Blade and Whip pause/knockdown combo too strong

[Witchydragon]

The pause combo reaches into the air,

Spoiler

 

has insane reach compared to all non thrown melee weapons,

Spoiler

 

and can kill players from 100% hp with the knockdown combo alone.

Spoiler

 

No other melee weapon can do this without being limited by either range, mobility, or accuracy. This combo does not launch the player into a small range of damage like the Nikana pause combo, it creates a straight line of damage in front of the player with additional area of effect. Because it knocks down early in the combo, it is very common to drag the victim into a big meat grinder of lethal damage, unlike similar combos which knockdown on the last hit. 

Blade the Whip weapons need to be less ridiculous- Remove the knockdown from the whip extension and maybe reduce it's damage if that alone is not enough.

 

[Wolfglaive]

Not really into Conclave, but looking at those gifs does make this seems a bit ridiculous. Is there any reliable method of avoidance or counterattack?

[Nighttide77]

Need to get some evidence of using the weapon, too. Good gifs of being on the receiving end.

[(PSN)Radek-98]

Thank you, someone needed to do a post about this. I would suggest to you either nerf the damage or change the combo like they did with the Sword and Shield pause combo.

[(PSN)Radek-98]

10 hours ago, Wolfglaive said:

Not really into Conclave, but looking at those gifs does make this seems a bit ridiculous. Is there any reliable method of avoidance or counterattack?

The problem is that this weapon, as stated above, is an Aoe weapon in which its starting attack knocks you down and unless your are in mid-air, you are not gonna survive. Melee vs melee is very difficult with this weapons since the same problem so unless you caught the person off-guard, your chances are very unlikely. Best way is to gun them down from a VERY long distance.

Edited December 26, 2016 by (PS4)TheKiller9805

[Witchydragon]

17 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

Need to get some evidence of using the weapon, too. Good gifs of being on the receiving end.

I have used the Mios before. I have used many melee weapons both to eliminate enemy players and as a defensive tool. I don't generally record melee frags, but here's something I dug out of random footage. 

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Let's see the damages.

My first combo chain killed 2 players, one of which was not on my screen, the other was far enough away to where any other melee weapon would not have hit. 

Second combo chain killed another player off of my screen, and knocked down another player who was again, far enough away to not get hit by anything other than a blade&whip weapon.

Most of the players killed may have been on low hp, but it does not excuse the ridiculous amount of ranged damage the Mios is capable of, and the instagib potential for a focused hit it too strong for a combo that knocks down on the first hit with excessive range. 

Check the killfeed at the bottom of the screen if you happen to disagree with any of my observations.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Witchydragon

[Nighttide77]

8 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

I have used the Mios before. I have used many melee weapons both to eliminate enemy players and as a defensive tool. I don't generally record melee frags, but here's something I dug out of random footage. 

  Hide contents

 

Let's see the damages.

My first combo chain killed 2 players, one of which was not on my screen, the other was far enough away to where any other melee weapon would not have hit. 

Second combo chain killed another player off of my screen, and knocked down another player who was again, far enough away to not get hit by anything other than a blade&whip weapon.

Most of the players killed may have been on low hp, but it does not excuse the ridiculous amount of ranged damage the Mios is capable of, and the instagib potential for a focused hit it too strong for a combo that knocks down on the first hit with excessive range. 

Check the killfeed at the bottom of the screen if you happen to disagree with any of my observations.

Nah, I don't disagree. Just figured it's always good to have all the cards laid out.

I'm personally not a fan of different parts of combos dealing more damage than other parts in the current system where there is little to no telegraphing so a target will get hit with something extravagant and not know what happened nor how to react next time. All they know in these melee instagib situations is to stay 10m away from the melee player at all times, which isn't a good design for PvP.

Generally one would think there should be a ratio between damage and range, where the longer the range the less damage the attack deals. That doesn't seem to be happening in a variety of weapons, including staves.

[Nazrethim]

On 26/12/2016 at 1:58 AM, Witchydragon said:

The pause combo reaches into the air,

  Reveal hidden contents

 

has insane reach compared to all non thrown melee weapons,

  Reveal hidden contents

 

and can kill players from 100% hp with the knockdown combo alone.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

No other melee weapon can do this without being limited by either range, mobility, or accuracy. This combo does not launch the player into a small range of damage like the Nikana pause combo, it creates a straight line of damage in front of the player with additional area of effect. Because it knocks down early in the combo, it is very common to drag the victim into a big meat grinder of lethal damage, unlike similar combos which knockdown on the last hit. 

