HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[John89brensen]

Just now, ViS4GE said:

Wait what ? You wanted to go over reducing grind, so I gave you multiple examples and your response is for me to get off my high horse ? Nice.

Its the claim that "we reduced the grind, so thank me" that makes you look pedantic. And you only gave examples of stances. Regardless, this is off topic.

 

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

The point is that you can easily do it if you put some effort into it.

By paying, thank you for telling me something i didnt know.

 

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Let's wait a year then and not use speculations as arguments.

The lack of a denial is a confirmation of sorts, at the very least that they are considering it as an option.

 

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

if someone have blinders on then no amount of convincing is going to work. No matter what proof I provide, there will always be new imaginary issue created.

Please, as if you have the only truth possible. We understand very well what you are saying, and its bs. You are acting like we are being lazy or just wanting a freebie, when its not the case.  

 

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

what do you expect to accomplish here ? You got multiple official replies that nothing is changing, maybe it's time to let go already.

Well... this is the feedback thread. So i have the intention of giving my negative feedback on the state of some aspects of the game. In this particular case of the Hema controversy. And the devs gave one response, and then changed it for another.

In any case, i wont answer to you anymore, you are barely more than a white knight troll looking to derail this thread.

[kaliazane]

2 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Only don't forget to buy boosters, and don't fall asleep. Because Nekros, Hydroid, Trinity and speed Nova that I see you recommend with that picture is about as boring a setup as one can get.

Still, imagine you are just starting to play the game and you need 5000 for your solo ghost clan? You'll need to do it not 3 times, but 25. 8.3 hours of pure ODD farming with boosters.

Good luck finding people to play like that.

You seem to not understand the concept of ''500 per person is calculated on the WRONG assumption'' that was pointed out multiple times here. In actual fact a clan full to the brim with farmers exist only in dreams of game developers. Real people don't work that way. Real people work closer to the pricing model that was in effect before Hema. 20 minutes of focused farming with boosters gave enough to do a research on a solo ghost clan. An hour without boosters. Now we suddenly need 100 times more. And there are some people who think it's reasonable. I wonder, if there will be enough of those people to keep the servers running in 6 months?

 

But it's alright.

It's not like I'll try to sway you by logic, estimations, calculations, charts or common sense.

As said previously many, many, many times it's up to you to keep your clan as active as possible. If you sit in dead clan, that's your problem and you should do something about it.

Someone who is starting the game won't be thinking about getting Hema after Mk1-Braton. That's a terrible argument right there.

Rest of your post is pretty much sarcasm so I will skip it.

[Liminal]

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Just like I wont go through tables of numbers just to convince you of something. If you refuse to believe in something that was clearly visible, that's your choice. I even remember threads popping up about it, and youtubers talking about it.

It's not clearly visible because it's not true. Everything I said can be checked in Steamcharts. I'll even link it for you.

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Farm it without boosters then, problem solved. I'm loving all this "But I have to do it without boosters and without farming squad and without party and super fast" Whats next ? Without joining missions perhaps ?

It's been a while since I saw such a blatant strawman.

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Argument that something costs way more than anything else in the past is non argument at all. If that had to be requirement then game would remained the same and simply died with time. Just because you could research everything previously with basically no cost, doesn't mean that it should always be like that.

The way things should or shouldn't be is subjective, what's "no cost" to you may not be so for someone else, but even if things were too cheap before WF was doing great and it had more people playing by Dec 2016 than ever before, so why change it?

[kaliazane]

13 hours ago, John89brensen said:

Its the claim that "we reduced the grind, so thank me" that makes you look pedantic. And you only gave examples of stances. Regardless, this is off topic.

They did reduce many of core grind elements like credit farming and core farming and then added some new ones like kuva. It's done to help out new players and get them going and give veterans something to do once they completed everything. I gave way more examples then just stances, you sorta selectively removed rest from your memory.

13 hours ago, John89brensen said:

By paying, thank you for telling me something i didnt know.

Np.

13 hours ago, John89brensen said:

The lack of a denial is a confirmation of sorts, at the very least that they are considering it as an option.

That's a nice tinfoil hat you have right there, use to build that argument.

