HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Ditto132]

50 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's meant to be played in many ways and have something for everyone, pleasing everyone with every update will never happen because players are different and expect different things.

Yes, it is meant to be played in many ways and have something for everyone. That why the game got variety of frames, weapons and mods setup.
If so, why encourage meta farming in squad?

50 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

I'm sure once new updates drops, there will be yet another thing that some players will be extremely displeased about. All that while popularity of this game continues to rise.

There will be some displeased players, but have you seem such an extreme reaction from the community?
And videos like these:

 

[plexus_brachialis]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Derelicts are entire tileset, not just 1 node. Tileset that had next to no use previously and now it does.

Also this meta + one node is still here because people don't like to waste time, draco was replaced by bere. Want to farm credits, akkad with proper party. Almost everything you mentioned is still here in one form or another.

yes, except if you don't wanna waste time, you will go ODS/ODD. all other incentives are better farmed in quick missions. other rare resources, credits and relics are readily available all over star chart. as i said, I KNOW players will CHEESE. that's not the point. the point is that DE never encouraged it as it was 'not playing the game'. but now we are forced to one tileset because we are not playing the game? 

what use does void now see? can we expect next thing that comes out to require truckload of argons because we are not playing them? void and derelict have same basic setup now, only difference lights, infested blobs and faction. rewards are similar. things you can find elsewhere. void trace alerts? just run lith or two and you'll get 2-3x more. argon? unless you plan to build all things that require it at once, you don't farm it for days. 

 

[kaliazane]

6 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

But it is. If it feels good, it's a good game play.

Or is the game expected to be some kind of punishment? I didn't think so. But it sure starts to feel that way.

And really, stop with the Ember already. You used it yourself quite enough. If you didn't enjoy using it, well, you had a lot of frames to choose from.

I used it because it was easy and required no effort, and I used it so much that I can clearly state it's not very healthy for actual gameplay. Ember was counter argument to what other guy said, maybe don't jump in middle of conversation with someone else.

6 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Rubbish.

I got my Ember Prime Blueprint before it got vaulted, and have only about 150 orokin ciphers. When there was something to get from Derelict I was quite happy going there.

Even Embering (or Tinity'ing when someone else Embered) ODD didn't feel that bad back when I had a chance at a prime part on rotation C and didn't have any use for mutagen samples...

Saying "I only had this many samples after few years" Only means that you didn't play there much.

6 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

I'm sorry, but what is this? A counter argument? I don't think so. I bring up my play time as evidence to drop rate.

And it is. Because I didn't have any boosters for maybe 95% of that play time, it's a rather accurate representation of drop rates.

I played the game slower than most people, true. But I didn't sit with unused blueprints for months either. When there were things to level, I leveled them. So I know how resources were drained quite well for an average player with no boosters and playing mostly solo.

It was exactly what it was supposed to be and I think you understood it. You are bringing up same washed up arguments that were countered multiple times in the past.

[kaliazane]

5 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Yes, it is meant to be played in many ways and have something for everyone. That why the game got variety of frames, weapons and mods setup.
If so, why encourage meta farming in squad?

What if I enjoy meta squad and efficient farming, does it mean I can't have it if there is supposed to be something for everyone ?

5 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

There will be some displeased players, but have you seem such an extreme reaction from the community?
And videos like these:

Yes there is few very displeased and vocal players, same exact few people I keep seeing over and over again on these forums.

[KaizergidorahXi]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

What if I enjoy meta squad and efficient farming, does it mean I can't have it if there is supposed to be something for everyone ?

Yes there is few very displeased and vocal players, same exact few people I keep seeing over and over again on these forums.

Just wait until DE releases a new infested weapon that requires the Hema as a prereq. Then you'll see all the dormant salt rise to the surface.

