Pay 2 Win? Yes And No (My Thoughts)

[Mr.ElevenXI]

This is just MY opinion and I don't mean to offend the DE's in anyway or anyone.

 

I believe that this game is a pay 2 win game. I shall explain why. A lot of people are saying it is not a pay 2 win however I see it is at times.

 

1. Higher mastery gets you stronger weapons (mastery 7 clan dojo), you need a lot of warframe slots / inventory slots to do this and how do you get them? Buy them.

 

2. Potato/Supercharge - I have only received the orokin catalyst/reactors blue prints once through a special event alert from update 8 which is when I first started the game roughly. Been 3 weeks and I have not seen them come up again. I have bought a few which makes a big difference. 30 - 60 mod capacity? win

 

3. Winning the game - Pay to win doesn't necessarily mean you win against another player. You are winning the game faster and easier than someone who doesn't pay. How I see it is just like any free2play rpg a player can pay2win buying enhancement core protectors or whatnot but a player who doesn't pay can still achieve this over a long term.

 

4. Efficiency - You get things faster when you pay for it.

 

However, the DE's have made it so you can farm for everything which I thought was extremely bold and brave of them to do for a free to play game, however as I started straight away I knew what was required. In the end you won't have room to get everything unless you put in some money to the game to buy the slots.

 

You don't have to pay to play the game and can still enjoy/win the game by unlocking all the missions.

 

I love this game and become a founder because I believe that this game has superb potential in the future and want to support them truly. I really wish that they do consider that paying for inventory slots can be somewhat improved.

 

One last point, I've read on forums people said they don't want PvP because it will become a pay 2 win game, it kinda already is + the training room if that is not PvP I don't know what it is. (One of them PvP supporters)

 

Feel free to voice out your opinions I love just having random chats about things just to see others perspectives. 

Edited July 2, 2013 by Mr.ElevenXI

[krisp]

"Pay2win" in common usage implies paying benefits that are not achievable in any other way, that directly impact gameplay.

Warframe has no such thing. Even some purely cosmetic weapon skins are obtainable by playing.

1. Higher mastery gets you stronger weapons (mastery 7 clan dojo), you need a lot of warframe slots / inventory slots to do this and how do you get them? Buy them.

You only need 2 warframe slots and 4 weapon slots to get to mastery level 9. Don't confuse need with want.

Edited July 2, 2013 by krisp

[X3Evanescence]

Hoho.... In terms of pay to win, you have made a valid point there about slots. Potato alerts are basically RnG, and apparently it isn't on our favor right now. Regarding leveling many weapons, there are people who sell and buy weapons whilst training them all to 30 for the sake of mastery. Slots are not a must. Basically I do not think this is as pay-to-win as you have described, but yes, it does lean towards those who pay money to obtain stuff, but that is expected of a game, isn't it? I don't mind this though... I think this thread will have a lot of disagreements IMO.

I am basically neutral to everything, this is just my 2 cents.

Regards

-Evanescence

[Angius]

You can sell weapons/warframes. Sell one, assemble another, level it up to 30, repeat.

[Aver]

1. you can sell and buy different gear, you don't have to keep everything you know so that isn't really a valid reason

 

2. I have been playing this game for a very long time and have only bought about 3 potatoes, yet every single one of my weapons and frames is potatoed.. so no you also don't have to really buy these just be patient.

 

3. there is no wining atm, this game is very incomplete so this doesn't really make much sense

 

4. well... yea that's the point isn't it? your tired of waiting or farming or whatever it is you do in a game to get stuff so you decide to take the easy way out and buy it

 

im not going to say people who payed don't get more, because they do but as a f2p player you get enough plat to buy a slot or two, you can buy all the gear you want, you can get potato drops and forma from many different sources but for not paying your giving up the ability to hold all of these things at the same time. i don't really understand why instead of complaining thats not incentive to just pony over the 5 bucks for a bit of plat

Edited July 2, 2013 by Aver

[X3Evanescence]

1. you can sell and buy different gear, you don't have to keep everything you know so that isn't really a valid reason

 

2. I have been playing this game for a very long time and have only bought about 3 potatoes, yet every single one of my weapons and frames is potatoed.. so no you also don't have to really buy these just be patient.