13 hours ago, John89brensen said:

Well... this is the feedback thread. So i have the intention of giving my negative feedback on the state of some aspects of the game. In this particular case of the Hema controversy. And the devs gave one response, and then changed it for another.

In any case, i wont answer to you anymore, you are barely more than a white knight troll looking to derail this thread.

Keep doing it till it's at least 200 pages long, that's 200 pages of mostly sarcasm and not feedback.

Enjoy wearing your blinders.

[KIREEK]

9 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Only don't forget to buy boosters, and don't fall asleep. Because Nekros, Hydroid, Trinity and speed Nova that I see you recommend with that picture is about as boring a setup as one can get.

Still, imagine you are just starting to play the game and you need 5000 for your solo ghost clan? You'll need to do it not 3 times, but 25. 8.3 hours of pure ODD farming with boosters.

Good luck finding people to play like that.

You seem to not understand the concept of ''500 per person is calculated on the WRONG assumption'' that was pointed out multiple times here. In actual fact a clan full to the brim with farmers exist only in dreams of game developers. Real people don't work that way. Real people work closer to the pricing model that was in effect before Hema. 20 minutes of focused farming with boosters gave enough to do a research on a solo ghost clan. An hour without boosters. Now we suddenly need 100 times more. And there are some people who think it's reasonable. I wonder, if there will be enough of those people to keep the servers running in 6 months?

 

But it's alright.

It's not like I'll try to sway you by logic, estimations, calculations, charts or common sense.

I made the assumption that someone would be able to do 3 hours, or even 6 hours to compenssate for other players who clearly can't play a few times over 3 weeks, i obviously made the wrong assumption that minimal activity was present in the warframe community, because 30 minutes per week is to much? dear god man

Why would someone that doesn't play even need the hema, i don't understand.

3 weeks was an example, i'm pretty sure players will still complain at 12 weeks or so, you can imagine the ammount of gameplay required at that point, heck i'm even suprised 5 waves of defense isn't to much by some.

[kaliazane]

6 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

It's not clearly visible because it's not true. Everything I said can be checked in Steamcharts. I'll even link it for you.

It is true. Compare january 2015 to january 2016 for example. So it looks like these changes were good after all.

8 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

It's been a while since I saw such a blatant strawman.

It's been a while since I saw someone create issues, instead of searching for solutions.

9 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

The way things should or shouldn't be is subjective, what's "no cost" to you may not be so for someone else, but even if things were too cheap before WF was doing great and it had more people playing by Dec 2016 than ever before, so why change it?

For veterans it was no cost at all, in a solo ghost clan you could just dump in everything without feeling cost. They changed it because it was dying, slowly but surely. December was TWW update time, so naturally it will have high player count plus there are holidays so people have time to play. Before that people were making threads saying they can't find a party on xbox, or how chat was almost empty.

[kaliazane]

12 hours ago, John89brensen said:

-Snip-

Your silly insults won't make my valid points any less valid.

Spoiler

Hema research is resonable if you are willing to put some effort into it. If you expect to do it witout any effort while afking with ember in akkad, you are out of luck.

 

 

[John89brensen]

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Your silly insults won't make my valid points any less valid.

  Hide contents

Hema research is resonable if you are willing to put some effort into it. If you expect to do it witout any effort while afking with ember in akkad, you are out of luck.

 

 

And i already told you that Meta squads and paying for boosters dont make the research reasonable at all. You make your arguments from the most narrow minded point of view possible, that of a player that does power grinding with boosters and a meta squad. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by John89brensen

[plexus_brachialis]

5 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Hema research is resonable if you are willing to put some effort into it. If you expect to do it witout any effort while afking with ember in akkad, you are out of luck.

but DE has always frowned upon on efficient farming squads and tactics because it's not 'playing the game'. and now we are explicitly encouraged to do that because it's somehow playing the game.

[kaliazane]

6 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

And i already told you that Meta squads and paying for boosters dont make the research any more reasonable. You make your arguments from the most narrow minded point of view possible, that of a player that does power grinding with boosters and a meta squad. 

