The Changes to Stealth are Terrible

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

that is exactly a band-aid, you want a game mechanic that lets you effectively revert Enemies noticing Corpses. rather than looking for ways for it to be made to work better.

Okay, so what would you propose they do, assuming for a moment that there actually is a problem? I'm all ears.

Keep in mind that I also suggested re-working pathing (doesn't seem feasible on account of tile generation and other wonkiness) to follow exploitable patterns or temporarily revert the changes while they work on figuring out how to let players compensate.

On the subject of corpse destruction:

It doesn't have to start out instant. Perhaps building for status chance and status duration improves the speed at which the corpses are consumed? Thus simply slapping corrosive damage on a weapon isn't enough to solve the problem entirely.

My point is that players need to have some way to respond, not necessarily just wave their hands and say "now you don't notice corpses" the same way you can just slap on a mod and say "now you don't hear my shotgun."

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i Kill them before they can notice Corpses.
using Bows to staple Enemies up onto the walls or other places away from Enemies i'm sure would work - i haven't intentionally done that myself but that sounds like a good idea.

That tells me exactly nothing. What weapon are you using? Anything special in the mod loadout? What Warframe? Any supplemental powers?

Sure, if you can wipe out the entirety of a crowd with a shotgun blast or some other AOE weapon, that's probably effective when you don't encounter tons of enemies spread out over a relatively wide area without much in the way of LOS blocking.

I haven't really experimented with bows because they were actually less-than-ideal for stealth before in my experience, because the "pin to walls" tended to make corpses brush into enemies as they flew past without necessarily killing them, causing the enemies to either go into half-alerted states fairly regularly. Oddly enough, more frequently than when using hit-scan weapons.

[taiiat]

10 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That tells me exactly nothing. What weapon are you using? Anything special in the mod loadout? What Warframe? Any supplemental powers?

uhh, whatever Weapons i brought with me. probably something that deals very solid Damage on each Shot though, so that one can reliably Kill Enemies without Alerting them. obviously.
but ensuring the Weapons are Suppressed (or naturally silent) is pretty key.

nothing more special than having some Enemy and L00t Radar to know the surroundings.

i'm normally using Ivara because she has nice Utility with Ziplines, Navigator and Et Cetera - Sleep Arrows also work as Damage Control. but what Warframe i'm using isn't really of the utmost importance, because Enemies have poor sight above them so sneaking around in the air works very well, regardless of Abilities used.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 11:16 PM, AM-Bunny said:

Nullifier Changes

Let's say for the sake of optimal scenario you're doing a stealth run with Loki. You see a Nullifier (or 2 or 3) which leaves you with two courses of action:

• Enter the bubble, nullifying your Invisibility and alerting the horde of enemies inevitably huddled inside or nearby the bubble
• Try and pop the bubble by attacking it, alerting the Nullifier and negating the stealth bonus

Unless you get incredibly lucky and find a Nullifier by itself so you can sneak into its bubble from behind, these guys make stealth runs completely impossible, even in optimal Loki scenario.

I found out something interesting about the nully bubbles.  If you throw a Pox in their path, it will not alert the nullies at all while getting rid of the bubble.  I double tested last night just to be sure.  Each time the Nullies walked right into them, lost their bubbles, and died.  All without being alerted.  So, the Pox is your friend for Stealth missions.  :D  Happy Hunting Tenno!

edit:  I can safely assume that the Mutalist Cernos can do the same thing if shot just outside the bubble. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added content

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

uhh, whatever Weapons i brought with me. probably something that deals very solid Damage on each Shot though, so that one can reliably Kill Enemies without Alerting them. obviously.
but ensuring the Weapons are Suppressed (or naturally silent) is pretty key.

nothing more special than having some Enemy and L00t Radar to know the surroundings.

i'm normally using Ivara because she has nice Utility with Ziplines, Navigator and Et Cetera - Sleep Arrows also work as Damage Control. but what Warframe i'm using isn't really of the utmost importance, because Enemies have poor sight above them so sneaking around in the air works very well, regardless of Abilities used.

:\

So either you aren't willing to be specific, or you're taking shelter in generalities. Okay. Surprise-surprise that you're regularly using Ivara - one of the Warframes that still has a workable stealth power against clustered groups - and not encountering issue to the same degrees as the rest of us.

