schilds Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) This is not a normal virus. What we know about the virus is that it carries blueprints for many different things with it and that it's intelligent. That means you can't assume much from it's normal practice. For all we know, viral colonies incorporate bits of the host out of convention and pragmatism. Modern human colonies, for example, typically follow cultural patterns and radical remodelling of the terrain isn't usual because it's expensive. However we aren't bound to repetition and we are capable of radical alterations if we choose. All the Kubrow egg might have been, then, was a convenient source of material and environment in which to start whatever project the virus felt like. Edited January 25, 2017 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, schilds said: This is not a normal virus. What we know about the virus is that it carries blueprints for many different things with it and that it's intelligent. That means you can't assume much from it's normal practice. For all we know, viral colonies incorporate bits of the host out of convention and pragmatism. Modern human colonies, for example, typically follow cultural patterns and radical remodelling of the terrain isn't usual because it's expensive. However we aren't bound to repetition and we are capable of radical alterations if we choose. All the Kubrow egg might have been, then, was a convenient source of material and environment in which to start whatever project the virus felt like. The question i still have then: Where is the kubrow part? Egg or no egg. To get infested you need a organism as host. No matter what. Infested create mutation out of the hosts DNA or living organic material (within host) to change the appearings in a deforming way. Movie "the thing" ?! Best excample... It can not completly remove the host DNA - or it will die with it, before it might be able to infest another host... That is a sort of "Co-Existing" before the virus is able to take the control and infest as much possible other hosts. - Parasit ? This parasit, controls his host while sitting and stimulating his brain. (zombie is real) But they do not kill or can not completely delete theire hosts natural given form. Impossible. The host is the core. Where is the Kubrow here? 🤔 And where does the grineers head come from? Yet i do not see on every infested"thing" a grineers head... but on the infested kubrow eeeh??!! And even IF THEY copy paste infested +grineer DNA to the kubrow... still are just 1 infested DNA (grineer within) & the host kubrow... No matter how you try to turn the stone...it still is a stone. <~ where is the kubrow part? 😉 Edited January 25, 2017 by P0Pz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 All of that is your own assumption. Nowhere are we explicitly told what the virus can or can't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, schilds said: All of that is your own assumption. Nowhere are we explicitly told what the virus can or can't do. Hmm look at any infested "thing". 😉 Anything got a rest part of the host. Just like it should. "Break-out-deforming" after getting infected. You can find that EVERYWHERE in the nature. But killing the host before it is infecting others will kill the host AND virus, bc he got no "source" of gaining energy and spread out virus offspring. This virus needs a host. You can take that bet. Any lifeform needs energy to exist. Living organism needs: Grow Reproduce Are composed of chemicals Respond to their environment Exhibit organization on many levels essential chemicals an energy source - Organisms require energy to assimilate or put together the chemicals that form an individual. Energy is also required for the organism to grow, reproduce, and respond to the environment. Energy sources may include other organisms, light, or inorganic compounds. Edited January 25, 2017 by P0Pz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) You are taking the virus label to mean a biological virus as we understand it, but this is a virus that is intelligent, takes over and modifies inanimate objects and machines (not just organic creatures) and builds its own structures outside of any organic host. Organic creatures are merely convenient platforms for its colonies, not an absolutely necessary requirement for survival. If anything, I get the impression of a civilisation of microscopic entities capable of fantastic feats of engineering. That's what I would compare it to, rather than a real life virus. Edited January 25, 2017 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 14 hours ago, Unholyrequiem said: Because you seem to be under the impression it's some kind of clone but that's not really possible. A clone is a being that shares identical DNA(Normally being that reproduce asexually like flowers) with another being. Furthermore the Virus has been demonstrated to leave signs of the original host intact as seen in all infested except for the older infested who have overgrown their host's features altogether(Ancients, Lephantis, Juggernauts). So based on what we DO know about the infested, it's logical to assume that if you infest a Kubrow then signs of the Kubrow would be left behind. But rather than Infested strain+Kubrow= Infested Charger(Kubrow) we end up with the exact same result with the same features as Infested strain+Grineer Lancer= Infested Charger(Grineer). we know very little about the infested. We know less about the infested the Orokin created as weapons before they ran wild. All these definites people are throwing out of what can and cannot happen are based on nothing from the actual game lore. The only thing we got is that the ship like an Infested colony in it that is fearful of the tenno and listens to it. And because of that a charger can be created that follows you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholyrequiem Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said: we know very little about the infested. We know less about the infested the Orokin created as weapons before they ran wild. All these definites people are throwing out of what can and cannot happen are based on nothing from the actual game lore. The only thing we got is that the ship like an Infested colony in it that is fearful of the tenno and listens to it. And because of that a charger can be created that follows you. That's quite a fallacy you got there especially given that what you just said invalidates your own argument and is very self defeating. Using logic and reasoning based on lore and observation to deduce that the helminth charger should not reproduce an infested grineer. Assuming that the helminth strain of the infested Virus has really been isolated from the entire universe for an incredibly long time then there's literally no way it would have come into contact with grineer lancers especially in modern times because the Orbiter dates back to the days of the Orokin and is a vessel that according to the War within that only Tenno who possess transference can use. Furthermore, if it did have the ability to completely overwrite the original host in such a manner that it could represent an entirely different being then why would we ever see grineer or corpus infested when the infestation could just completely wipe out any trace of the original host to resemble the ancients or even lephantis which mind you are the older infested who are way more durable and resourceful. Think about the crawlers and how incredibly inefficient that it is in that it literal crawls slowly towards you, why not grow it legs or something to make it move faster? I mean if anything it's a clear indicative sign that that level of transformation takes time and doesn't happen within a few hours. Edited January 26, 2017 by Unholyrequiem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 ... ... ... 