People "meta squad" farm everything else, from credits to endo in arena. I don't get why suddenly it's not acceptable, as stated previously you are free to do it any way you want, just don't be surprised that it takes slower. 

3 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

but DE has always frowned upon on efficient farming squads and tactics because it's not 'playing the game'. and now we are explicitly encouraged to do that because it's somehow playing the game.

Did they ? all I see on recruiting channel are people making as efficient parties as possible, just because they don't like wasting time.

Edited January 31, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Flirk2]

 

13 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

As said previously many, many, many times it's up to you to keep your clan as active as possible. If you sit in dead clan, that's your problem and you should do something about it.

Look, why is it happening NOW? Can you answer this question? Why a solo ghost clan was perfectly alright before, but now it's a sin to not have 100% participation?

''Casuals'' is used as a swear word almost now. Why is that, precisely?

I thought it was people who didn't have the time to farm derelict for 8.3 hours that were a target audience for boosters, platinum and trading chat?

You know, the ones who want to have fun in the game, yet have access to every bit of content of the game without compromising their personal life and work?

13 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Someone who is starting the game won't be thinking about getting Hema after Mk1-Braton. That's a terrible argument right there.

No, you just don't want to think about it.

I made an alternate account just to see what research is and how the game feels for a player with nothing (no twinking) after all those updates. Made a solo ghost clan. Learned quite a lot about the game. Built the most basic dojo.

In about 173 hours of playing the game I had everything in the energy lab researched. Everything but Knux in the chemical munitions lab. Quite a few things in tenno lab.

But only about half of the bio lab done. And I was looking for ODD, sometimes going alone because I couldn't find even 1 person in recruiting and thinking: ''I never thought I will need to farm mutagen samples of all things.''

Then Hema happened. That account got frozen. Because I have 0 chance to finish all the research now. And guess what? I had to farm mutagen samples on my main account because 3.3k that I got from 1.8k hours of playing at that moment was a drop in the sea of tears for a storm clan.

Wonderful people in my clan managed to get enough of those samples recently. I managed to build and level that... thing. That turned out to be a reskin of a Harpak with viral damage, higher status chance and health drain on reload of all things... Like, slow bullets, low damage and lowish accuracy was not enough to balance it's OP research requirement.

But when I talked to those people about it the most neutral thing one of them said was ''Well, at least we have something to do''.

Do you really think it's a good thing for the game when all that's left to do is farming mutagen samples?

13 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Rest of your post is pretty much sarcasm so I will skip it.

Well, I don't have high hopes you didn't skip my post again... But why would you quote it in it's entirety then?

[DinendalMinyatur]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

 

The fundamental choice in this phase: those who refuse to invest real-world dollars must accept that they will only experience part of the game's content.  F2P now means choosing partial content or choosing not to play.

 

 

Thoughts?

 If this is true Warframe is following the path of other F2P games am i right?

I loved Warframe not only game itself is interesting, also it's F2P marketing was more tolerant unlike other F2P games.

Now it's a pity if they really going to force a pseudo-F2P type on players like many other online games do . But I don't think DE will change their marketing that much. I say let's just wait and see what decisions will DE make.

[plexus_brachialis]

5 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Did they ? all I see on recruiting channel are people making as efficient parties as possible, just because they don't like wasting time.

yes i know. players will play as they want. i just find it extremely funny that after viver, e gate, draco and 'playing one node is bad' it's suddenly totally great and acceptable and right thing to do. 

back in vivergate times, they made so many knee-jerk changes to stiffle cheese farmfest tactics. but now that's totally fine way to play the game. farm derelict with meta squad til you die. 

[John89brensen]

13 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

but DE has always frowned upon on efficient farming squads and tactics because it's not 'playing the game'. and now we are explicitly encouraged to do that because it's somehow playing the game.

Exactly, the irony of encouraging meta squads when they did so much to disband them in the past.

 

3 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

i just find it extremely funny that after viver, e gate, draco and 'playing one node is bad' it's suddenly totally great and acceptable and right thing to do. 

You hit the nail on that one. Dont pay him too much atention though, he will defend Hema to the very end.

[plexus_brachialis]

1 minute ago, John89brensen said:

Exactly, the irony of encouraging meta squads when they did so much to disband them in the past.

