Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[-BM-Mitz]

I wanted to share how I found to use the new Ash more effectively since I see the rework is going rough for a lot of people (who bother writing in the forums at least).

Disclaimer: I agree with those who complain that BS is still sorta inactive in it's execution and that Ash can't kill as fast (which I think was the point of the rework) but this post is about learning to make use of what we have now and adapting.

Firstly, the build I found comfortable:

 

With BS's targeting extended to 50m and teleport roughly the same range, we can afford to go a little under for range. The playstyle I go for is keeping invis up (E. Siphon refunds Invis's energy drain for it's duration) and teleport often with BS only when there's a lot of mobs gathered around. The free slot is a personal preference as you can put more survivability, augment or power stats at your own desire.

What about damage you might ask, since targeting 3 times a single enemy is expensive and time consuming. Well, my solution is the COMBO COUNTER. Here's a sample build for it:

 

The idea is to sustain the combo counter since BS benefits from it. You can easily reach 2.5x or 3x and higher with this regularly and that'll make a single mark from bladestorm hit 3x as hard saving you the need to mark more than once and wasting time and energy. Even without Zenurik or Arcane Energize, I've never had any energy problems. Is the combo counter a pain to sustain? Nope, with this build you have to hit enemies ones every 25 seconds to sustain it. Personally I find that more than enough time considering the teleport-heavy playstyle.

Personally I use Arcane Trickery with Ash cause it can't be disspelled by nulls and it really helped a lot during the Corpus survival in sortie. Hope some found this useful and would give the rework another try.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Major_Phantom

[dandin3]

cool..

but with the time i t take target and active the blade storm . you better off use geltine prime with p range for faster and easyer kill.. 

but then agian / we need  good BS build.. and yours look great

[-BM-Mitz]

2 minutes ago, dandin3 said:

cool..

but with the time i t take target and active the blade storm . you better off use geltine prime with p range for faster and easyer kill.. 

but then agian / we need  good BS build.. and yours look great

It's a matter of swiping from left to right or reverse so you just go over each mob once. It's not as bothersome as it seems. I use it mostly when I'm surrounded as it's inconvenient to fight on multiple fronts or when the enemy has osprays and other annoying units to fight in melee. BS on this set up easily sustains 2.5-3x combo so it reliably kills AND gives a series of finisher attacks that can trigger Trickery which is value of itself.

[OtakuPizza]

ash Ulti should have been the ability to call out  clones that would execute blade storm automatically but to a certain range . just like how nekros ulti pulls out the dead .

SO the clones must scale off based on the enemies .

also having clones out consumes energy effieciency consumed over time.

Clones are mele only .

you get where i am going people .

Basically i think would be perfect ninja element if u integrate skill 1 2 3 into that concept.

How? well i wish that was my job

thinking about this concept gives me shivers cause possibility to manage you clones gives me nosebleed in excitement.

[p3z1]

- Swap out Organ Shatter for Relentless Combination (+counter per slash proc). Speeds up the counter, just in case they survive a hit
- Rising Storm augment, just a suggestion, to make the counter stay longer

But yes, it's a good build this one. Solid, and can be tweaked to an individual's preference

[-BM-Mitz]

3 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

- Swap out Organ Shatter for Relentless Combination (+counter per slash proc). Speeds up the counter, just in case they survive a hit
- Rising Storm augment, just a suggestion, to make the counter stay longer

But yes, it's a good build this one. Solid, and can be tweaked to an individual's preference

Relentless Combination won't scale off of BS procs and as for the nikana, I find the gap between 3x and 3.5x combo too big to jump on most missions. Even if mobs survive to contribute to it through bleed, I don't think it'll be that worth it. Will test it later on.

Rising storm is an option but it's not good worth for me cause it gives +3 secs unmodded so it'll give +5 secs with this build. I already have a combo lasting 25 secs and it's perfectly enough for every mission I've ran so far so I'd rather use the slot to save energy with Fatal Teleport or get extra armor vs infested's toxic attacks.

Thank you for the feedback.

[NativeKiller]

My personal build has 40% power strength, 124% range, 160% efficiency, and 200+% duration.

