The Relic System is a Step Backwards.

[Trittium00]

9 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

DE would actually be smart to improve the solo experience in this game. Things like terrible spawn rates in solo mode and the dramatic difference in farming efficiency doesn't help them keep solo or smaller group players (of which there are probably many) around. 

Believe it or not but I personally quite like the solo play. Getting my screen filled with Simulor vortices from Mirage players generally drives me mad, but that's another issue.

But when it comes to getting rare parts, I suck it up and go into recruiting chat so that my odds are greatly improved. Not doing so would mean that I waste far more time and personal frustration at not getting the part I'm after.

I value my time so I just jump into a quick radiant share and it's over and done with in 5 minutes or less. Not grouping up and making your life harder, then coming into the forums and complaining is just wasting more and more of your leisure time.

Work smarter, not harder dude!

[Xaero]

The relic system is a step forward because I've got everything from the last two accesses in a week which never happened in the old void.

[Max_AKC]

1 hour ago, (XB1)AtlongsterATL said:

The relic system is better for the greater number of people.  Most pple can't spend hours grinding hoping for that magic rotation.  In the old system I didn't stand a chance, bc of life I only get a few hrs here and there to play.  In the new relic system I'm a blueprint away from my first prime frame, after almost a year of playing. 

That makes me feel awesome.  I bet I'm not the only one. 

Having to farm void traces adds a great deal to that time; there's a lot more preliminary work to do now than there used to be.

Trittium, i was playing in a group of 4. So i had the 33%, and my results made me feel that the new system has not improved over the Tower system, yet has added an element of unfun. I could care less about playing in whatever other tileset, the Orokin ships were gorgeous so i sure didn't mind spending hours there. I don't feel the same way about the fugly Grineer shipyards. It's better now that we can run relic missions in the void, but overall i feel that the magic of Warframe has been lost since SOTR, and that it has been gradually changing into something far more soul-less (quite ironic given they're polishing everything now). Probably just me though...

[RedDirtTrooper]

I think the new relic system is much better than what we had before, in every way. I could not disagree more. The old system was just soul crushing. People used to grind for weeks, even months at a time trying to finish out a single prime.

[Loswaith]

Mathematically players are actually worse off now in the system.

While sure you have 34.39% chance to get a choice of at least one rare in a group with 4 identical radiant relics (27.1% with 3 identical relics, 19% with 2 and 10% with just one) however to get the radiant relics each player needs to have done an average of 5 missions (average for unboosted traces is 18, lets go 20 though), thus 6 missions overall.  

In the previous chances those 6 missions would have given all players 5.64% (worst case) chance per run, thus 29.41% of having got at-least one rare in those 6 missions for all players be it one person or 4 (presuming you haven't gotten one before the 6th attempt).  Thus even for 4 identical relics it is only an improvement of 4.98%, however for 3 identical relics that would be a net reduction of -2.31% even if you are in a group of 4 players with the same types of relics (eg all axi relics), but not identical ones (essentially equivalent of a key-share for one player), and even less for fewer identical relics.

Thus while it is marginly better for 4 identical relics it is worse for every other relic combination.

 

It may feel better but it is mathematically worse and any improvement is just a change in your luck.  Sure we have a bit of agency in the outcome now, but that doesn't make the chances any better.

Even for 4 player groups a 7th run in the old system will make the odds basically the same while a 8th will actually make the old system result with a higher chance to have gotten the rare you are after.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Loswaith

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

Being able to choose prime parts from the relic system and the new system has promoted more team work over solo'ing and hoping for the best. The old T3 defence was clogged up too much to get specific prime parts I would've wanted to get. It makes ducat farming easier because you can choose the more valuable ones and get more ducats for Baro. You can find certain parts and see your chances to get the part and it makes completing sets better. You're just copping bad rng, but I've had both good and bad luck with it.

I liked the old system but you can't get vaulted prime warframes or weapons with it. 

[Max_AKC]

15 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

I think the new relic system is much better than what we had before, in every way. I could not disagree more. The old system was just soul crushing. People used to grind for weeks, even months at a time trying to finish out a single prime.

Yeah, i couldn't disagree more with that. The new system is soul-crushing for me at least. I'll keep trying, but it's a hell of a grind to collect relics, farm void traces, run the relic mission and find that all that time i spent farming the shiz is wasted, leaving me to start all over again. And yeah, the old system was repetitive as hell, but it was a lot simpler.

[Loswaith]

19 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

I think the new relic system is much better than what we had before, in every way. I could not disagree more. The old system was just soul crushing. People used to grind for weeks, even months at a time trying to finish out a single prime.

People do the same in the new system as well, the difference being much of that time they are spending gives them no chance at all to gain the part they are after. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Loswaith

[Max_AKC]

4 minutes ago, LittleArachnid said:

Being able to choose prime parts from the relic system and the new system has promoted more team work over solo'ing and hoping for the best. The old T3 defence was clogged up too much to get specific prime parts I would've wanted to get. It makes ducat farming easier because you can choose the more valuable ones and get more ducats for Baro. You can find certain parts and see your chances to get the part and it makes completing sets better. You're just copping bad rng, but I've had both good and bad luck with it.

