Test Before You Talk

[tnccs215]

13 minutes ago, Thebel said:

Again talking about solo is pointless because no one will care what you use and most if not all frames will work fine for solo missions with the right build. Banshee can do survivals just fine with a silence build to provide cc and reduce the odds of her being hit. Obviously a well round frame like Oberon would be better but then even better than that is just an invisible frame. But the point still stands no one cares what you do solo because that has no bearing on a squad. In a squad is where you have meta frames and build come into play. And so say his idea of a core 4 doesn't matter? That's not entirely true when there is an obvious meta in the game, when you go to squad recruiting, there is basically a common list of frames needed/ wanted with certain missions. If you looked at most of them I'm pretty sure you'll see at least, Trin, Frost, and Nova come up quite often. Why? Because they are the best at what they do, they fill a role so well that most of the time other frames can't compete.

I understand the OP wants to say that Oberon is a good frame, and he's a good frame for him but in the meta, he isn't a good frame, hence why you don't have squads looking for him. We aren't saying he can't use Oberon, but we do want him to acknowledge that in this current meta Oberon is not considered good. Obviously the meta changes every time things do, so maybe one day he could be good in the meta, but currently he isn't.

But in that case, we have to note:

Is that an healthy meta? 

Truth is, having such a strong and stable meta is not healthy for any game. It blocks variability and reduces gameplay to a strict, constant chore. More, if a squad of 4 frames can do anything, than what's the point of having any other frames?

That is, perhaps the problem isn't Oberon's quality in comparision to the meta, but the meta itself. Perhaps it's Nova, Frost, Loki and Trinity that are too powerful, instead of Oberon not being powerful enough.

Taking how powercreep and meta led to the ludicrous increase of what can be considered high-level, I think that is a possibility well worth considering.

If you want my opinion, this leads to the core question that plagues warframe in all ways, and the core, unanswered question that leads to this deep divide in the community in "pro-buffs" and "pro-nerfs":

"What should be the right difficulty progression?"

That is, what can should be defined as "early game, mid-game and late game"? DE, in their "we want players to play the game however they want" policy, has systematically refused to answer to this. but the truth is, this things must be defined-- else we will have people defending that a frame instantly killing level 9999 enemies is perfectly reasonable, and others saying that a frame that can't survive past-level 50 is "in a good position right now".

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

than what's the point of having any other frames?

I am going to assume you mean "then," in which case, the solution is finding them other roles or offering side-grades. 

The problem is Oberon. He offers nothing to the meta, when he should be working as a side grade to Blessing Trinity,

An ult scaling infinitely is perfectly reasonable. 

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Dang. We're at 8 pages now. This is getting kinda difficult to keep up with. Well, if you want me to read something, you may have to quote or mention me.

A lot of you guys want me to do certain missions and stuff with Oberon to prove what I'm trying to say about his viability. What I'll do is this. I'll let you record yourself taking on a challenging mission with whatever warframe and stuff you wish, then I can try to do just a well with Oberon. First reason why is it'll take a lot of time for me to do everything, especially with my play time limitations, so I want to avoid doing requests which end up pointless. Second, if you can't do it yourself with your warframe of choice, you shouldn't expect me to do it with Oberon. The reason behind that should be obvious. Third, anyone can claim to do something, but they're often lying. Someone told me they're good with Banshee, Zephyr is bad, and that their Banshee could outperform my Zephyr. We went up against level 50 enemies, and he got downed twice, while I didn't get downed. It's like all bark and no bite, but there's just a really weak bite. Fourth and finally, people will be able to judge what you used and how you used it. That way, if you use something cheap or broken, or make an unfair expectation, you can easily be called out for it.

I'm eagerly waiting to see your vids. I'll, of course, record my attempt. (Also, you don't need to show the whole mission. Just 3 waves, 5 minutes, or so.)

Edited December 5, 2016 by (PS4)Darth-Escar

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

DE, in their "we want players to play the game however they want" policy, has systematically refused to answer to this. but the truth is, this things must be defined--

In a way, I view it as already defined by DE's statement, "we want players to play the game however they want".  What I mean is that for DE to specifically define what endgame, etc should be would in turn conflict with that statement.  That's just my way of looking at it, and the issue has been discussed more than enough in other places.   

[Thebel]

8 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

But in that case, we have to note:

Is that an healthy meta? 

Truth is, having such a strong and stable meta is not healthy for any game. It blocks variability and reduces gameplay to a strict, constant chore. More, if a squad of 4 frames can do anything, than what's the point of having any other frames?

That is, perhaps the problem isn't Oberon's quality in comparision to the meta, but the meta itself. Perhaps it's Nova, Frost, Loki and Trinity that are too powerful, instead of Oberon not being powerful enough.

Taking how powercreep and meta led to the ludicrous increase of what can be considered high-level, I think that is a possibility well worth considering.