 

3. there is no wining atm, this game is very incomplete so this doesn't really make much sense

 

4. well... yea that's the point isn't it? your tired of waiting or farming or whatever it is you do in a game to get stuff so you decide to take the easy way out and buy it

 

im not going to say people who payed don't get more, because they do but as a f2p player you get enough plat to buy a slot or two, you can buy all the gear you want, you can get potato drops and forma from many different sources but for not paying your giving up the ability to hold all of these things at the same time. i don't really understand why instead of complaining thats not incentive to just pony over the 5 bucks for a bit of plat

Basically this is my point that platinum does not make you "win". Platinum is basically for a short-cut method to progress on getting weapons and potatoes, slots, and cosmetic stuff. I don't see how platinum purchases guarantees the win. It is not given a label as free to play for pure show, as everything aside from slots and cosmetic stuff can be farmed in-game. It is basically patience and effort, effort is the way of the world. Not meaning any offence or anything, just my humble opinion on the matter.

-Evanescence

[iPrevenge]

You do realize that if they made it so everything in the game was attainable, completely free, within a short period of time, no one at all would pay and Warframe would no longer be available... at all... You do realize this, right?  That money runs the world, not rainbows and unicorns?

[Zeke01234]

This is more about FTP than PTW.....heres how I see it... DE makes a bad &#! game they offer to let you play for free you don't like it ?? Uninstall no bigs you like it ?? keep on playing and have a blast... you Really like it spend a little cash and enjoy some benefits. I don't understand why there is so much angst about potatoes etc if you Enjoy the game enough to spend hundreds of hours playing it spend 5.00 to support it.

[sambarpowder]

Don't do this. Please. It's pointless.

[Mr.ElevenXI]

I just feel that people are saying it is not a pay 2 win game because you can get everything. But from experience playing many free 2 play mmorpgs people "refer" them as a pay 2 win, why? because other people over power them faster when they buy things? in the end over a long period of time a person who doesn't pay can still obtain the same gear anyway. 

 

My example is my friend and I. I became a founder, he is a non founder. I win quicker, it is going to take him much longer, would be the same for most other mmo's. He struggles a fair bit where as I just flew through things. He has to wait RNG knows how long for an orokin reactor, I got mine by paying and that first reward from update 8.

 

Another reason is I became pretty strong I started to farm mods with ease. That potato makes your frame/weapons so strong. I didn't even know about it. He is playing with no potatoed frame/weapons. There was a really good point I read on the forum where someone said the game is too easy because new players just get carried. I myself am a culprit of this and if it wasn't people including myself carrying my friend he would have a pretty hard time. I struggled to solo Saturn! until I found out what supercharging did which allowed me to place in more mods xD

 

Yes I agree the slots are a desire of luxury. However my opinion stands :D No hate please just my opinion you are free to voice yours! I still love the game just wanted to voice out my opinion, not cause hate <3

[Nazarel]

This is just MY opinion and I don't mean to offend the DE's in anyway or anyone.

 

I believe that this game is a pay 2 win game. I shall explain why. A lot of people are saying it is not a pay 2 win however I see it is at times.

 

1. Higher mastery gets you stronger weapons (mastery 7 clan dojo), you need a lot of warframe slots / inventory slots to do this and how do you get them? Buy them.

 

2. Potato/Supercharge - I have only received the orokin catalyst/reactors blue prints once through a special event alert from update 8 which is when I first started the game roughly. Been 3 weeks and I have not seen them come up again. I have bought a few which makes a big difference. 30 - 60 mod capacity? win

 

3. Winning the game - Pay to win doesn't necessarily mean you win against another player. You are winning the game faster and easier than someone who doesn't pay. How I see it is just like any free2play rpg a player can pay2win buying enhancement core protectors or whatnot but a player who doesn't pay can still achieve this over a long term.

 

4. Efficiency - You get things faster when you pay for it.

 

However, the DE's have made it so you can farm for everything which I thought was extremely bold and brave of them to do for a free to play game, however as I started straight away I knew what was required. In the end you won't have room to get everything unless you put in some money to the game to buy the slots.

 

You don't have to pay to play the game and can still enjoy/win the game by unlocking all the missions.

 

I love this game and become a founder because I believe that this game has superb potential in the future and want to support them truly. I really wish that they do consider that paying for inventory slots can be somewhat improved.

 

One last point, I've read on forums people said they don't want PvP because it will become a pay 2 win game, it kinda already is + the training room if that is not PvP I don't know what it is. (One of them PvP supporters)

 

Feel free to voice out your opinions I love just having random chats about things just to see others perspectives. 

1. You don't need to keep every frame/wep you level.

2. The RNG pool is diluted right now, they are aware and have commented on this (this is new with the last few updates).

3. No.

#InDEwetrust.

