Kuva rolls reminded me of something...

[Otakuwolf]

I know this kind of "RNG rolls" are common among many online games but...

Before, i remembered my first online RPG, Spiral Knights, and i thought about it's "forge" or whatever it was callen thing that allowed players to roll random extra attributes on theyr gear. Like the Riven mods It was kinda horrific too because rolls were also 100% RNG based with no chance to "lock in" what you like and what not, but even in a microtrans traphole like Spiral Knights there was something "done right" about extra stats rolls onto equipment gear compared to the Warframe:

1) The roll price was stock. Sure, farming energy was much more painful than farming kuva right now, but you were guaranteed to get the amount you needed within a precise amount of time, energy market prices permitting for sure, but the variations were small and took a while before the resource cost started to get inflated too much (and then came in the sales). Kuva doesen't do that because with every roll the price increases, so it's much more time consuming and the game even punishes you if you don't get what you want because you'll have to spend more time if you want to try your luck again.

2) You could choose how many stats to roll, Pay X to roll one stat, pay Y to roll two, pay Z to roll three. In Warframe you roll everything for an ever increasing amount of kuva, so on top of not being allowed to choose how much you want to change the game also slaps you in the face for it.

3) You could choose WHAT GEAR to roll for stats. I understand DE doesen't want everyone to go around with a Deus Ex Machina Soma but what's better ? Give to the fanbase something to make theyr gear feel more complete and gain theyr support, or base everything entirely on luck and piss off most of it ?

I know this doesen't bring anything new to the table that hasn't been sayd already about riven mods, but that moment i remembered about Spiral Knights made me think that for how bad of a F2P MMO it was at least was doing something right compared to Warframe, and it's a bit disheartening since i love this game (most played after TF2 with 3k hours so far) and don't really want to see it going down this path.

[(PSN)joe03827]

aah , Spieal knights , i remember its gae , i used to like it but ..... 

 

[VoidProdigy]

Ah, another fellow knight.

Seems like we both are on the same road in the same game, set for the same doom with the same cause.

[Trichouette]

I want a "pay X kuva to lock that stat" feature...

Like you pay 3k kuva to lock a stat, then pay 6k to lock another one etc..

 

[NinjaKitsune56]

22 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

I know this kind of "RNG rolls" are common among many online games but...

Before, i remembered my first online RPG, Spiral Knights, and i thought about it's "forge" or whatever it was callen thing that allowed players to roll random extra attributes on theyr gear. Like the Riven mods It was kinda horrific too because rolls were also 100% RNG based with no chance to "lock in" what you like and what not, but even in a microtrans traphole like Spiral Knights there was something "done right" about extra stats rolls onto equipment gear compared to the Warframe:

1) The roll price was stock. Sure, farming energy was much more painful than farming kuva right now, but you were guaranteed to get the amount you needed within a precise amount of time, energy market prices permitting for sure, but the variations were small and took a while before the resource cost started to get inflated too much (and then came in the sales). Kuva doesen't do that because with every roll the price increases, so it's much more time consuming and the game even punishes you if you don't get what you want because you'll have to spend more time if you want to try your luck again.

2) You could choose how many stats to roll, Pay X to roll one stat, pay Y to roll two, pay Z to roll three. In Warframe you roll everything for an ever increasing amount of kuva, so on top of not being allowed to choose how much you want to change the game also slaps you in the face for it.

3) You could choose WHAT GEAR to roll for stats. I understand DE doesen't want everyone to go around with a Deus Ex Machina Soma but what's better ? Give to the fanbase something to make theyr gear feel more complete and gain theyr support, or base everything entirely on luck and piss off most of it ?

I know this doesen't bring anything new to the table that hasn't been sayd already about riven mods, but that moment i remembered about Spiral Knights made me think that for how bad of a F2P MMO it was at least was doing something right compared to Warframe, and it's a bit disheartening since i love this game (most played after TF2 with 3k hours so far) and don't really want to see it going down this path.

I've come up with my own policy on Rivens... if I don't get a decent (to me) stat arrangement by the 10th cycle, it'll be the first one to go once I reach capacity.

...So far, I've gotten some good stats for mine before then... got 11 open spots for Rivens to go.