11 hours ago, schilds said: You are taking the virus label to mean a biological virus as we understand it, but this is a virus that is intelligent, takes over and modifies inanimate objects and machines (not just organic creatures) and builds its own structures outside of any organic host. Organic creatures are merely convenient platforms for its colonies, not an absolutely necessary requirement for survival. If anything, I get the impression of a civilisation of microscopic entities capable of fantastic feats of engineering. That's what I would compare it to, rather than a real life virus. You indirectly said what i did: ANY LIFEFORM needs ENERGY to exist. How they get it by witch source(s) differs. Some use 1 way some can switch between different sources. But 1 fact is clear: A VIRUS NEEDS A HOST. A virus CAN NOT COMPLETELY change the hosts biologic given form bc it will kill host and it selfe. Your excample with like corpus drones is the same. The virus could place somwhere into it a spor with a host. Which used A: heat or B: light radiation C: direct plugged into the power supply linie to fish out energy. Gaining it, provides 1: grow 2: Reproduce 3: respond to theire environment 4: exhibit organization on many levels. As long the organism energy carrier can work with it. And this is another big part of life existing. A virus is ALWAYS considert SMART. It is a PREDATOR. Any predator has to hunt and defeat his victims defends, to get his life energy. This is the point. No energy No life. THE LORE AND INGAME tells us about DNA using. I do not say the infested kubrow can not exist. What i say ... the combination of 2 different DNA (host + virus) can not totaly IGNORE the hosts DNA given apearings. IMPOSSIBLE. Host life form will die and can not give energy to the virus to grow. ~ Both die. No matter what the lore will try to say. It is ignoring importent facts if they won't inser the host parts. But as the HOLE infested "things" shown ingame to us..are correct. All have somehow still host-parts on the creature. Which is CORRECT. SOOO ... Where is the kubrow here ? 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Quote there's literally no way it would have come into contact with grineer lancers Except that it infected your frame and travelled with you everywhere for a week. What was that if not an information gathering exercise? Quote why not grow it legs or something to make it move faster Aren't you assuming a lot about the motivations of a virus and the purpose to which they put their colonies? There are immobile infested blobs everywhere in infested ships. All we know is that they don't make every colony highly mobile. Also, we only see the macro level behaviour of a colony, we have no idea what is going on inside it. How does mobility serve the residents of a colony? We don't know. Quote Furthermore, if it did have the ability to completely overwrite the original host in such a manner that it could represent an entirely different being then why would we ever see grineer or corpus infested when the infestation could just completely wipe out any trace of the original host to resemble the ancients or even lephantis which mind you are the older infested who are way more durable and resourceful. For the same reason that humans don't normally radically alter the landscape of our cities - well, at least not straight away. It's not that we can't, it's just that it's expensive and impractical. However humans can choose to do impractical, expensive things if they want. Quote I mean if anything it's a clear indicative sign that that level of transformation takes time and doesn't happen within a few hours. Sure, and we had it sitting in an incubator specifically designed to assist growth. What else is the "mature for combat" option that instantly turns a kubrow from a pup into an adult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) @P0Pz Those are quite a few assumptions about what an intelligent fantasy virus, seemingly capable of working with any material, does or does not need. Edited January 26, 2017 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, schilds said: @P0Pz Those are quite a few assumptions about what an intelligent fantasy virus, seemingly capable of working with any material, does or does not need. Lol some never give up to understand what could and what could NEVER happends. A virus is ALWAYS SMART. Predator !! Fantasy or not.. if you talk about a "virus" then it is a virus that has basic rules to exist. Starting with A: Host to gain energy to exist and generat offspring. No matter what fantasy 😉 Where is the kubrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) @P0Pz What are those blobs strung up all around infested ships, if not hostless colonies, built around no particular form, that have to source energy and nutrients from the external environment rather than have them provided by a host? Don't forget the thing was growing in an incubator that must also have been providing energy and material. You keep repeating "virus" "virus" as if the best comparison is a real world virus. This is clearly not the case. The best comparison is real world human civilisation. Sure, humans need an environment in which to live, but we are more than capable of drastically remodelling that environment even as we live in it. Edited January 26, 2017 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Imagine you give humans a space station on which to live, a nearby source of material (asteroids, gas clouds, etc) and a blueprint for a very different kind of space station. It is entirely possible for us to totally refashion the station, even as we are living in it, into the new one, according to the blueprint. Naturally we would have to be careful of the order in which we do things, and to provide scaffolding while we remodel critical systems like life support. It would be complicated, but it's possible. You know what, the virus we put into the egg isn't even in such a dire situation, it's living in an incubator (that provides all kinds of stuff) while the remodelling is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 2 minutes ago, schilds said: @P0Pz What are those blobs strung up all around infested ships, if not hostless colonies, built around no particular form, that have to source energy and nutrients from the external environment rather than have them provided by a host? Don't forget the thing was growing in an incubator that must also have been providing energy and material. You keep repeating "virus" "virus" as if the best comparison is a real world virus. This is clearly not the case. The best comparison is real world human civilisation. Energy buddy.. energy... I said and will repeat: Any life form needs ENERGY. 