[Hybridon]

Black Ops II, people pay what, 80 dollars to buy it?

 

Warframe, people complain about it, even though everything is obtainable free.

 

Id really like to understand the logic.

 

I threw in my money cause I got myself playing this much more than any game I payed for, or at least at the same level of hours spent. Id love to understand ones logic, when the objective of the game is to help the team, where is the pay to win?

 

You dont get more for killing more, the exp is shared.

 

Stop whining and drop in a couple of bucks, for gods sake.

[JariWeis]

Pay 2 Win means that you pay for items that can directly make you win and cannot be obtained otherwise.

Warframe lacks this completely.

If anything, this game is P4C.

Pay 4 Convenience.

[X3Evanescence]

I just feel that people are saying it is not a pay 2 win game because you can get everything. But from experience playing many free 2 play mmorpgs people "refer" them as a pay 2 win, why? because other people over power them faster when they buy things? in the end over a long period of time a person who doesn't pay can still obtain the same gear anyway.

My example is my friend and I. I became a founder, he is a non founder. I win quicker, it is going to take him much longer, would be the same for most other mmo's. He struggles a fair bit where as I just flew through things. He has to wait RNG knows how long for an orokin reactor, I got mine by paying and that first reward from update 8.

Another reason is I became pretty strong I started to farm mods with ease. That potato makes your frame/weapons so strong. I didn't even know about it. He is playing with no potatoed frame/weapons. There was a really good point I read on the forum where someone said the game is too easy because new players just get carried. I myself am a culprit of this and if it wasn't people including myself carrying my friend he would have a pretty hard time. I struggled to solo Saturn! until I found out what supercharging did which allowed me to place in more mods xD

Yes I agree the slots are a desire of luxury. However my opinion stands :D No hate please just my opinion you are free to voice yours! I still love the game just wanted to voice out my opinion, not cause hate <3

Don't worry, no hate intended. =)

I am still a firm believer in my motto: Effort is the way of the world.

I work tirelessly as I know that I will one day be rewarded for all I have done. Yes, progressing fast by paying and obtaining supercharges are basically better in your opinion, but for me, I see things differently.

I myself could be described like your friend, who struggled due to the amount of grinding required. Yes, I struggled too, but I still worked hard nevertheless, with a very clear goal in mind to farm at least "X" resources by a particular day.

The feeling when I have finally grinded enough for me to build the weapon I desire, that sense of satisfaction and achievement, that is something that no money can buy.

This is the purpose, by stubbornly not paying initially just to progress, I have had a most rewarding experience playing with friendly Warframe friends, interacting with them, working with them, helping one another in unfavorable situations.... Those are experiences I will never forget. What money can never buy, the sense of being rewarded for your hard work after playing.

Paying makes you progress faster, but it takes away the satisfaction, this is why there are so many people in the forums complaining about the game having no challenge. Fact is, they never challenged themselves from the start in the first place.

This is my opinion on the matter.

Regards

-Evanescence

Edited July 2, 2013 by X3Evanescence

[Onbashira]

I don't think PAY2WIN is really applicable in a PVE environment.  It doesn't effect my gameplay how someone acquired his gun.  Some guy buying a potatoed Kunai on Mercury doesn't butt devastate me because he's not an obstacle in my way.

Although Potatoes should be more available to f2p that's being worked on with the rng I think.  And even with a potato you have to grind out all the mods to make that energy worth it.

[Mr.ElevenXI]

Don't worry, no hate intended. =)

I am still a firm believer in my motto: Effort is the way of the world.

I work tirelessly as I know that I will one day be rewarded for all I have done. Yes, progressing fast by paying and obtaining supercharges are basically better in your opinion, but for me, I see things differently.

I myself could be described like your friend, who struggled due to the amount of grinding required. Yes, I struggled too, but I still worked hard nevertheless, with a very clear goal in mind to farm at least "X" resources by a particular day.

The feeling when I have finally grinded enough for me to build the weapon I desire, that sense of satisfaction and achievement, that is something that no money can buy.

This is the purpose, by stubbornly not paying initially just to progress, I have had a most rewarding experience playing with friendly Warframe friends, interacting with them, working with them, helping one another in unfavorable situations.... Those are experiences I will never forget. What money can never buy, the sense of being rewarded for your hard work after playing.

Paying makes you progress faster, but it takes away the satisfaction, this is why there are so many people in the forums complaining about the game having no challenge. Fact is, they never challenged themselves from the start in the first place.

