Void Relics, Bigger Grind Wall?

[p3z1]

11 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Notice how these threads always pop up a day or two after a prime item is released?

You farm too hard. If these items were easy to get in two days, what's the point? You want then to just give it to you?

Yeah, coincidental about the time frame.

Yes, not actively grinding anymore 2 weeks after relics 2.0.

[ReyGanso]

23 hours ago, p3z1 said:

Yes, this is a discussion about relics, because we want to make the game better.

So, relics, IMO, are a bigger grind wall than the old void key system, here's why:
- There are 25 kinds of void keys (Exterminate, Mobile Defense, Capture, Defense, Survival, and Sabotage. T4 has Interception as well). These 25 keys compared to boatloads of relics. As much as we can stockpile Relics, it doesn't make the system any better. You WILL have to farm for relics, and they are diluted all around the place (paired with mods, endo, and credit caches).
- Per-relic efficiency. This one is pretty controversial it seems. Some people defend that relics are for balancing purposes. Others say that the old farming method for primes was better. In fact, the old system WAS better, allowing players to farm up to 4 primes in 20 minutes/waves, while spending one key. The current system requires a player to spend 4 relics, although it guarantees a prime part almost always.
- Drop rates. Before, the void key system only had one major flaw, Rotation A and B were rigged to be bad, while rotation C was rigged to be very diluted. I recall U8, where void keys only gave prime parts. The more primes that were added, the more diluted the reward tables became. I do not understand why (aside from DE needing to make money). There was also the fact that Rotation C gave you a good prime part (before T4 #*($%%@ up, that is). Now, players can reach "Rotation C" and still get common rewards, even if they are 4 Radiant runners. Sure, they can get lucky, but it makes it look like an RNG roll again.

The only positive thing I can think of right now about Relics is the slightly reduced amount of RNG involved to get a prime part. Sure we can refine relics to Radiant (10% for rare parts), but it's still kinda small of a chance to get. Also, we can pick rewards, making forma farming easier as a group. Solo players are, again, shafted, but that's another discussion.

RNG comparison between the Old and New Void system:

Old system:
- RNG to get a key
- RNG to get a prime part

New system:
- RNG to get a relic
- RNG to get an amount of void traces (optional, but makes it harder to score that rare part)
- RNG to get a good mission (personal preference, I like survivals and exterminates)
- semi-RNG to get the prime part

A little rant about Relics:

  Reveal hidden contents

Why the hell was the Relic system implemented if you're still gonna vault primes? It doesn't make much sense really. You just upped the RNG, and made farming more tedious. The old system worked fine, you just had to remove the S#&$ rewards in there (3x O-cells, credit caches, R5 cores in Rotation C in a T4 survival?). Scaling rewards were supposed to be a thing before, now you just add them in endless fissure runs, and they still kinda suck. Sure, the boosters are welcome, but fissure runners would mostly go for prime parts, or better yet, pre-refined relics. Too bad those pre-refined relics start popping up when, 60 minutes in a run?

In summary, the relic system seems like a waste of time, since DE could just remove the trash rewards given before during the void keys. The old system looked bad due to said trash rewards (T2 capture key 60 minutes in a derelict survival, really)? The relic system wasn't needed to make rewards scale on endless missions.

You took too long to realize it, this have been addresed many times.

Rng to get the relics

Rng to get the traces

Rng on relic cracking what u want chances, wich make em less efficient cuz 4 relics cracked at the same time but you only get to pick 1 reward.

3 layers of RNG. What a coincidence, same as Rivens, noticed?

Rng to get the mod

Rng on the quest to unveil it

Rng on the wep it usable to

Rng on the stats

 

We have been having it really good lately.

[p3z1]

11 minutes ago, XAJM said:

You took too long to realize it, this have been addresed many times.

Rng to get the relics

Rng to get the traces

Rng on relic cracking what u want chances, wich make em less efficient cuz 4 relics cracked at the same time but you only get to pick 1 reward.

3 layers of RNG. What a coincidence, same as Rivens, noticed?

Rng to get the mod

Rng on the quest to unveil it

Rng on the wep it usable to

Rng on the stats

 

We have been having it really good lately.

Yeah, only found time to post this yesterday (kept forgetting before, because RL).

[Borg1611]

I believe the solution is to give us the ability to mitigate terrible relic RNG in endless missions by increasing our chances to get newer relics at each interval. If you imagine each relic type had 3 sub tiers so that the oldest relics of each type were 1, mid age were 2 and the relics for the last 2-3 releases were t3, at each interval you stayed in the mission the weights of a relic drop being t1-3 would keep shifting over towards 3 until 1 was eliminated completely and eventually 2 was eliminated completely, just leaving you with the newer relics of whatever drops in that mission.

This way by staying in an endless mission and choosing to face more challenging content, we would be rewarded with better drops and be able to mitigate awful relic RNG.