 

You hit the nail on that one. Dont pay him too much atention though, he will defend Hema to the very end.

eh, he is entitled to his opinion just as everyone else, i don't have any personal beef with him. was just curious about his opinion on DE's behavior, if we ignore all other hema issues. 

(if anything we should be thanking him for bringing the topic right back up)

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

Might be. But he does have more than 1.5 times the play time I have. I'm just curious how someone who spent that amount of time in the game can ignore the trend of ''reducing the grind'' by multiplying it by a factor of 10. Sometimes, twice.

It comes with experience.

2 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Look, why is it happening NOW? Can you answer this question? Why a solo ghost clan was perfectly alright before, but now it's a sin to not have 100% participation?

''Casuals'' is used as a swear word almost now. Why is that, precisely?

I thought it was people who didn't have the time to farm derelict for 8.3 hours that were a target audience for boosters, platinum and trading chat?

You know, the ones who want to have fun in the game, yet have access to every bit of content of the game without compromising their personal life and work?

My guess would be because they needed to make changes to keep game active, they also stated they wanna put more emphasis on clans. How else would they do that? only through research cost. To me requirements on solo ghost clan were always way too low and I was surprised how low they are when I made mine. How is casual a swear word ? It's your choice to buy or not buy boosters, or go farming when you happen to get 3 day one for free from sortie. It still can be done without them, but obviously will take longer.

 

7 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

No, you just don't want to think about it.

I made an alternate account just to see what research is and how the game feels for a player with nothing (no twinking) after all those updates. Made a solo ghost clan. Learned quite a lot about the game. Built the most basic dojo.

In about 173 hours of playing the game I had everything in the energy lab researched. Everything but Knux in the chemical munitions lab. Quite a few things in tenno lab.

But only about half of the bio lab done. And I was looking for ODD, sometimes going alone because I couldn't find even 1 person in recruiting and thinking: ''I never though I will need to farm mutagen samples of all things.''

Then Hema happened. That account got frozen. Because I have 0 chance to finish all the research now. And guess what? I had to farm mutagen samples on my main account because 3.3k that I got from 1.8 hours of playing at that moment was a drop in the sea of tears for a storm clan.

Wonderful people in my clan managed to get enough of those samples recently. I managed to build and level that... thing. That turned out to be a reskin of a Harpak with viral damage, higher status chance and health drain on reload of all things... Like, slow bullets, low damage and lowish accuracy was not enough to balance it's OP research requirement.

But when I talked to those people about it the most neutral thing one of them said was ''Well, at least we have something to do''.

Do you really think it's a good thing for the game when all that's left to do is farming mutagen samples?

They won't even know/care about it at that point.

So you see yourself how easy researching everything solo was, even on fresh account. It was literally nothing and presonally I don't think it should be that way, especially if they are focusing on clans this year. Personally I've seen quite a bit of mutagen ODD parties, that screen I showed was from one random one.

Well done completing storm clan requirements, try giving hema a chance through. It's way more than reskined Harpak, especially with decent riven. I'd say it's uniqe enough to justify the cost, especially with that healing on headshots no other primary got.

Let's say that Hema had no cost, like almost all other weapons. U'd get it and log off and that would be it till next update.

[kaliazane]

11 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

yes i know. players will play as they want. i just find it extremely funny that after viver, e gate, draco and 'playing one node is bad' it's suddenly totally great and acceptable and right thing to do. 

back in vivergate times, they made so many knee-jerk changes to stiffle cheese farmfest tactics. but now that's totally fine way to play the game. farm derelict with meta squad til you die. 

Well idk, maybe they could add it to one more planet. But then again, nobody previously played Derelict missions and I base that statement on what I saw on recurit channel. Now we have reason to go there and get some relics at same time.

[John89brensen]

12 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Might be. But he does have more than 1.5 times the play time I have. I'm just curious how someone who spent that amount of time in the game can ignore the trend of ''reducing the grind'' by multiplying it by a factor of 10. Sometimes, twice.