[El_Chino]

Devs already stated the motives of why all the rng... First, they don't want you to be able to pick the weapon the riven is for, because everyone would go for meta weapons and the purpose of the system is to bring new life to underestimated and old weapons. Second, they don't want you to be able to directly pick stats, and the cost to reroll is high because they want you to experiment with whichever stats and weapon you get.

I personally find it perfect and respect what they want and aim to with the system. The only stats I reroll usually are faction damage, and keep whatever is usable with my gimmicky weps, even if its not multishot, base damage, crits (the meta basically).

[Coaa]

I don't personally agree with locking stats. Everyone is just gonna roll til +dmg +crit or +crit dmg is on it and lock it. Thus increasing the chance at a god roll. The randomness keeps people pushing forward with the current system or trading for someone elses.

If they were to allow it, it should be something obnoxious like 20k to lock a stat. I feel this could be abused so easily.

[Otakuwolf]

31 minutes ago, El_Chino said:

Devs already stated the motives of why all the rng... First, they don't want you to be able to pick the weapon the riven is for, because everyone would go for meta weapons and the purpose of the system is to bring new life to underestimated and old weapons. Second, they don't want you to be able to directly pick stats, and the cost to reroll is high because they want you to experiment with whichever stats and weapon you get.

I personally find it perfect and respect what they want and aim to with the system. The only stats I reroll usually are faction damage, and keep whatever is usable with my gimmicky weps, even if its not multishot, base damage, crits (the meta basically).

Devs should encourage players on playing with non meta weapons, not force them, and that's why the "can't choose which weapon you want" is wrong, because it's not an option, there is no choice there. If i could have chosen what weapon to have a riven mod for i would certainly also opt for a Panthera, which is not a meta weapon at all, yet i do enjoy it a lot... but i couldn't choose it even if it's a non meta weapon. Plus the fact there are rivens for meta weapons (which for how lesser powerfu can be still prove to be more effective than powerful mods on suboptimal weapons anyway) beats the purpouse of revisiting old weapons, just incentivizes players to play and hope they get a riven for what they want instead.

Secondly, as someone already explained in a video i watched (You should check it out too, look for the vid by Brozime "Riven mods are bad for Warframe") i don't need to experiment something like extra reload speed at the expense of damage against a certain faction to know those are worthless stats on a non-meta weapon like a Tetra.

I think this system still has a lot of flaws that need to be adressed, i understand the Devs intentions but considering the implementation it even beats theyr own purpouse.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Otakuwolf

[El_Chino]

11 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

Devs should encourage players on playing with non meta weapons, not force them, and that's why the "can't choose which weapon you want" is wrong, because it's not an option, there is no choice there. If i could have chosen what weapon to have a riven mod for i would certainly also opt for a Panthera, which is not a meta weapon at all, yet i do enjoy it a lot... but i couldn't choose it even if it's a non meta weapon. Plus the fact there are rivens for meta weapons (which for how lesser powerfu can be still prove to be more effective than powerful mods on suboptimal weapons anyway) beats the purpouse of revisiting old weapons, just incentivizes players to play and hope they get a riven for what they want instead.

Secondly, as someone already explained in a video i watched (You should check it out too, look for the vid by Brozime "Riven mods are bad for Warframe") i don't need to experiment something like extra reload speed at the expense of damage against a certain faction to know those are worthless stats on a non-meta weapon like a Tetra.

I think this system still has a lot of flaws that need to be adressed, i understand the Devs intentions but considering the implementation it even beats theyr own purpouse.

I don't feel forced in any way. I sold the rivens I didn't wanted, and bought the rivens I did want, that's what the trade is for in this game, and don't say you never get good deals because that will only mean you never really try to. Bought all my stuff between 20-40p, rerolled to something useful (for someone else) then sold it for a bit of profit and re-bought to try again on a stat I wanted.

Rivens are common... After 2 months everyone will be selling them cheap because they will want to have room for what they want. I've got bad rolls on many, and ended up turning them into endo, and that is fine, I know things are and how they will be.

You, along with many others, just need time to chill... Warframe is not about Rivens, nor is fun because of them. Just play, have fun, do the sorties daily, you will get a crap ton of stuff eventually. And getting something awesome by chance feels really nice, if you were playing the game relaxed.

[Otakuwolf]

1 hour ago, El_Chino said:

I don't feel forced in any way. I sold the rivens I didn't wanted, and bought the rivens I did want, that's what the trade is for in this game, and don't say you never get good deals because that will only mean you never really try to. Bought all my stuff between 20-40p, rerolled to something useful (for someone else) then sold it for a bit of profit and re-bought to try again on a stat I wanted.