I liked the old system but you can't get vaulted prime warframes or weapons with it. 

Being able to choose the more valuable prime parts for ducats is definitely good. But players shouldn't be forced to play in a team because it's more efficient that way - why is it that DE seem to constantly punish solo players and reward the lucky ones with a good enough internet connection? It's unfair

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

Just now, SpiralViper said:

Being able to choose the more valuable prime parts for ducats is definitely good. But players shouldn't be forced to play in a team because it's more efficient that way - why is it that DE seem to constantly punish solo players and reward the lucky ones with a good enough internet connection? It's unfair

The new relic system is punishing for solo players, but on the other hand encouraging teamwork and group play isn't such a bad thing. I used to solo T1 survivals, hated dealing with the overclogged T3 defence loot table where ash prime blueprint was near impossible. Both systems admittedly have their flaws but I like the relic system.

 

[Max_AKC]

Encouraging team work is good, sure. But making it more efficient than solo play, which punishes solo players, isn't. Not everyone's internet connection is godlike

[RedDirtTrooper]

29 minutes ago, SpiralViper said:

Yeah, i couldn't disagree more with that. The new system is soul-crushing for me at least. I'll keep trying, but it's a hell of a grind to collect relics, farm void traces, run the relic mission and find that all that time i spent farming the shiz is wasted, leaving me to start all over again. And yeah, the old system was repetitive as hell, but it was a lot simpler.

 

29 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

People do the same in the new system as well, the difference being much of that time they are spending gives them no chance at all to gain the part they are after. 

My experience couldn't be further from this. My regular play nets me more than enough relics to get anything I want. So many in fact that whenever a decent fast fissure mission pops up I'll often spend the whole time it's open just running it to get rid of intact relics that I don't need any parts from. I get a ton of common a very nice amount of uncommon and rare things to sell or convert to ducats, and lots of traces. Enough that when I see a decent relic rad share for something I don't have, I usually have plenty of them to quickly make that particular relic radiant and jump in. Doing radiant runs I find I get parts I'm actively trying to acquire within one or two days.

For me, none of this comes anywhere close to the tedium of the old system.

[Max_AKC]

40 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

 

My experience couldn't be further from this. My regular play nets me more than enough relics to get anything I want. So many in fact that whenever a decent fast fissure mission pops up I'll often spend the whole time it's open just running it to get rid of intact relics that I don't need any parts from. I get a ton of common a very nice amount of uncommon and rare things to sell or convert to ducats, and lots of traces. Enough that when I see a decent relic rad share for something I don't have, I usually have plenty of them to quickly make that particular relic radiant and jump in. Doing radiant runs I find I get parts I'm actively trying to acquire within one or two days.

For me, none of this comes anywhere close to the tedium of the old system.

Where do you farm your relics? I wanna know :P

 

Just ran an Axi solo, used a relic to get bronco receiver, and the reward screen didn't even appear. Thanks heaps DE. Gotta love #bugframe. :(

[Max_AKC]

Also today, did the first part of the sortie, went to select the next one, and got told I hadn't done the first one yet. Warframe is a game with a good story, stunning graphics, solid gameplay and game-breaking bugs everywhere that make me feel frustrated all the damn time. #pissedoff

[Loswaith]

3 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

 

My experience couldn't be further from this. My regular play nets me more than enough relics to get anything I want. So many in fact that whenever a decent fast fissure mission pops up I'll often spend the whole time it's open just running it to get rid of intact relics that I don't need any parts from. I get a ton of common a very nice amount of uncommon and rare things to sell or convert to ducats, and lots of traces. Enough that when I see a decent relic rad share for something I don't have, I usually have plenty of them to quickly make that particular relic radiant and jump in. Doing radiant runs I find I get parts I'm actively trying to acquire within one or two days.

For me, none of this comes anywhere close to the tedium of the old system.

I got all my prime stuff in the old missions without any real tedium what so ever (I'm sure many others did as well).  So my experience with the old system was much as you have with the new system.  That is why I use the maths to tell the story, and the maths tells us it is worse under all but one specific way.

However that doesn't mean the old system didn't have tedium for many players.  Plenty of players have the tedium in this system too, just because you are luckier and don't have it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Loswaith

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

7 hours ago, Trittium00 said:

Alright that's a point. But I ask you this, what's stopping someone from joining in a radiant relic share?

A lot. Connectivity issues, not farming the items when they are the new hotness, wanting to just play with friends, not having the same number of traces, etc

[TessaraVejgan]

The new system is fantastic, an enormous improvement over the old void. I remember doing t3 defense so many times trying to get ash p bp that I wanted to vomit (same thing with soma receiver, and some other parts). I even quit the game for some 2 months because I felt frustrated, was not fun. In the end I paid someone 150p for the bp. Now days you can get the whole set for less. In the old days I had to spend that 20 min/waves  no matter what because that was c rotation and the parts dropped there and now I can just wait for a cap, ext or sab, get my part and move on to other missions. When Nekros p came out I simply refined the relics went to recruitment chat, teamed up and got the parts on the first try. That felt great. I may have farmed traces in the beginning when the system rolled but now days there is no need since I'm always at the limit (1200) because of ducat farming and have to refine relics just so the traces don't go to waste. To move from old void to the new fissure system was an excellent decision and I'm glad they did it.    