 

...Yeah, I just spam Smoke Screen and "Fatal Teleport + Covert Lethality". :3

Edited December 5, 2016 by NativeKiller

[-BM-Mitz]

12 minutes ago, NativeKiller said:

My personal build has 40% power strength, 124% range, 160% efficiency, and 200+% duration.

 

...Yeah, I just spam Smoke Screen and "Fatal Teleport + Covert Lethality". :3

Yeah that's neat but gets tedious to listen to (like exalted blade) so while effective, lacks the ability to kill large groups. If that's fine by you, have fun ^^

I personally aim to make use of as much of the skills as possible for a richer experience. It makes me almost feel the personality in a frame.

[LycanPT]

I don't really think new ash and effciency matches that well. People used Ash for a single ability which name was bladestorm, now ash has screen shaking storm that is sub par compared to the old one. Nevertheless his smokescreen is too short and his teleport even with augment is cluncky and won't execute enemies when you most need it. Ash was good at what he did, but he only did that, now not anymore RIP

[-BM-Mitz]

3 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

I don't really think new ash and effciency matches that well. People used Ash for a single ability which name was bladestorm, now ash has screen shaking storm that is sub par compared to the old one. Nevertheless his smokescreen is too short and his teleport even with augment is cluncky and won't execute enemies when you most need it. Ash was good at what he did, but he only did that, now not anymore RIP

Why not match with efficiency? Smoke Screen lasts 2/3 of loki's for 2/3 the cost so efficiency lets your Energy Siphon sustain the energy to cast it. You don't need to screen shake, just swipe from side to side ones to mark and you're done. It is sub-par compared to the old one's auto target and that's on purpose as the old one was WAY too good and a nerf was needed. I mean target through walls with invincibility and finisher damage AND bleed on it... I mean come one, anyone who expected that to not be nerfed is lying to themselves :/

Smoke Screen is something you get used to honestly. I find it a bit annoying at first but you get used to the tempo. Also Arcane Trickery helps ease the recasting needs.

Teleport is mostly fine for me, only issue is a newly made bug that doesn't trigger his augment on enemies who can only be finished from the back (moas and ancients) though I presume that'll be fixed in a near deployment.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Which is kinda redundant since you have to keep using extra energy to cast smokescreen, for this even more lackluster cutscene move, in both effect and cinematic. Isn't it ironic that a move that makes ash invisible is suggested for a move revolving around flashy cutscenes? Why keep the cutscenes then? Anyway, you're better off reserving the Smokescreen for melee and killing much more enemies.

Well, it has been suggested adding a toggle option to not make the WF invisible while using any form of invisibility. Kind like when you finish a mission and Shadowstep is still active (or when you are invisible and a boss cutscene happens). Ash IS a melee frame, like Excalibur, Valkyr, Inaros and Wukong.

[NativeKiller]

20 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

Yeah that's neat but gets tedious to listen to (like exalted blade) so while effective, lacks the ability to kill large groups. If that's fine by you, have fun ^^

I personally aim to make use of as much of the skills as possible for a richer experience. It makes me almost feel the personality in a frame.

I actually no longer use Ash except for taking out the Juggernaut with 'Fatal Teleport + Covert Lethality'.

 

...Not that I used him much in the first place, but yeah.

[LycanPT]

2 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

It's slower cause it was too good before, don't let that cloud your mind, DE slowly tries to remove powers like what BS was and I imagine ember would come soon after.

How exactly does it do less damage? It's still 2k per hit and still with forced bleed....

I get the problem with the interactivity but frankly I've neither seen nor come up with a decent suggestion for the fix :(

It does less damage because you can't mod for max power str anymore, ash had one of the last useful and rewarding high damage abilities.

Also "fix" is a missplaced word all around ash "rework" because if you want to fix a one trick poney you have to shift its strengths which didn't happen at all, some abilities of his received QoL buffs but the nerf to bladestorm leaves Ash with only 2 abilities: a short sub par invisibility and a teleport that stunlocks you and even with the augment fails often at performing the execution. So what makes ash remarkable now? There is no scenario where I can think ash is the go to frame:

If I want stealth (this concept makes me laugh since the stealth system in warframe only means invisibility) I take loki or ivara

If I want easy executions, I can take something like inaros with the bonus of being tanky and stunlocking everything in a cone

If I want DPS I would pick ash before, now I stick to mesa

Edited December 5, 2016 by LycanPT

[ThunderZsolt]

6 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I use it just fine honestly. you're overreacting. 