Blade the Whip weapons need to be less ridiculous- Remove the knockdown from the whip extension and maybe reduce it's damage if that alone is not enough.

 

On the other hand, Blade&Whip combos leave the user very exposed, as they have a slow starting animation that you can't interrupt or roll out of. And the pause combo of B&W is unique in that it has some verticality and range at the cost of a narrow hitbox. Any target moving sideways can get out of the combo pretty easily and then counter attack.

A good rebalance could be to do what DE did to Nikanas: add a second input required. This requires no stat change on the weapon or the stance.

[taiiat]

i can't vouch for or against this but i see reasonable information suggesting that a more serious look from all angles may be a good idea.

[Witchydragon]

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

On the other hand, Blade&Whip combos leave the user very exposed, as they have a slow starting animation that you can't interrupt or roll out of. And the pause combo of B&W is unique in that it has some verticality and range at the cost of a narrow hitbox. Any target moving sideways can get out of the combo pretty easily and then counter attack.

A good rebalance could be to do what DE did to Nikanas: add a second input required. This requires no stat change on the weapon or the stance.

It's slightly narrower forward attack does not justify it's reach, verticality, damage, and knockdown. Weapons like the Machete, Nikana, and even Staves don't come close to the easy instant kill potential the Blade and Whip series offers.

At the very least the knockdown from the combo should be moved to the last hit of the combo so that players that are tapped by a single hit from the combo aren't guaranteed to die.

[Nazrethim]

37 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

At the very least the knockdown from the combo should be moved to the last hit of the combo so that players that are tapped by a single hit from the combo aren't guaranteed to die.

That would make sense since the last hit is a whip attack, would be like pulling the foot so they fall hahaha

[Nighttide77]

I think that the problem with the knockdown and stagger condition is how they are mechanics that allow an equipped melee player to control a target by spamming (rather than timed/calculated strikes). The way it is implemented seems to contradict how such CCs should be implemented in a PvP setting to make it fair for both the attacker and defender.

What we see with blade and whip is how a player can spam the same attack combo until it connects with the right part, of which it then can mean a somewhat random gank. The CC and potent damage aren't earned by skillfully timed strikes, but rather by a player being a flurry of semi-aimed swings.

Adjusting what part of the combo deals a CC might help solve a symptom of the problem, but I don't think it will cure the entire issue. I imagine it would only be a matter of time before we find another melee thing that needs fixing due to the current design philosophy.

[Nazrethim]

11 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

Adjusting what part of the combo deals a CC might help solve a symptom of the problem, but I don't think it will cure the entire issue. I imagine it would only be a matter of time before we find another melee thing that needs fixing due to the current design philosophy.

Thing is, DE would have to rework melee to fix some of the more jarring issues. Something that has been suggested pretty much since Melee 2.0 deployed. We need to be able to roll out of combos (Blade&Whip is particularly guilty of animation lock) and overall make melee play skillful and fast paced and able to work with parkour 2.0

[Nighttide77]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Thing is, DE would have to rework melee to fix some of the more jarring issues. Something that has been suggested pretty much since Melee 2.0 deployed. We need to be able to roll out of combos (Blade&Whip is particularly guilty of animation lock) and overall make melee play skillful and fast paced and able to work with parkour 2.0

You're right, and as long as PvE melee fighting rules over PvP, I have a hard time seeing it in the future.  PvE melee is too flashy and staggers targets with every swing.  Unless PvP melee gets all around dedicated work I fear Sword Alone will stay in its dismal state.

[Nazrethim]

21 minutes ago, Nighttide77 said:

You're right, and as long as PvE melee fighting rules over PvP, I have a hard time seeing it in the future.  PvE melee is too flashy and staggers targets with every swing.  Unless PvP melee gets all around dedicated work I fear Sword Alone will stay in its dismal state.

Well, the falshy impractical moves and the stagger on every hit on PvE is fine because we face AI. I'm talking more about the attack inputs (only E) and the channeling system. The flashy impractical stance issue could be somewhat bypassed if DE allowed the more pragmatic Conclave stances in PvE, as has been suggested (mostly by me) countless times. And several other issues (wall attacks with zero momentum, aerial attacks with cooldown) are present on both modes.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Nazrethim