[kaliazane]

12 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

yes, except if you don't wanna waste time, you will go ODS/ODD. all other incentives are better farmed in quick missions. other rare resources, credits and relics are readily available all over star chart. as i said, I KNOW players will CHEESE. that's not the point. the point is that DE never encouraged it as it was 'not playing the game'. but now we are forced to one tileset because we are not playing the game? 

what use does void now see? can we expect next thing that comes out to require truckload of argons because we are not playing them? void and derelict have same basic setup now, only difference lights, infested blobs and faction. rewards are similar. things you can find elsewhere. void trace alerts? just run lith or two and you'll get 2-3x more. argon? unless you plan to build all things that require it at once, you don't farm it for days. 

 

Yes, but it still is entire tileset.

I said in past that maybe they could add it to another tileset, maybe that's what you should be advocating for because they clearly have no intention of reducing samples required.

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes, but it still is entire tileset.

1 tileset which almost NEVER comes up in normal gameplay (sorties, alerts, invasions, etc) out of which only 2 nodes are worth a damn as far as drops go (ODD and ODS), has no public mode due to key access and even then with all of that in mind, drop rates are pathetic unless you pay up.

I don't see a problem at all! /s

[Flirk2]

9 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Ember was counter argument to what other guy said, maybe don't jump in middle of conversation with someone else.

Ember can't be a counter argument.

Because it's a fine warframe. It's not OP, not matter what some people say. It can get boring after a  while, but what doesn't?

10 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Saying "I only had this many samples after few years" Only means that you didn't play there much.

Not it doesn't. It means they have a 1% drop chance on a tile set that never had rewards in half of the missions, and nothing useful in endless missions since SotR.

You talk like after Hema Mobile defense and Sabotage in Derelict became popular in the extreme. They did not.

Even ODD is rather hard to get a group for. ODS even with people you know well won't get you nearly as much because you can't make people camp, or they'll die of boredom.

14 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

You are bringing up same washed up arguments that were countered multiple times in the past.

Sorry, countered with what, exactly?

''oh, you need to have all the boosters, loot-centric  squad, full clan and play 1 node for just 2 hours to get all the mutagen you need!'' is not an argument. Sorry.

13 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

What if I enjoy meta squad and efficient farming, does it mean I can't have it if there is supposed to be something for everyone ?

DE said so. Multiple times.

Problem is, now they based research requirements around your play stile. You don't feel the pain? Because you don't mind this kind of game play.

Which, for me, is mighty strange. So much hate for Ember... yet, watching Hydroid Hentaing the enemies for 2 hours, while Nekros stands there desecrating, Trinity stands there EVing, and Nova stands there Priming (the definition of ''efficient farming'') is, somehow much better.

17 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes there is few very displeased and vocal players, same exact few people I keep seeing over and over again on these forums.

Do you really think those guys have nothing to do but complain on the forums? They complain in their vids on their channels.

[plexus_brachialis]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes, but it still is entire tileset.

I said in past that maybe they could add it to another tileset, maybe that's what you should be advocating for because they clearly have no intention of reducing samples required.

and void is also entire tileset. im interested to know how many people play it outside of fissures spawning there. i really am. because i don't wanna be forced  there again because i'm not playing it enough now. after hema craze dies down, derelict will once again be as unused as before. what then? hema 2.0?

i did suggest, few times in this thread. you even agreed with me once. keep it rare and infested, and we could have DS and invasions to break the tedium. 

if de is worried we are not appreciating the beauty of all tilesets equally, they should put more incentive to keep us coming back to them. not one time spike. 

to borrow sibear again for a moment, it's cryotic sink. but it's one time cryotic sink. what am i supposed to do when i hit 30k cryotic again? build new sibear? then third? fourth? they need more systematic approach for resource sinks if they are so worried about our stockpiles.

[plexus_brachialis]

3 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

You talk like after Hema Mobile defense and Sabotage in Derelict became popular in the extreme. They did not.

i remember when gate crash event introduced twist to sabotages and derelict ones were also made worthy to play!...wait, they weren't...'void is so crowded we have to vault things' but derelict had plenty empty spaces where they could put something. 

they had chances to put something there plenty times. they never cared to.

[Ditto132]

30 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Derelicts are entire tileset, not just 1 node. Tileset that had next to no use previously and now it does.