I have tried out:

 

• Loki
• Banshee
• Nekros
• Ivara
• Excalibur

 

Using weapons like:

 

• Latron Wraith
• Lex Prime
• Strun Wraith
• Opticor
• Rubico
• Lanka
• Brakk

 

I don't have problems remaining undetected. I don't have problems keeping Alarms off. Those are not the issues I am talking about. So please stop writing as though my only issue is that I don't know how to stealth.

I am talking about the incompatibility between having a time-limit imposed on kill rate for the XP bonus and stealth detection mechanics that require a much slower and methodical approach to kills, which detracts from the already-ill-fitted pacing of stealth relative to normal play and severely hampers the maintenance of a good XP multiplier. The XP multiplier that is the primary motivator for many players who do stealth.

Is stealth doable? Yes, with the right equipment. That's not the point, though.

Is stealth fun? No, not really, after the most recent changes (obviously subjective, and I shouldn't have to disclaimer that this is an opinion, but just in case...).

Why? Because it stretched the pacing disparity past the breaking point, and the completely unpredictable nature of AI pathing combined with seemingly-inconsistent detection on a 2-d plane (where most corpses end up) makes it feel frustrating and unfair. 

Is that realistic? Yes! And usually I'm all for realistic/immersive changes, BUT the line is drawn where realism starts to detract from gameplay because we are playing a game, not a simulator.

The only defense of this corpse detection mechanic is that it is "realistic." It doesn't somehow improve the experience, and it can't reasonably clamp minimum player skill until the rest of the mechanics that make stealth games fun are also put into place. Hence my suggestion of "give us tools do deal with it, or remove it until you can integrate it completely."

Recall that I wrote "stealth is broken," not "stealth is impossible." That's because I now have almost zero motivation to stealth because of the arbitrary frustration factor, whereas before it was useful for something. And before you go there, no, stealthing does not make a mission easier to a degree that it is worth slowing down that much solely for the tactical advantage. There's no real reason to sneak around anymore when players can still face-roll pretty much anything the game throws at them.

Edited November 19, 2016 by DiabolusUrsus
Frickin' spoilers combining

[DatDarkOne]

Since we can't move dead bodies, I think it makes a bit of sense for corrosive damage to completely destroy the bodies.

Other than that, I don't have any problems what so ever with all the other things like enemy pathing. I have previously said that the stealth changes heavily favor Ivara. Also because I main Ivara that I can't objectively say the changes are good or bad. The only other thing I would like is some kind of in-game incentive to play stealthy. This won't stop me from playing stealth as I like it and the changes, but it would be nice to have incentives.

[Revi-Dragon]

also this corps detection mecanic sems to also afect the 4X damage multiplyer from melee weapons from wath i can tell, so the enemyes that get alerted take normal damage rather then the suposed 4X damage multiplyer they are suposed to get from the melee attacks (atlist that's wath it flock like fore me).

not to mention that now enemies also sems to be aware of your melee weapons hiting wals or close to them as if making sound, i mene i have seen multiple times when enemies turn around alerted in the direction where the first plase i hit with the spin attack of my scholiak and ortos prime when i didn't even hit any other enemies in the aria, or that i don't get any stelt multiplyer xp bonus from the first kill of an unavare enemy even when the conter in exterminat misions say only 1 have bene killed and it ware unavare...

and i have also tested the dred if you fire it and hit the flore near the enemies they also now get alerted and brake the stelt multiplyer if you kill them afther ward.

so not entierly sure wath they did to the stelt system but it is sertenly not someting i can say i enjoy this fare unfortunaly...

well thats the experiense i have gatered from it this fare.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Surprise-surprise that you're regularly using Ivara

 

I am talking about

yes, because Sleep Arrows helps with Damage Control when the problems with Stealth occur.
but it doesn't matter what Warframe is used, the same problems exist regardless. and they still occur periodically.
just like it doesn't really matter what Weapons, and i said exactly what i meant (i know, it's weird that i do, most people don't) - Weapons used is vague because the Weapons i use varies all over the place.

at this point it seems like you're talking about looking for a source to bump your Thread on constantly by arguing against the things you agree with, or something.
which i've lost interest in. we're saying similar things (aside from insisting trivialization of things or removal of things that you decide you don't like because it makes Stealth more complex to perform but w/e) but you have a chip on your shoulder and can't see that.