[p3z1]

8 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I believe the solution is to give us the ability to mitigate terrible relic RNG in endless missions by increasing our chances to get newer relics at each interval. If you imagine each relic type had 3 sub tiers so that the oldest relics of each type were 1, mid age were 2 and the relics for the last 2-3 releases were t3, at each interval you stayed in the mission the weights of a relic drop being t1-3 would keep shifting over towards 3 until 1 was eliminated completely and eventually 2 was eliminated completely, just leaving you with the newer relics of whatever drops in that mission.

This way by staying in an endless mission and choosing to face more challenging content, we would be rewarded with better drops and be able to mitigate awful relic RNG.

Yes, Exactly

[Loswaith]

On 12/8/2016 at 2:20 AM, Tsukinoki said:

While there may be "boatloads" more relics, the number of relics that are generally farmable at any one time aren't that much higher.

Actually there are currently 11 Axi relics, and just one from the vault primes so that makes for 10, as opposed to 7.  Of those 11 none can be used for future prime releases while all 7 of the previous keys could be used for future prime farms, even if you didn't need them for the current parts.  So 25-30% more relics is still a significant amount more.

 

On 12/8/2016 at 2:20 AM, Tsukinoki said:

In order to get a 99% chance to get the one rare item you need from a relic you need 44 Radiants.
Compared that to the 232 run using keys to get the same 99% chance for the one rare part that you are after.

That's the rough upper bounds of runs needed to "guarantee" the prime part you need/want.  And the difference is utterly staggering.

Actually to get 44 Radiant relics you need to have done an average of 5 additional missions for the traces to make them (at 20 per run, rounding for traces gotten with the radiant run), thus 6 missions per relic (on average).  Thus a total of 264 missions. That equates to 32 more missions than the keys themselves, most (220, so 98.8% chance of having actually gotten the part in the key system) of which you have zero chance to gain a specific part without also using a relic, where as all of the key missions had some chance.

 

On 12/8/2016 at 2:20 AM, Tsukinoki said:

So at the very worst the new system has you grinding for the part you want at most 11 hours....compared to 77 in the old system.
And again this is just the upper bounds of time that is needed to "guarantee" the reward you want.

Only if you are comparing close to the shortest possible times per mission (3 mins, realistically only captures will take that little time) to the longest possible times per mission (20 mins, C rotation endless). Void wasn't only endless, and relics aren't only captures.  Obviously skewing that comparison will make the shortest times look good.  
However where you likely didn't have to grind out that many keys (because you could just use any ones keys, not just your own), you have to grind out relics every time new rewards are added, at about one relic (of that tier) per 15-20 mins, from a pool of 8-15 possible relics (plus endo, credits and mods) so some even up to 25+ possible rewards.  So while each relic run may take ~5 mins you can have up to 20 mins additional preparation for every relic you used, so actually ~25 mins per relic worst case.

A more realistic number would be about 5 minutes per reward, thus about 19 hours just running the relics themselves (presuming no traces), then you have to add the time taken to get the relics as opposed to the far lesser time to get keys (presuming you even need to).

If we presume no one had the key in the old system so that 20 mins to get a key (lets say we get lucky and get the one we want) across 4 players will make it still 25 mins per part as the keys will give 4 runs not just one for the 20 min key run (thus 5 mins per run spent in preperation).  Thus both systems can take about 25 mins per part.  However your less likely to get the relic than the key given more relics exist than keys, and you could use the key on future parts, the relic you wont be ever able to use on future parts.

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Loswaith

[RistN]

I must agree that there is still lot of rng involved with farming relics and its getting harder when each new appears.But your comparation of old and new system is wrong cause you mentioned traces as negative factor.Don't forget that in old system you had to play till rotation C to get some specific part that had drop rate like intact relic nowadays and you didn't have a chance to choose between 4 rewards.1 endless mission gives you much traces and they are affected by 2x resource booster.Also you had to farm for specific tower key,although it was much easier but still had to ,with T3 being very rare.

I'm still leaning more in favour of new system.

[Coaa]

I personally have no problem with the relic system as a whole. If you preplan instead of waiting for the day to come, you get everything you need typically right away via syndicate relic packs by cashing in weeks to months of medallion hunting.

I will agree though, there is a staggering amount of relics to choose from though which makes this process a bit diluted. I just don't know how to alleviate it without vaulting more then a few frames at a time. Or cycling parts on other relics and getting rid of the fluff on them such as forma on a bunch.

I think people seem to forget how BS the drop rates of the old key system actually was. Yes most people had 1028418904209180418 keys of every type but unless you were obnoxiously lucky you would have to do like 60+ keys of say T4 survival staying until 20 minutes just to get the part you needed. The amount of time investment of the key system was so much worse that It boggles my mind how anyone can say otherwise unless they just flat out don't remember already.

This system being able to stack my odds by upping a relic to 10%, then stacking 3 other people on my team and a chance every 5 min/5waves or even doing a capture / exterm is so much better its crazy. It's OBTAINING the relics that sucks if you DO NOT prepare ahead.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Coaa