It takes a bit of adjustment compared to using the old room nuke, but it's definitely not useless or ineffective.

But you can just spam 3 instead of 4 for better results.

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash is just as powerful as he was pre-rework.

Yes, but old bladestorm did cost way less energy (17 attacks for 25 energy would translate 1,4 energy/mark instead of 15)

However, invis/teleport builds are even stronger now, because of the smoke screen changes, so I agree

6 hours ago, Artek94 said:

He's an Assassin so he does what Assassins do best - deals S#&$ ton of damage to a single target.

But he doesn't need bladestorm for that - teleport is better.

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

slash procs. Regardless this doesn't change a thing i've said. and i don't see the point of explaining why the changes did some good to people who've decided how they feel already.

instakill > slash procs. I've did a couple 40min+ survivals with ash last weekend, and my conclusion was that I would only ever use bladestorm on enemies which don't have a finisher animation (because DE knows why)

6 hours ago, NyxCrab said:

It's not dead, but it's really slow to use, especially when enemies get tankier so you have to wait out the marks to get 3 marks for maximum damage on like a corrupted bombard.

Or you could just fatal teleport said bomber for less than half of the energy, taking less than half the time.

All of you, I suggest to re-read the OP.

He said that Fatal teleport > bladestorm, because it costs less energy, takes less time to execute and is a guaranteed instakill with a CL dagger.

Not stuff like "Ash is bad" or "bladestorm is useless" which are you arguing against. Yes, Ash is good, and bladestorm has its uses, but there is no reason to mark enemies for bladestorm, when you can just execute them with teleport.

And the other gimmicks like "bodies disappear" a channeled finisher makes them disappear too, but with teleport you can use a dark dagger with augment, which replenishes energy and viral procs enemies for your team.

 

TLDR: bladestorm is redundant, even the devs know it but they couldn't come up with a good rework, so ended up nerfing bladestorm.

[LycanPT]

11 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

Why not match with efficiency? Smoke Screen lasts 2/3 of loki's for 2/3 the cost so efficiency lets your Energy Siphon sustain the energy to cast it. You don't need to screen shake, just swipe from side to side ones to mark and you're done. It is sub-par compared to the old one's auto target and that's on purpose as the old one was WAY too good and a nerf was needed. I mean target through walls with invincibility and finisher damage AND bleed on it... I mean come one, anyone who expected that to not be nerfed is lying to themselves :/

Smoke Screen is something you get used to honestly. I find it a bit annoying at first but you get used to the tempo. Also Arcane Trickery helps ease the recasting needs.

Teleport is mostly fine for me, only issue is a newly made bug that doesn't trigger his augment on enemies who can only be finished from the back (moas and ancients) though I presume that'll be fixed in a near deployment.

Well I would like you to go on that room with lvl 60+ (maybe even lower, ash is squishy as hell) enemies with you 2 sec invis build, target 18 targets with 3 marks each (which you can't due to blind rage reducing eff and the high costs per mark) and then you tell me how you almost pulled it off while I try to reanimate your corpse. Things seems simple at first look, but trust me I've tested my pre rework build and had to do a new one and in both scenarios ash is not effective anymore. His 4 was too good? You shoudl perhabs say his 4 was the only good in Ash

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Major_Phantom said:

I wanted to share how I found to use the new Ash more effectively since I see the rework is going rough for a lot of people (who bother writing in the forums at least).

Disclaimer: I agree with those who complain that BS is still sorta inactive in it's execution and that Ash can't kill as fast (which I think was the point of the rework) but this post is about learning to make use of what we have now and adapting.

This is my all purpose build:

Notes:

-I play melee, so I don't need power mods. My melee build is identical to yours.

- 'Rush' can be replaced by Armored agility or any parkour mod

-Enemy Sense slot can be replaced for an augment. I use Enemy Sense because I don't use companion, and if I do it's my loyal Huras without Animal Instinct, Enemy Sense allows me to pin point where the most enemies are so I can maneuver accordingly. It's also a must have for stealth missions. My usual replacement is Smoke Shadow for public runs on high level.