This is my opinion on the matter.

Regards

-Evanescence

I congratulate you on your hard work and you truly deserve it. You earned it yourself and should be loud and proud :D I too have farmed all my Frames/Weapons and very satisfied with myself I have waited all the build times as well. I was against buying something you could get for free in game like a lot of people. I did become a founder however which got me some platinum and I took it as I really want to show my support to the DE's of Warframe which gave me left overs for things I could buy. And like most I have that desire to collect everything I farm. Such a waste to let it go, a want over a need indeed. 

 

Thank you to everyone who put in their time and effort in voicing your opinions I enjoyed reading most of them! I am currently a Marketing student and love seeing how consumers view their products/service. I hope to get into the gaming industry in marketing and just wanted to see how things are viewed by other people who enjoy online games.

 

Happy gaming everyone!

[Krate]

I think it's hard to play the game if you don't spend at least a little bit of money for inventory slots.

[gell]

OP, you're confusing a lot of convenience for "winning." While inconvenient, you can get mastery way up without buying weapon slots. Yes, the downside is that you don't get to keep a giant arsenal of weapons and frames, but paying doesn't get you there exclusively, in fact, it doesn't help at all really.

 

If you want to present the case of pay2win, you need to make cases that are exclusive to paying, where non-payers would not be able to do so in a relatively feasible time.

 

I would ammend krisp's definition with that in mind, where he said pay2win, "implies paying benefits that are not achievable in any other way." I would add, "...in a reasonable amount of time." Of course "reasonable" is debatable.

 

e.g. in a digital collectible card game I play, you can slowly earn in game cards by playing a lot. I play every day for about 15-60 minutes. At that rate, it would probably take me about 3 years to get one deck full of the rare cards (I have 3 rares). You can buy card packs with guaranteed rare cards, and some folks drop a few hundred dollars and get 50 of them. I consider this a pay2win system, at least to get to the top 100 ranking. Sure, you can get those cards by playing for free, but when the amount of time invested would need to be thousands of hours for someone who can spend some money to get the same, I consider it pay2win.

 

I don't think Warframe is pay2win, since the times are much shorter.

[CeePee]

Warframe is not a Pay to win game. Pay to win is exactly what the name suggests, a game where you can buy greater power with cash than free players can ever get.

 

Warframe does not have that. You can be equally strong compared to an all-out-cash-shop-user, but it just takes you longer to get there. And it doesn't even take ridiculously long to get to the "max".

[Cpl_Facehugger]

1. Higher mastery gets you stronger weapons (mastery 7 clan dojo), you need a lot of warframe slots / inventory slots to do this and how do you get them? Buy them.

Alternatively: Sell your level 30 gear and buy new gear. You retain the mastery you already earned.

 

2. Potato/Supercharge - I have only received the orokin catalyst/reactors blue prints once through a special event alert from update 8 which is when I first started the game roughly. Been 3 weeks and I have not seen them come up again. I have bought a few which makes a big difference. 30 - 60 mod capacity? win

Potatos are available free. They're just really rare and tied to RNG. They're working on this.

 

3. Winning the game - Pay to win doesn't necessarily mean you win against another player. You are winning the game faster and easier than someone who doesn't pay. How I see it is just like any free2play rpg a player can pay2win buying enhancement core protectors or whatnot but a player who doesn't pay can still achieve this over a long term.

That's kind of the point of F2P though. They have to encourage you to spend money.

 

4. Efficiency - You get things faster when you pay for it.

Again, that's kind of the point of F2P.

[Mr.ElevenXI]

OP, you're confusing a lot of convenience for "winning." While inconvenient, you can get mastery way up without buying weapon slots. Yes, the downside is that you don't get to keep a giant arsenal of weapons and frames, but paying doesn't get you there exclusively, in fact, it doesn't help at all really.

 

If you want to present the case of pay2win, you need to make cases that are exclusive to paying, where non-payers would not be able to do so in a relatively feasible time.

 

I would ammend krisp's definition with that in mind, where he said pay2win, "implies paying benefits that are not achievable in any other way." I would add, "...in a reasonable amount of time." Of course "reasonable" is debatable.

 

e.g. in a digital collectible card game I play, you can slowly earn in game cards by playing a lot. I play every day for about 15-60 minutes. At that rate, it would probably take me about 3 years to get one deck full of the rare cards (I have 3 rares). You can buy card packs with guaranteed rare cards, and some folks drop a few hundred dollars and get 50 of them. I consider this a pay2win system, at least to get to the top 100 ranking. Sure, you can get those cards by playing for free, but when the amount of time invested would need to be thousands of hours for someone who can spend some money to get the same, I consider it pay2win.