Also this meta + one node is still here because people don't like to waste time, draco was replaced by bere. Want to farm credits, akkad with proper party. Almost everything you mentioned is still here in one form or another.

Actually, mainly 2 nodes, ODS and ODD.

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

I said in past that maybe they could add it to another tileset, maybe that's what you should be advocating for because they clearly have no intention of reducing samples required.

Well, Steve first replied with it was a mistake and no changes because of "honouring" players who done the grind.
Players then suggested ways to make up for the mistake, by reducing samples, increasing drop rates, make Eris drop more and ways of "honouring" players who done the grind.
Then, all we got from Steve was that it is raining Mutagen Samples in Derelict...

15 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

What if I enjoy meta squad and efficient farming, does it mean I can't have it if there is supposed to be something for everyone ?

Yes there is few very displeased and vocal players, same exact few people I keep seeing over and over again on these forums.

Nothing wrong with enjoying meta squad and efficient farming. It is not what a lot of players wanted.
Reducing research costs doesn't deny you from continuing to using meta squad and efficient farming.
There are players who like to play very long endless survival/defense missions, and that playstyle is not being imposed on to everyone else like the Hema research cost does.

Few same vocal players. Why?
It is because most players who voiced out in the old thread had rage quit the game, give up hope on DE and the game, doesn't want to deal with the forum toxicity...

[kaliazane]

12 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Ember can't be a counter argument.

Because it's a fine warframe. It's not OP, not matter what some people say. It can get boring after a  while, but what doesn't?

You didn't understood what I've been talking about with other guy then.

12 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Not it doesn't. It means they have a 1% drop chance on a tile set that never had rewards in half of the missions, and nothing useful in endless missions since SotR.

You talk like after Hema Mobile defense and Sabotage in Derelict became popular in the extreme. They did not.

Even ODD is rather hard to get a group for. ODS even with people you know well won't get you nearly as much because you can't make people camp, or they'll die of boredom.

Yes it does.

Also I've seen people advocating that ODS is actually better, I didn't try it myself so can't confirm that. But that's the thing, something something you consider bad and inefficient someone else can consider good.

12 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Sorry, countered with what, exactly?

''oh, you need to have all the boosters, loot-centric  squad, full clan and play 1 node for just 2 hours to get all the mutagen you need!'' is not an argument. Sorry.

With a valid arguments, not your over the top sarcasm.

12 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

DE said so. Multiple times.

Problem is, now they based research requirements around your play stile. You don't feel the pain? Because you don't mind this kind of game play.

Which, for me, is mighty strange. So much hate for Ember... yet, watching Hydroid Hentaing the enemies for 2 hours, while Nekros stands there desecrating, Trinity stands there EVing, and Nova stands there Priming (the definition of ''efficient farming'') is, somehow much better.

Which brings us back to, there is something for everyone and not everything needs to be for everyone. Do whatever you enjoy doing, it's 1 weapon out of 500 ? or whatever the number is.

 

[plexus_brachialis]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Which brings us back to, there is something for everyone and not everything needs to be for everyone. Do whatever you enjoy doing, it's 1 weapon out of 500 ? or whatever the number is.

but based on hard data that says hema was right decision, they will continue going in this vein and meta farming will become obligatory if you want to get anything done. 

[kaliazane]

8 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

There are players who like to play very long endless survival/defense missions, and that playstyle is not being imposed on to everyone else like the Hema research cost does.

Few same vocal players. Why?
It is because most players who voiced out in the old thread had rage quit the game, give up hope on DE and the game, doesn't want to deal with the forum toxicity...

Nobody foces you to grind for it.

Yes, that's why warframe is doing great.

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, plexus_brachialis said:

but based on hard data that says hema was right decision, they will continue going in this vein and meta farming will become obligatory if you want to get anything done. 

Recently released new weapon OHMA doesn't indicate it, but yes maybe in future they will again add something for people who enjoy partying with their clan and working together towards something. 

[Ditto132]

24 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Do you really think those guys have nothing to do but complain on the forums? They complain in their vids on their channels.