 

Combat is pretty straight forward: Go melee and get a good combo counter. If you run dry you Rage will keep you up, combine it with a few seconds of blocking to get energy without taking too much damage. Smoke Screen if you want to save energy or excape tight spots. Get used to reflex aim so you can sweep and mark targets quickly, Conclave is a good place to hone this particular skill.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Nazrethim

[-BM-Mitz]

14 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

If I want stealth (this concept makes me laugh since the stealth system in warframe only means invisibility) I take loki or ivara

If I want easy executions, I can take something like inaros with the bonus of being tanky and stunlocking everything in a cone

If I want DPS I would pick ash before, now I stick to mesa

So this game shouldn't be about options? Every role should have one frame only?

If I want stealth I can take loki, ivara or ash.

Easy executions? Ivara, equinox, valkyr, inaros, ash, excal etc...

DPS? Mirage, Equinox, Mesa, Nova, Ash etc...

Ash simply pulls a few aspects (stealth, finishers, melee focus) and mixes them in his kit. You can still use Ash for DPS if you bother keeping up your combo counter. That way you'll reliably not need to stack BS marks and simply swiping across the screen will kill all. Ash never needed max strength to perform well.

[LycanPT]

Just now, Major_Phantom said:

So this game shouldn't be about options? Every role should have one frame only?

If I want stealth I can take loki, ivara or ash.

Easy executions? Ivara, equinox, valkyr, inaros, ash, excal etc...

DPS? Mirage, Equinox, Mesa, Nova, Ash etc...

Ash simply pulls a few aspects (stealth, finishers, melee focus) and mixes them in his kit. You can still use Ash for DPS if you bother keeping up your combo counter. That way you'll reliably not need to stack BS marks and simply swiping across the screen will kill all. Ash never needed max strength to perform well.

Yeah I can really see myself building that combo counter when I mark 10 enemies and press 4 again only to find out all but 1 have been wiped by my teammates. What does ash combine? Do you really think a combo of subpar abilites make ash great at anything? Yes this game is about options but right now for the sake of efficient gameplay ash is out of the option for me and for those who only played ash for 1 purpose alone and only in certain situations, right now he doesn't even have that occasional use anymore

[-BM-Mitz]

9 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

Well I would like you to go on that room with lvl 60+ (maybe even lower, ash is squishy as hell) enemies with you 2 sec invis build, target 18 targets with 3 marks each (which you can't due to blind rage reducing eff and the high costs per mark) and then you tell me how you almost pulled it off while I try to reanimate your corpse. Things seems simple at first look, but trust me I've tested my pre rework build and had to do a new one and in both scenarios ash is not effective anymore. His 4 was too good? You shoudl perhabs say his 4 was the only good in Ash

Why the hell would you need 3 marks each? Why 2 sec invis? Did you read the OP? Are you trying to make the old Ash builds work with the rework cause that's not happening. That's why I've given sample builds and the combo counter strat...

You have 14-15 secs invis that your energy siphon sustains so no need to worry over it AND with the 2 combo mods on melee, you can sustain an easy 3x combo so you only need one mark per target to kill. I've been running endless with this build and sorties as well and it works great so I shared it. I'll go in your 60+ lv room, I'll see there's too many targets to kill individually and swipe across my screen ones for BS to mark all ones and kill them. Frankly I think trying to make the old style Ash builds work will not do well for you.

[-BM-Mitz]

5 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

This is my all purpose build:

-snip-

I don't like to rely on Rage on high levels as I find comfort in staying invis. I just don't trust Ash as that kind of tank. It is a solid default build though, props for realizing Steel Fiber gives more effective HP than Redirection.

[LycanPT]

1 minute ago, Major_Phantom said:

Why the hell would you need 3 marks each? Why 2 sec invis? Did you read the OP? Are you trying to make the old Ash builds work with the rework cause that's not happening. That's why I've given sample builds and the combo counter strat...