If you want my opinion, this leads to the core question that plagues warframe in all ways, and the core, unanswered question that leads to this deep divide in the community in "pro-buffs" and "pro-nerfs":

"What should be the right difficulty progression?"

That is, what can should be defined as "early game, mid-game and late game"? DE, in their "we want players to play the game however they want" policy, has systematically refused to answer to this. but the truth is, this things must be defined-- else we will have people defending that a frame instantly killing level 9999 enemies is perfectly reasonable, and others saying that a frame that can't survive past-level 50 is "in a good position right now".

Well you're really just stating the obvious at that point, metas generally aren't good for variety but no matter what you do they will exist and you have to really accept it. The only way they won't exist is if you have everything the exact same which is just as bad as having a meta really. Sure you can use whatever look you want but in the end it's just as stale with no variety.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Dang. We're at 8 pages now. This is getting kinda difficult to keep up with. Well, if you want me to read something, you may have to quote or mention me.

A lot of you guys want me to do certain missions and stuff with Oberon to prove what I'm trying to say about his viability. What I'll do is this. I'll let you record yourself taking on a challenging mission with whatever warframe and stuff you wish, then I can try to do just a well with Oberon. First reason why is it'll take a lot of time for me to do everything, especially with my play time limitations, so I want to avoid doing requests which end up pointless. Second, if you can't do it yourself with your warframe of choice, you shouldn't expect me to do it with Oberon. The reason behind that should be obvious. Third, anyone can claim to do something, but they're often lying. Someone told me they're good with Banshee, Zephyr is bad, and that their Banshee could outperform my Zephyr. We went up against level 50 enemies, and he got downed twice, while I didn't get downed. It's like all bark and no bite, but there's just a really weak bite. Fourth and finally, people will be able to judge what you used and how you used it. That way, if you use something cheap or broken, or make an unfair expectation, you can easily be called out for it.

I'm eagerly waiting to see your vids. I'll, of course, record my attempt. (Also, you don't need to show the whole mission. Just 3 waves, 5 minutes, or so.)

No one has really asked you to prove anything, all you're doing is trying to justify that Oberon should be in the meta, even if the meta disagrees. Again no one cares what you can do with Oberon. The idea is that whatever he can do, there is always a better frame that can fill that slot, aka the meta problem.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

their Banshee could outperform my Zephyr.

That's true though. I have seen Banshees shut down entire maps like Xini. Zeph is just a dime store frost. Zeph's only real use is the Tonkor exploit. 

No one has really asked you to prove anything, all you're doing is trying to justify that Oberon should be in the meta, even if the meta disagrees. Again no one cares what you can do with Oberon. The idea is that whatever he can do, there is always a better frame that can fill that slot, aka the meta problem.

QFT, again . . . 

Edited December 5, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[DatDarkOne]

Meta this and meta that.  I'm an Old School Gamer and I say screw "meta".  You know what meta is for me?  Anything that I choose to use.  I'm not going to switch my chosen frame because someone else thinks it sux.  I will play the hell out of my frame and succeed.  All the while doing it with style.  That is my meta. 

Here's a question for those meta heads.  If I use a non meta frame and outperform a meta frame in the same mission, can that meta frame still be considered to be meta?  Mission being one that meta frame is supposedly effective at doing.  This is using the real meaning for meta which is "Most Effective Tactic Available".  Hehe, have fun with this thought experiment.  :D

Edited December 5, 2016 by DatDarkOne
correcting autocorrect

[Thebel]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's true though. I have seen Banshees shut down entire maps like Xini. Zeph is just a dime store frost. Zeph's only real use is the Tonkor exploit.

Sadly as much as I like Zeph, I have to agree simply because Banshee has a more usable/ user friendly kit. Zeph needs a better kit.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm an Old School Gamer and I say screw "meta".

Meta gaming has been around forever. 

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

can that meta frame still be considered to be meta? 

Yes, just because a frame is the most efficient at performing a task doesn't mean the player is good.

4 minutes ago, Thebel said:

Sadly as much as I like Zeph, I have to agree simply because Banshee has a more usable/ user friendly kit. Zeph needs a better kit.

Don't worry. I have a soft spot for Volt myself and wish he was better too. 

[ChuckMaverick]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

No, the only downside is that you might want an open slot for MR purposes. Dropping a frame is always going to happen unless you buy slots. 

I did address that in the original concept though, which was basically, to get a fair amount of frame MR before locking in the 4th frame.

Is buying frame slots really an issue, even for free players?

It's not hard to collect 20 junk prime parts and sell them for 1p each to folks looking to turn them into ducats (unless that is no longer a thing?).

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

@Thebel this was the only example I could remember the place it was. I'm not gonna search through the thread and find more, but there you go.