[Max_AKC]

I had the same experience with Ash Prime BP in the old system, always running T3 Def and never getting it. When the relic system came out, i got it on the first try. And that is my only good experience with the relic system. I've kept trying for the most part of every day since i posted this thread, upgrading relics to radiant every time, and failing to get the part i'm looking for every single damn time. This system is a failure imo. At this point, basically the only way to get a prime warframe or weapon is to buy the prime access, which is exactly what DE wants, right? It's a step backwards for the players, and a huge step forward for DE's profits.

[Guest]

I would like to say something about this.

I have played quite some time with both systems, an i gave the relics system a chance.

At first i liked it becuase i got the parts i wanted within an hour of me starting to farm. But then i decided to try to get vauban prime where i wasted all my relics to get him.

- Guess what?

I had ONE vauban prime part and no relics.

Then i went talking with a good friend (who stopped playing because of the relics) and we agreed on the fact that we think the old system is better.

- Why?

We would spend hours in there to get stuff, test builds and also to get as far as possible. Now i know everything i just said is still possible as of now.

But the combination of possible crazy moments and some useful rewards made us like it very much.

We both think that getting prime parts with the relics system is just too boring.

You hop in a mission, try to get 10 reactant and get a reward,most of the time i worry more about getting enough reactant than the mission reward itself.

Now we had so much fun doing T3/4 Sabotage, we loved hunting down the caches to get another chance at the reward we wanted.

It is all about rewards yes, but this game is quite grindy so it fits the rest, and i am okay with this, i like to work for stuff i want. 

The relic system does not give me that feeling, it is either too easy or way too hard to get what you need.

And one big thing is that about every mission is done in 5 minutes. Where the A/B/C rotation required you to stay longer, in my opinion those fast missions cause a burnout faster than staying longer to hopefully get the parts you want.

Which gives them the feeling of being easy and makes them boring (for me).

The new suggested endless relic system is not a real fix in my eyes, because every 5 rounds or minutes you have to worry about getting reactant

Later on i decided to search for solutions for the bad parts of the keys system and think i have some.

1. Rebalance Drop tables

2. Add more mission types to the void, i suggest Void Spy, Void hijack and Void Rescue

3. Add more maps to defence and interception (although i havent really done many Void interception mission), i got bored of seeing the same map over and over again so add some more and let them rotate, which does not get boring that fast.

I even think the void tileset cold use some new rooms.

Also i like the idea of Void Assasinate and maybe bringing back Raid as a void mission could be something to look at.

The first 2 suggestions are there to give players a bigger chance of getting something they want because the drop tables arent that polluted anymore. I think more missions means a better spread of rewards which leads to less grinding

So i this is how i think DE should do it, obviously they decide what happens, but i hope they will at least look at this amd maybe consider it.

 

Also good to note is that i have almost every prime warframe or weapon they released, either build or a a complete set of parts.

The only primes i am missing are the founders primes and sadly i was not playing the game when those were available.

So for me getting the parts i want is not that important for me anymore, it is about getting the fun of a T3/4 Sabotage/Survival back, and for me the rewards are a part of the fun.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Guest

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 11/16/2016 at 10:40 PM, Raniu said:

Now you can open a relic every 5 waves. You can even open them on different missions.

You seem to forget that you have to grind for each individual relic, grind for traces, grind for reactant, etc. It's actually a lot more time wasted than the old system. The old system was a lot more fun too. 

farming for the item you want is way more fun than grinding for the right to farm it later

[Max_AKC]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

You seem to forget that you have to grind for each individual relic, grind for traces, grind for reactant, etc. It's actually a lot more time wasted than the old system. The old system was a lot more fun too. 

farming for the item you want is way more fun than grinding for the right to farm it later

This! Exactly, i couldn't have said it better

[onieyez]

The only good thing that changed is that everyone has a different item at the end and also it's a lot quicker to join random groups for relics

I have a ton of relics when I came back, but I realized... where the hell do I go to farm for a certain relic?

and when a new Prime comes out, how the hell do I farm for that relic << old system was a lot easier for this

I don't like the collecting 10, sometimes you get trolled by randoms, sometimes you  join exterminate and you're screwed, and you can't rush capture missions anymore.

Edited November 19, 2016 by onieyez

[HyokaChan]

On 17/11/2016 at 2:33 PM, Loswaith said:

People do the same in the new system as well, the difference being much of that time they are spending gives them no chance at all to gain the part they are after. 

This. Instead of directly running for the part, you're busy getting the traces to make radiant relics to try your hand at the part (otherwise you'd need hundreds of relics!)

Even now, I still don't even have a single Galatine Prime part (hell, I didn't even manage to find the BP) and only duckits to show for it...

Edited November 19, 2016 by HyokaChan

[Kraft-]

Why not just make void missions have an entry fee, and make it act keys? That way people who like the relic system can use that system, and people who liked keys could play keys.