You have 14-15 secs invis that your energy siphon sustains so no need to worry over it AND with the 2 combo mods on melee, you can sustain an easy 3x combo so you only need one mark per target to kill. I've been running endless with this build and sorties as well and it works great so I shared it. I'll go in your 60+ lv room, I'll see there's too many targets to kill individually and swipe across my screen ones for BS to mark all ones and kill them. Frankly I think trying to make the old style Ash builds work will not do well for you.

That's what I said, old ash doesn't work anymore so no damage, and combo counter pls spare me, now we go in that same room, and you will try to keep that combo counter up while I keep my tonkor singing. your problem is you're thinking solo, the whole combination of ash kit and the different variables of the game is what makes ash so weak

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Major_Phantom said:

I don't like to rely on Rage on high levels as I find comfort in staying invis. I just don't trust Ash as that kind of tank. It is a solid default build though, props for realizing Steel Fiber gives more effective HP than Redirection.

That's why I use block, and only when I get an isolated, non-oneshot-capable enemy. I've done this at lvl 150 in void. Clear everything with a bladestorm but leave a single lancer alive, use his gunfire to restore your energy. Oh, and on closer inspection, I use Life Strike.

I can't wait for Warframe Riven mods, I would gladly kick my remaining shields if I get something like 300% extra health plus some armor.

[-BM-Mitz]

11 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

Yeah I can really see myself building that combo counter when I mark 10 enemies and press 4 again only to find out all but 1 have been wiped by my teammates. What does ash combine? Do you really think a combo of subpar abilites make ash great at anything? Yes this game is about options but right now for the sake of efficient gameplay ash is out of the option for me and for those who only played ash for 1 purpose alone and only in certain situations, right now he doesn't even have that occasional use anymore

So you build the combo with just BS then? You know what, lets drop it here.

We find different use of different frames. I found use for Ash and I'm happy with it and you don't so you moved to other frames. That's fine. "Efficient gameplay" is a term I'm way too tired of hearing as most gear can be made decently viable with enough effort. I see your points and I have nothing more to say as we don't play alike for me to show you how to get use out of Ash.

[-BM-Mitz]

Just now, LycanPT said:

That's what I said, old ash doesn't work anymore so no damage, and combo counter pls spare me, now we go in that same room, and you will try to keep that combo counter up while I keep my tonkor singing. your problem is you're thinking solo, the whole combination of ash kit and the different variables of the game is what makes ash so weak

I've not played solo Ash since The Second Dream was released actually XD

So you're telling me if there's one person with Tonkor, I cannot hit a mob ones every 25 seconds? That sounds ludicrous.

In an ideal team comp, you need 1-2 damage dealers. Anything more will lead to a kill starving and won't make good use of them. If one of them is an Ash, he can easily find his way. "Sustaining the combo" means hitting a melee or BS ones in 25 seconds for god's sake. Do you really find it hard? Some missions like Akkad will pose the problem you name BUT most missions will let me freely run around and do my job even with a team filled with Synoid Simulors (have tried it actually on a grineer sortie survival).

I digress though, I can see why you'd like other frames. It's more of a "rush to get most kills" kind of thing right? Well if that's the case then that's fine. Play as you wish. I just tried to show off what I found works really well for me as a DPS character with the new rework, sorry it doesn't fit your playstyle.

[LycanPT]

39 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

So you build the combo with just BS then? You know what, lets drop it here.

We find different use of different frames. I found use for Ash and I'm happy with it and you don't so you moved to other frames. That's fine. "Efficient gameplay" is a term I'm way too tired of hearing as most gear can be made decently viable with enough effort. I see your points and I have nothing more to say as we don't play alike for me to show you how to get use out of Ash.

So you suggest building your combo with another subpar feature that is melee in warframe? Idk man if you even have any experience with games. You may have your way of gameplay and be happy about it, that's not what I am debating here. I also see people using their own fun way of playing the game only so others like me have to pull their weight. The countless times I play wukong in survival sorties just to pick up that funny guy who thought he would be fine bringing his kubrow and not bothering even using a vitality mod on his/her *insert squishy frame here*. Just because you have fun and like the way you play doesn't mean you're being a plus to the team, and I am tired of that selfish thinking that led ash to this current state, because that time where ash killed all enemies in the last long term defence you done was pretty sweet, but when he does it at levels you can kinda pull your own weight then suddenly he is cancer to gameplay.