23 hours ago, SeaUrchins said:

What was your highest void defence wave in solo mode with Oberon?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Yes, just because a frame is the most efficient at performing a task doesn't mean the player is good.

 

So, are you saying META simply caters to the lowest common denominator?  "You too can achieve great things if you just push this 1 button!!!"

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Yes, just because a frame is the most efficient at performing a task doesn't mean the player is good.

Hehe.  Going by this statement, why would It be a good idea to not pick a very good Oberon user over a subpar Meta frame user?  That wouldn't be a good tactic for success.  Here in lies the root of the original post by OP 

I wouldn't and don't care what a player is using as long as they're doing damn good with it.  But that's me.  :D

Edited December 5, 2016 by DatDarkOne
corrected for clarity

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

So, are you saying META simply caters to the lowest common denominator?  "You too can achieve great things if you just push this 1 button!!!"

There are usually two metas when it comes to games with even moderately complex combat systems. One that is easy to play (your 'lowest common denominator' scenario) and one that is theoretically the best but may require significant skill to pull off successfully.

How different the two metas are will depend on game balance, a truly OP option may end up being the best, regardless of skill.

[Thebel]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Hehe.  Going by this statement, why would It be a good idea to not pick a very good Oberon user over a subpar Meta frame user?  That wouldn't be a good tactic for success.  Here in lies the root of the original post. 

I wouldn't and don't care what a player is using as long as they're doing damn good with it.  But that's me.  :D

Really depends on the role, healing? I'd take a average Trin instead because no travel time for heals for when you need it, Oberon is fine for chip damage but burst heals are better at a certain point. CC? Nova is literally just press 4 and wait, Oberon dunking give rad procs, but it's not as great as the enemy being slowed. The skill level of the Oberon user really has to be waay above the poor meta frame to be worth really swapping in a min/max squad or just finding a better one.

In the end this kind of question is more of a tongue in cheek kinda deal where you have this what if so and so situation. Well yeah everything is situational but we with the meta we are talking about the best possible outcome, which is generally seen in a vacuum.

[Shiichibukai]

On 3.12.2016 at 9:03 PM, Misgenesis said:

If its not meta its trash, basically. Zephyr's a really good frame despite having 2 outdated abilities. Id much rather have her for defence missions than Frost.

Too bad no one can top frost when it comes to defense, no matter how you wanna defend Zephyr

[DatDarkOne]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Meta gaming has been around forever. 

Meta gaming was created by my gaming generation.  My gaming experience precedes the creation of meta.  I have played and remember games where the concept of Most effective tactic available wasn't possible.  It was all skill, memory, or reflexes.  Don't believe me, then do your own research and prove me wrong.  Just know that I've been gaming for over 35+ years as a point of reference for any who decide to do the research.  :D

This is in regards to computer/electronic gaming. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added info

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

23 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Is buying frame slots really an issue, even for free players?

Yes, especially for players just starting out, even more so if they want to avoid the trade channel. We don't have anything like an Auction House.

21 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

So, are you saying META simply caters to the lowest common denominator?

No, I am saying the Meta is about what works best.

 

20 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

why would It be a good idea to not pick a very good Oberon user over a subpar Meta frame user? 

Because I have never met him before and don't know if he is good or not, and if he is good then he would still be more effective as a Nova.

 

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Meta gaming was created by my gaming generation.

I don't believe that you are hundreds of years old.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

and if he is good then he would still be more effective as a Nova

LOL.  This would imply that the player was a "Jack of All Trades".  :D

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

LOL.  This would imply that the player was a "Jack of All Trades".  :D

No, it means they would be a Nova.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

LOL.  This would imply that the player was a "Jack of All Trades".  :D

Not really, you just need a decent build and to know how to press '4'.

Of course a skilled Nova player would be even better, but really good CC and double damage for the whole cell is hard to beat as a starting point.

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, ChuckMaverick said:

Not really, you just need a decent build and to know how to press '4'.

Of course a skilled Nova player would be even better, but really good CC and double damage for the whole cell is hard to beat as a starting point.

Read thru the full topic and you will see where I was going with my statement. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

12 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is in regards to computer/electronic gaming. 

Meta Gaming predates video games, and in regards to electronic gaming, it has existed for as long as competitive video games have.

[(PSN)forChristsake]

On 12/3/2016 at 2:08 PM, (XB1)Woofsie said:

Basically it. I love playing Oberon and Saryn, and get quite a bit of hate for it. Best to just ignore them. 

People hate on you bringing Saryn,  really? I've been thanked for bringing my Saryn Prime to a pub defense ("always fun leveling with a Saryn"). I've also had clanmates joke it was too hard to get a kill as the enemies "die by the time I get to them."  With Oberon,  I just get hate when the cat ladies show up. With Nezha, the hate never starts because I start giving protective halos. though I don't like that I can cast it on warframes and sentinels but not dogs and cats.