Hmm. Seems like he didn't even bother watching those videos, seeing from how fast he replied. Each videos are about 4-11 minutes long...
Didn't even bother listening to what those youtubers have to say, in term of the weapon itself and the acquisition..

[plexus_brachialis]

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Recently released new weapon OHMA doesn't indicate it, but yes maybe in future they will again add something for people who enjoy partying with their clan and working together towards something. 

but but...hard data...right decision...clearly popular and right choice...how could they have passed the opportunity :<

[Flirk2]

7 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

With a valid arguments, not your over the top sarcasm.

I don't think you know what's over the top sarcasm looks like.

I just put together all the ''helpful suggestions'' from you in one sentence.

7 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Which brings us back to, there is something for everyone and not everything needs to be for everyone. Do whatever you enjoy doing, it's 1 weapon out of 500 ? or whatever the number is.

I really don't know how to explain to someone that such elitism is not healthy for the game.

5 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Nobody foces you to grind for it.

Yes, that's why warframe is doing great.

Was.

Now we have PvP events, and so on.

''No one forces you'' just doesn't cut it in a game. Sure, they can't force me to do what I don't like. But they sure try.

5 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Recently released new weapon OHMA doesn't indicate it, but yes maybe in future they will again add something for people who enjoy partying with their clan and working together towards something. 

There was a small break in resource inflation after Sibear as well.

[kaliazane]

14 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

I don't think you know what's over the top sarcasm looks like.

I just put together all the ''helpful suggestions'' from you in one sentence.

You really didn't do anything.

Quote

I really don't know how to explain to someone that such elitism is not healthy for the game.

It's not elitism, it's providing something for everyone.

Quote

Was.

Now we have PvP events, and so on.

''No one forces you'' just doesn't cut it in a game. Sure, they can't force me to do what I don't like. But they sure try.

IS actually. Don't like pvp ? don't do it.

Quote

There was a small break in resource inflation after Sibear as well.

You are once again jumping in middle of conversation I'm having with someone else.

 

By any chance, were you that guy who tried to prove something by providing screens of solo farming for mutagen samples in Akkad in response to this ?

Spoiler

I think that was you.

Edited February 5, 2017 by ViS4GE

[John89brensen]

4 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Well yes, i don't want to say that players don't play, but it seems there are several factors in which players are not paying much attention and the result is more time required.

I'll explain, on the top of my head, Hema research is a combination of 5 factors:

1. clan activity and contribution
2. Player efficiency
3. Team setup strategy
4. location to gather samples
5. time

 

We have already covered how all clans are not 100% active, and how not all players play 4 hours a day, assuming that clans are 100% active is the same error DE made. Player efficiency, what does that even mean? Because if its a farming thing, then its releated to your point 3. Team set up has no strategy whatsoever, its just a meta squad, and it has already been mentioned how ironic it is that DE encourages meta squads, when they already made efforts to dismantle them. Location to gather samples, there are only 2, ODD and ODS, no other, DE has refused to increase MS drops on Eris, or like i have alredy said, make MS an infested faction drop, regardless of location. As for the time, i already told you that @ChuckMaverick iirc mentioned that the average player logs in for around an hour a day, and there is plenty of other things to grind for in Warframe, so i dont see whats wrong with players not wanting to camp one tyleset for one research project.

 

4 hours ago, KIREEK said:

It seems that if you take care of all of these things at the same time, they will all feel fair, you won't need anything to a degree that will be anoying, some players do manage these things and that may be the case as to why they don't complain.

Then how is it that there are plenty of players on this thread that have completed the research for Hema, and still consider it unfair, and an absurd increase in research costs?

 

4 hours ago, KIREEK said:

You can always solve these things, but it comes down to the individual player. I'm not saying players aren't playing or that Meta is required, you just need to balance the 5 factors, but i do mean balance, not negletion.

So, once again, you only blame the player, for what is essentially a developer decision, since it was them that made the 1000% increase in research costs. If it indeed came down to the individual player, Hema would be expensive to craft not to research. And im sorry to tell you, but the only way to farm MS and make it worth your time is by setting up a meta squad, you would be indeed neglecting the farm if you dont.

