are the only one bringing in the spam argument.

I have never said anything about spamming because of the way some of the attacks behave where there is no reason to spam.

Yes, that's why I said it was one of the only valid counterarguments. It's not my fault that you're arguing so poorly and missing the counterarguments that actually address the issues in the idea.

[ValhaHazred]

I can't speak for MJ12, but I can't imagine why stamina regen would start at the beginning of the animation. I'm just going to assume he intended it to be at the end.

Ash teleports somewhere and is invulnerable through the whole thing except the end.

Banshee stuns enemies on the place she lands.

Nyx becomes invisible to targets.

The teleport only last a fraction of a second, and he is specifically vulnerable afterwards.

Oh no, not a short range stagger she's not invulnerable for! What ever will we do for this clearly Op ability @_@

Intermitent and extremely brief invisibility.

These aren't exactly game changers here.

Melee jump attack need you to be within range of the melee jump attack which means you are putting yourself in some danger.

And if you want to take advantage of the offensive dodges, you have to just as close, if not closer.

So the disadvantage of evading is that you cant evade during an...... evade.....right.

No, the disadvantage is being commited to a move that takes long enough that the circumstances surrounding your use of that move have changed enough to put you at a disadvantage.

Dodging and evasion are two different things. A dodge avoids a single attack, evasion gets you out of the way of it's follow-ups too.

[Guest]

Ash

Evasion Type: Mobility

Evasion Name: Shadow Step

Description: 

-Flash-step

-Leaves an intangible afterimage and light fog behind

-Dodge can be used to phase through enemies and obstacles

-Invincible at the start of the animation

-Quick animation

 

Excalibur

Evasion Type: Offensive

Evasion Name: Step

Description: 

-Simple but fast side-step

-Can fire weapons during animation

-Invincibility frames in the middle of animation

-Average speed animation

 

Frost

Evasion Type: Mobility

Evasion Name: Ice Slide

Description: Frost freezes the ground underneath him and skates rapidly in the chosen direction. Frost is invulnerable for the start of the animation.

-Ices the floor to quickly slide on

-The temporary ice trail (as well as ice discharge in the front) slows enemy movement

-Invincible front, vulnerable back during animation

-Average speed animation

 

Rhino

Evasion Type: Offensive

Evasion Name: Mighty Charge

Description: 

-Ramming shoulder charge

-Knocks down light units

-Bumps off against heavier units

-Deals weak damage on contact

-No invincibility frames, but bullets ricochet off of the charge

-Long animation

 

Loki

Evasion Type: Utility

Evasion Name: Switch

Description: 

-Short range switch teleport

-Face the direction you were walking after teleport

-Not instantaneous, you can be hit during and before "phase switch"

-Short invincibility at the end of the animation

-Quick animation

 

 

Volt

Evasion Type: Mobility

Evasion Name: Lightning Step

Description: 

-Flash-step

-Short range pulse stuns enemies at the start of the animation

-Leaves an electic trail

-Stun lasts for a second or two

-Invincibility frames in the middle of animation

-Quick animation

just my two cents

peace out

[.Raiden.]

Why not just rework the whole "Block" thinggy. Since it depletes your stamina, why not make it block or should I say parry incoming bullets, melee, rockets (Kela's attack) but idk about laser from Corpus crews. 

[ValhaHazred]

They both need work, Raiden. There are some really good block suggestions already but very few dodge ones, so that's what we are focusing on here.

[MJ12]

Anyways, Rhino's dodge being some sort of wrestling move is a pretty awesome idea. So how about...

 

Rhino

Evasion Type: Offensive

Evasion Name: Tackle

Rhino leaps in the chosen direction. If an enemy is in the path, Rhino bowls the enemy over, ragdolling them and knocking them to the ground. If he fails to hit an enemy, he has a faster recovery from the animation. Rhino has invulnerability frames during the start of the leap and a few more if he hits an enemy.

[Lukap99]

For a game that focuses on "the speed and mobility on the ninja" the warframes aren't very good at dodging.

[InsomniacOvrLrd]

Dear DE,

 

Dodge Roll Mechanics : Please see "Dark Souls". Really, it's perfect there. Small Iframe window in the start of your roll. Heavier suits get a fatroll, lighter suits get a slightly more spammable fastroll. Done.

Fromsoft did you work for you already. Send them a thank you card, and put this into your game.

[FatalionPanic-EGT-]

Please forgive me for not reading through all of the 8 pages ... but which dodge is subject to be changed again? Since there are at least 3 different dodges atm (no aiming, aiming back-flip, aiming side-flip) and were they all tested?

 

I believe there is an issue with dodge actually providing any benefit because of the FPS which are ... difficult to cope with so to me it seems like DE just didn't bother yet (assuming they are using an engine based on the unreal engine).

 

Full invulnerability is one option what about an increased defense rate while dodging or sliding?

I kind of feel like there is too much exploit-bait in invulnerability in general.

[ValhaHazred]

Please forgive me for not reading through all of the 8 pages ... but which dodge is subject to be changed again? Since there are at least 3 different dodges atm (no aiming, aiming back-flip, aiming side-flip) and were they all tested?

 

I believe there is an issue with dodge actually providing any benefit because of the FPS which are ... difficult to cope with so to me it seems like DE just didn't bother yet (assuming they are using an engine based on the unreal engine).

 

Full invulnerability is one option what about an increased defense rate while dodging or sliding?

I kind of feel like there is too much exploit-bait in invulnerability in general.

I can understand not reading the whole thing, so let me break it down:

1. All 3 dodges, since they currently don't do much aside from play the animation and use stamina (and enable break dancing competitions in the Pink Giant Octopus dojo)

2. MJ12 proposed each frame get a unique dodge based mini-power. Although awesome, I could see the devs not wanting to put that much work into it, so I proposed 3 dodges (Flash step, Roll-lunge and Tackle) dependant on frame category.

3. A couple of people had knee-jerk reactions against invulnerability frames, likely not realizing that "frame" means about 1/30th of a second or that almost every game puts invuln. frames in dodge animations.

4. I believe Warframe's engine is entirely created in house

5. It wouldn't be full invuln, just a few fractions of a second

6. The number of frames of invuln you got would have a cool down, negating any possible exploit.