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes, because Sleep Arrows helps with Damage Control when the problems with Stealth occur.
but it doesn't matter what Warframe is used, the same problems exist regardless. and they still occur periodically.
just like it doesn't really matter what Weapons, and i said exactly what i meant (i know, it's weird that i do, most people don't) - Weapons used is vague because the Weapons i use varies all over the place.

All I've been asking for is an earnest engagement of the subject matter on your part, which I've yet to get. Your entire point is "meh, not my problem," and you repeatedly refuse to contribute anything useful to the discussion.

You didn't even have the grace to say "I think it's fine," or "I disagree." Instead it's "You're exaggerating," as though you can somehow objectively disprove my experiences with the changes.

And I'm the one with a chip on my shoulder? That's rich.

My position on the issue hasn't changed between this post and the OP. I think the changes are realistic but don't make much sense from a gameplay perspective, and I haven't really heard any arguments in favor of the changes other than "it's realistic."

Actually counter the points I raise if you want to disprove me, instead of just handwaving everything as "it's fine, you're just complaining too much."

How is it fine? How does this improve stealth and make it more attractive and/or engaging to players, or is your fondness for it derived entirely from some false sense of hardcore elitism? 

The weapons you use are all over the place? That's fine, list a few. It doesn't hurt to be specific, especially when you've just gotten a request to be specific. If you still won't, it makes it seem like you're wary of details because it makes you commit to something concrete. Does that make sense?

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

at this point it seems like you're talking about looking for a source to bump your Thread on constantly by arguing against the things you agree with, or something.
which i've lost interest in. we're saying similar things (aside from insisting trivialization of things or removal of things that you decide you don't like because it makes Stealth more complex to perform but w/e) but you have a chip on your shoulder and can't see that.

Wow, such a subtle and clever jab you've concealed with lighter text. I am moved to re-evaluate the merits of my opinions.

If that's the best you're willing to do, yes, this conversation is over. I've already said that it is not my intention to simply trivialize the new mechanic, but players should have some means of contending with it and simply waiting while their multipliers expire is not a viable solution from my perspective. There is no good reason to balloon a 100-kill Exterminate into a 3-hour affair just because it's "more realistic." 

Still, don't try to pass this off as though I'm simply exploiting a discussion for bumps when I've repeatedly asked you for clarification on your perspective that you simply refuse to give for whatever reason.

Good day, sir/ma'am.

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Since we can't move dead bodies, I think it makes a bit of sense for corrosive damage to completely destroy the bodies.

Other than that, I don't have any problems what so ever with all the other things like enemy pathing. I have previously said that the stealth changes heavily favor Ivara. Also because I main Ivara that I can't objectively say the changes are good or bad. The only other thing I would like is some kind of in-game incentive to play stealthy. This won't stop me from playing stealth as I like it and the changes, but it would be nice to have incentives.

Under the previous circumstances, pathing wasn't an issue. What gets annoying is when you're picking off the blokes in the back and someone further ahead starts turning repeated 360-degree circles because the group bunched too closely together or the pathing is bouncing off of a pipe, causing them to turn back and see the corpse that they otherwise had no reason to suspect was there.

Or when you run into Drahk Masters. Good luck maintaining your multiplier unless you happen to be carrying something that can reliably wipe both the master and the two Drahks in an instant.

The incentive we had before was the XP multiplier, which was really useful for farming standing or power-ranking gear on your own. Maybe we just need a new incentive, but I feel that the corpse detection implementation has damaged stealth without really contributing anything beneficial.

Personally, I would like it if they revamped enemy behaviors while idle and not in-combat so that it facilitated slightly faster and smoother stealth gameplay that wasn't so far removed from normal combat pacing. I don't really see how they could do that, though.

[DiabolusUrsus]

12 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I found out something interesting about the nully bubbles.  If you throw a Pox in their path, it will not alert the nullies at all while getting rid of the bubble.  I double tested last night just to be sure.  Each time the Nullies walked right into them, lost their bubbles, and died.  All without being alerted.  So, the Pox is your friend for Stealth missions.  :D  Happy Hunting Tenno!

edit:  I can safely assume that the Mutalist Cernos can do the same thing if shot just outside the bubble. 

I'm assuming the Torid would work as well, until it gets inevitably patched.