All in all, DE does not seem to understand that player time is a valuable thing, and that we could be doing other, more interesting things, than camping in ODD/S.

[Flirk2]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's not elitism, it's providing something for everyone.

Oh really? ''This new thing is for ME and awesome people like ME. It's not for YOU.'' is not elitism? Ok.

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

IS actually. Still nobody forces you to do these PvP events.

I would face palm if it helped anyone.

You are missing the point. Again.

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

You are once again jumping in middle of conversation I'm having with someone else.

It's what happens on forums. You post something? Be prepared that your point will be contested by multiple people at once.

5 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

By any chance, were you that guy who tried to prove something by providing screens of solo farming for mutagen samples in Akkad in response to this ?

Funny you remember one shot from the post. But there were 2.

One from Derelict. One from Akkad.

And the post specifically went like this:

Here is the drop rate on Derelict without boosters. Screen shot.

And here is the drop rate on Akkad. Screen shot.

But I admit, putting 2 pictures in one post to make a point of comparing drop rates might have been too much information. Sorry for that.

 

I'm done for tonight. I don't think I can say anything that will convince you that in a game everything should be available to everybody in a reasonable manner (founder items not included, obviously).

[kaliazane]

21 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Hmm. Seems like he didn't even bother watching those videos, seeing from how fast he replied. Each videos are about 4-11 minutes long...
Didn't even bother listening to what those youtubers have to say, in term of the weapon itself and the acquisition..

I actually saw most of them in past, it was mostly what we can see in this thread every day.

 

[kaliazane]

11 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Oh really? ''This new thing is for ME and awesome people like ME. It's not for YOU.'' is not elitism? Ok.

Yes really, "clan goals are such a terrible thing because I don't enjoy them, what about people who do ? I don't care about them they are elitists !"

Quote

I would face palm if it helped anyone.

You are missing the point. Again.

"Rubbish" (I really hate to respond in the way you did, but oh well)

Quote

It's what happens on forums. You post something? Be prepared that your point will be contested by multiple people at once.

But you completely missed Ember point. It's bound to happen again if you keep doing that.

Quote

Funny you remember one shot from the post. But there were 2.

One from Derelict. One from Akkad.

And the post specifically went like this:

Here is the drop rate on Derelict without boosters. Screen shot.

And here is the drop rate on Akkad. Screen shot.

But I admit, putting 2 pictures in one post to make a point of comparing drop rates might have been too much information. Sorry for that.

 

I'm done for tonight. I don't think I can say anything that will convince you that in a game everything should be available to everybody in a reasonable manner (founder items not included, obviously).

Ah so that was you. I actually remember both screens very clearly, you went above and beyond to farm in as inefficient way as possible and that was your best response to my screen demonstrating that Steve was clearly right when he said it's raining. I still can't believe you thought that you actually proved something that way. Btw. I've seen people farming without boosters aswell, even saying they did it solo in last thread. You just have to be willing to play the game.

Spoiler

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by ViS4GE

[plexus_brachialis]

@ViS4GE, why do you play this game if grind is obviously not grindy enough for you, enemies are easy to slaughter and players are more casual than you want them to be? is this the right game for you?

[Flirk2]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Ah so that was you. I actually remember both screens very clearly, you went above and beyond to farm in as inefficient way as possible and that was your best response to my screen demonstrating that Steve was clearly right when he said it's raining. I still can't believe you thought that you actually proved something that way.

This. Again. Same screen shot. Demonstrating clearly that you have 2 boosters on, 3 people do absolutely nothing but using Desecrate, Energy Vampire and Molecular Prime, and you spent a whole lot of time doing nothing but moving a little to avoid AFK timer and watching your tentacles.

Well done.

Such efficiency.

Much game play.

A lot better than WoF Ember.

I'm really done. If you can't calculate drop rate, can't understand what boosters are, and that not every one has them or wants them to be a must. Can't see that the next thing will take into account not my casual 3.3k mutagen samples, but your ''efficiently farmed'' stockpile... Good luck.