 

I don't think Warframe is pay2win, since the times are much shorter.

I totally agree with you, especially with that card game example you just gave. Really great examples with the timing and such which reminded me of another point. However I feel that the only reason people feel that this is not a p2w game is because it is much quicker and easier to achieve like you stated. but when it does come down to it people did pay to get it quicker plus this is a PVE game so there is really no competition therefore you are not winning "a person" but what im trying to voice out is you are paying to "win a game quicker" by spending a few bucks, which to me is somewhat the same thing in the end. much appreciated! I am not whining about it, I can afford to pay and I paid to show my support and love for the game. I don't know why people are saying I'm complaining or they don't just read lol.

[HaphazardLeek]

Greetings, I was in closed beta and didnt really like the game, but now I have come back and given it another shot. And to say the least I effing love it. This game is so great. Just passes the time playing with friends. Some might say there is a lot of farming but I dont even consider it farming because its just so much fun. But that being said there are some major draw backs.

As you said I agree it is pay to win. However this could be fixed so easily if the devs made the Orokin catalyst/reactor/forma more obtainable. Im just suggesting more frequent drops perhaps? But at the cost of needing more to build them, maybe a longer time for the build to complete.  Maybe more credits required to start the build. Maybe even the ability to purchase the prints outright for a lump some of credits, I am talking like 500k-1million credits because I understand that these items must bring in a great amount of money due to their extreme necessity in the game.

So that being said I hope I am not the only one who thinks this, and please dont hate on me for this opinion.

[Mr.ElevenXI]

I am starting to see why everyone believes it is "not" a pay2win game. You have all made excellent valid points! I also noticed a lot of founders have decided that it is not a pay2win game through observing this thread. And that a majority of people on forums are either founders or people who love to sell and buy new weapons just to rank up their mastery and repeat this option. I applaud you guys for your hardships. Many of my friends some who are founders and those who aren't also believe it is a pay2win game its just our opinion. We had a debate over this and it was pretty funny and interesting. Just wanted to see what you guys would think. Also another friend of mine who works and can afford to pay said "I so can't be bothered farming all that and if I really wanted to i'll just buy it" he believes it is a pay to win because after he too experience the greatness of potatoes he saw that they had reach power level 9000!!!!!

[Mr.ElevenXI]

Greetings, I was in closed beta and didnt really like the game, but now I have come back and given it another shot. And to say the least I effing love it. This game is so great. Just passes the time playing with friends. Some might say there is a lot of farming but I dont even consider it farming because its just so much fun. But that being said there are some major draw backs.

As you said I agree it is pay to win. However this could be fixed so easily if the devs made the Orokin catalyst/reactor/forma more obtainable. Im just suggesting more frequent drops perhaps? But at the cost of needing more to build them, maybe a longer time for the build to complete.  Maybe more credits required to start the build. Maybe even the ability to purchase the prints outright for a lump some of credits, I am talking like 500k-1million credits because I understand that these items must bring in a great amount of money due to their extreme necessity in the game.

So that being said I hope I am not the only one who thinks this, and please dont hate on me for this opinion.

No hate, your just voicing your opinion which is great! I am supporting the DE by becoming a founder however I too believe it is somewhat pay2notwinbutgetthingsquicker~

[gell]

The definition of pay2win is a bit subjective, because it relies on some subjective things (such as how long things take to get with time alone). Some parts of the definition are not debated, such as if you can pay for something free players can't get otherwise, but the aforementioned time cost is the debatable part.

 

Ultimately, what matters is if you feel like someone has an advantage over you, and you're not having fun in the mean time. Part of why I don't feel WF is pay2win is because I enjoy much of my time playing, and don't feel hindered by things like farming (I am pretty sensitive to farming, that is, I hate it, and I feel WF has a low amount of it).

 

The game does have a few issues though, and hopefully DE will sort them out. The glaive and Vauban are a bit iffy in terms of getting them for free (you need some good timing or luck). I have a fair amount of plat, and I like to have things early, so I did pay plat for those 2 things. As a bit of irony, I now have 3 glaive blueprints from the daily reward, but they did come a month or so later than when I bought it day 1. I don't feel I "won" anything by paying, but it sure was convenient, and I value that.