Just out of curiosity how much time is that? In any case that doest really mean anything, for all you know a player with 5k hours could have spent most of his time sitting inside the liset. In any case, there are players that will defend whatever changes come to the game, no matter what, and they will accuse you of being unreasonable for not agreeing with them. 

20 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

But only about half of the bio lab done. And I was looking for ODD, sometimes going alone because I couldn't find even 1 person in recruiting and thinking: ''I never though I will need to farm mutagen samples of all things.''

Then Hema happened. That account got frozen. Because I have 0 chance to finish all the research now. And guess what? I had to farm mutagen samples on my main account because 3.3k that I got from 1.8 hours of playing at that moment was a drop in the sea of tears for a storm clan.

In the case of my clan we simply stopped with Hema. Not only clans are not 100% active, but people are discouraged from playing if you have to gather figures as high as 150k. But i can imagine that for new smaller clans, is also an uphill battle, considering all the things you have to farm for in this game.

[kaliazane]

Just now, John89brensen said:

Just out of curiosity how much time is that? In any case that doest really mean anything, for all you know a player with 5k hours could have spent most of his time sitting inside the liset.

Game counter doesn't include liset time, you should at least know that.

[John89brensen]

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

nobody previously played Derelict missions and I base that statement on what I saw on recurit channel. Now we have reason to go there and get some relics at same time.

Back in the days when prime parts dropped in ODD/S you could find squads to go there. DE removed the rewards, putting nothing in its place, thus the incentive to play derelict was also removed. Now we might have a reason again, but not a good reason, and once people have research the Hema (those that do) derelict will be as forgotten as it once was. And what are they gonna do after? make us farm 5 mill mutagen for the next one, just to force us to play there?

[kaliazane]

6 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Back in the days when prime parts dropped in ODD/S you could find squads to go there. DE removed the rewards, putting nothing in its place, thus the incentive to play derelict was also removed. Now we might have a reason again, but not a good reason, and once people have research the Hema (those that do) derelict will be as forgotten as it once was. And what are they gonna do after? make us farm 5 mill mutagen for the next one, just to force us to play there?

Ya I know, I got most of my neurodes/samples there farming for kama handles. They made it drop mostly relics now, but I didn't saw that as enough of a incentive to go there anymore despite actually enjoying survivals there. I'd say samples will be enough of a reason to go there, especially considering new players who eventually will stop being new and try to get it making new parties. Is it perfect ? no, no game is perfect. But it's not as bad as few people try to make it look.

Edited January 31, 2017 by ViS4GE

[plexus_brachialis]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Well idk, maybe they could add it to one more planet. But then again, nobody previously played Derelict missions and I base that statement on what I saw on recurit channel. Now we have reason to go there and get some relics at same time.

the least they could've done was to slap it on all infested missions and keep it rare and it would at least give us choice which missions to run. i like DS saturn survival and jupiter defense. ocassionaly i play invasions. that's already giving me varied choices how to accomplish the grind. 

why do we need to be shoehorned into playing derelict? 

why is excessive grind for one weapon regarded as content and 'giving vets something to do'?

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, plexus_brachialis said:

the least they could've done was to slap it on all infested missions and keep it rare and it would at least give us choice which missions to run. i like DS saturn survival and jupiter defense. ocassionaly i play invasions. that's already giving me varied choices how to accomplish the grind. 

why do we need to be shoehorned into playing derelict? 

why is excessive grind for one weapon regarded as content and 'giving vets something to do'?

Why derelict ? because it happend to be empty. As said previously, there are other things that only drop in certain places that you might not like. They won't make everyone happy.

It's as excessive as you make it to be. But hey, i'd like something different like that announced Shadow Of Mordor thingie aswell.

[Ditto132]

Here you go, to release some of the tension :D

original post: 

 

[plexus_brachialis]

Just now, ViS4GE said:

Why derelict ? because it happend to be empty. As said previously, there are other things that only drop in certain places that you might not like. They won't make everyone happy.

It's as excessive as you make it to be. But hey, i'd like something different like that announced Shadow Of Mordor thingie aswell.

so is kuva fortress. since it's introduction it's been there just for cleaning the nodes and nothing. 'working on it' is still no content.

excessive or not, are you saying grind for one weapon is content?