Let me ask you this then: wouldn't it been better for you to have chosen right away the rivens you did want without having to trade for those ? Wouldn't you have saved time and plats this way ?

1 hour ago, El_Chino said:

Rivens are common... After 2 months everyone will be selling them cheap because they will want to have room for what they want. I've got bad rolls on many, and ended up turning them into endo, and that is fine, I know things are and how they will be.

Rivens will get common, that for sure, but the "good rolls" are another story. It's kinda like saying "Food is abundant" but only a small portion is actually edible, Is not a matter of quantity but quality, and if in order to have a decent amount of "good rolled" rivens you need dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of those mods and respective rolls it's still a mathematic proof that something's wrong with the system.

Also, if you know how things are. then wouldn't you want things to be better for you and those you play with ?

1 hour ago, El_Chino said:

You, along with many others, just need time to chill... Warframe is not about Rivens, nor is fun because of them. Just play, have fun, do the sorties daily, you will get a crap ton of stuff eventually. And getting something awesome by chance feels really nice, if you were playing the game relaxed.

Sure, Warframe is not about rivens but those could undoubtfully provide a significant improvement to one's arsenal or indeed "encourage to play with out of meta weapons"... IF they actually provide the right stats, but considering how much randomness those mods have, the chance to get what you really need (because let's not forget, the numbers are also random, not just the kind of stats) to make a suboptimal weapon good enough to be a worth alternative to meta ones is miniscule... unless of course you're comfortable spending time and plats because of a faulty system that even a scam F2P game like Spiral Knights managed to do better.

Sure, you can trade, but again, wouldn't it be better if you can save plats and time and just get the weapons you want as a riven and maybe have a tiny bit of control on the rolls to have an actual sense of progress ?

It's not a matter of "chilling" but providing critiques to improve the game, because if all we do is just say "is good as it is" and then have to resort on trading to get something somewhat decent, the game will never be really better and will instead get worse. Riven mods today ? Maybe tomorrow will be a whole new weapon, or a warframe, can you imagine a whole Warframe with 100% random stats ? I don't even want to think about it, sure you can always trade but why have to if we can ask for a better system ?.

Also let me remind you: THIS is one of the reasons Spiral Knights was considered "P2W": no control over stats roll and having to pay luckyer players for that shock / ice proof coat or get 90% more chances to get butt#*($%%@ when you play against high level storm / snow fiends, and even sayd stats roll system was marginally better there.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Otakuwolf

[Skaleek]

Reminded me of my soul dying.

[El_Chino]

Developers want you to play the game, to play it without getting bored quickly, you have to set long term goals. Your dream riven, could be one of those goals. Also, it's their game, play it or not... The system is there, you can use it as devs planned it for their game, or simply ignore it. You do have choices.

[Cappucchino]

I think about the 3) one, if you can choose directly which weapon you want to use Riven on, it may be too broken. I have an idea about it, which after you finish the challenge the Riven mods will random "3" weapons for you to choose similar to Void relic rewards random the reward after you finished the mission. "Common" rate for "Strong" disposition weapons, "Uncommon" rate for "Neutral" disposition weapons and "Rare" rate for "Faint" disposition weapons. Atleast if you get all "3" "Strong" disposition weapons from randomizing, you can still choose which one you prefer the most of 3. For example, you got Dera, Vulklok and Grinlok (which all 3 "Strong" dispositions), you can select which one you prefer most (for myself if I got these three, I will choose Grinlok).

[Otakuwolf]

4 hours ago, Cappucchino said:

I think about the 3) one, if you can choose directly which weapon you want to use Riven on, it may be too broken. I have an idea about it, which after you finish the challenge the Riven mods will random "3" weapons for you to choose similar to Void relic rewards random the reward after you finished the mission. "Common" rate for "Strong" disposition weapons, "Uncommon" rate for "Neutral" disposition weapons and "Rare" rate for "Faint" disposition weapons. Atleast if you get all "3" "Strong" disposition weapons from randomizing, you can still choose which one you prefer the most of 3. For example, you got Dera, Vulklok and Grinlok (which all 3 "Strong" dispositions), you can select which one you prefer most (for myself if I got these three, I will choose Grinlok).

That would be also better than the current system