16 minutes ago, P0Pz said: Your excample with like corpus drones is the same. The virus could place somwhere into it a spor with a host. Which used A: heat or B: light radiation C: direct plugged into the power supply linie to fish out energy. Gaining it, provides 1: grow 2: Reproduce 3: respond to theire environment 4: exhibit organization on many levels. As long the organism energy carrier can work with it. And this is another big part of life existing. There is ya answer to all your questions. And if you compare it to us humans... We are all generated by multi organic cells. Which includes a looot of bacteria within us. You think we humans can exist without them? Nope we would die. Why? They co-exist with us while granting our human body energy gaining tools or/and creating them. Some even transport them for us or do other importend things. That is the reason why NASA or any one will take bacterias with them if planing to build a out in space colony. A virus is our direct organsim predator. Straight a fact ~ to all organic life forms. A virus is able to change his own dna or form. Just to stealth it agains the organism defends to get energy, reproduce and generate offspring. While it is also able to change some cells from host which can create deforming "out-breaking" forms ON/AT HOST. But not make a magic spell to *bufff* host oh host i just magicaly make you disapear. IMPOSSIBLE buddy. Impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Give we're starting to repeat ourselves and go in circles, it's probably best to call this a day - at least until some new points are brought up :-P. Edited January 26, 2017 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 1 minute ago, schilds said: Give we're starting to repeat ourselves and go in circles, it's probably best to call this a day :-P. Haha there is always a tomorrow buddy But you know woot? I love such talking...bc i learn a lot about stuff i would not have read or informed me otherwise. 😉 Have a good day ! See ya tomorrow hehe ♡ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 You too, no worries ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 4 hours ago, Unholyrequiem said: That's quite a fallacy you got there ... THIS! +1 Man... i wish my english would be half as good as yours. Very very well written. May i ask you to write in your fantastic word using way, what i tryed to explain in my posts after yours? (Did not even knew the english word "offspring" 😅 btw ty google-translator hehe i try to get better...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChaotic1 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) I really don't want that ugly nidog. And you can be certain I will whine just as hard about having to pay for a skin as people whined about there not being a kubrow element Edited January 26, 2017 by TheChaotic1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 15 hours ago, Unholyrequiem said: That's quite a fallacy you got there especially given that what you just said invalidates your own argument and is very self defeating. i never stated that any of my possible ideas are anything close to fact. My ideas, just like yours, are pretty much just baseless since there is no solid lore on any of this. But i am not the one claiming that the charger breaks lore, you are. Quote Using logic and reasoning based on lore and observation to deduce that the helminth charger should not reproduce an infested grineer. Assuming that the helminth strain of the infested Virus has really been isolated from the entire universe for an incredibly long time then there's literally no way it would have come into contact with grineer lancers especially in modern times because the Orbiter dates back to the days of the Orokin and is a vessel that according to the War within that only Tenno who possess transference can use. And that's what i have been saying. Your assumptions are nothing but your own ideas that are not anything solid from the game. We have little info on what that lab is and it's purpose. It has weird monster fish under it. Quote Furthermore, if it did have the ability to completely overwrite the original host in such a manner that it could represent an entirely different being then why would we ever see grineer or corpus infested when the infestation could just completely wipe out any trace of the original host to resemble the ancients or even lephantis which mind you are the older infested who are way more durable and resourceful. Think about the crawlers and how incredibly inefficient that it is in that it literal crawls slowly towards you, why not grow it legs or something to make it move faster? I mean if anything it's a clear indicative sign that that level of transformation takes time and doesn't happen within a few hours. Like i said before, we have little info on how that little infested colony works or the lab. We know it follows the tenno and that's about it. That only thing you can infer from that is that it's different from the feral version of the infested. Which means you should not be comparing how the feral and tame one may work. We know that they can be adjusted to be something else. Alad V created a version, the Mutalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said: i never stated that any of my possible ideas are anything close to fact. My ideas, just like yours, are pretty much just baseless since there is no solid lore on any of this. But i am not the one claiming that the charger breaks lore, you are. And that's what i have been saying. Your assumptions are nothing but your own ideas that are not anything solid from the game. We have little info on what that lab is and it's purpose. It has weird monster fish under it. Like i said before, we have little info on how that little infested colony works or the lab. We know it follows the tenno and that's about it. That only thing you can infer from that is that it's different from the feral version of the infested. Which means you should not be comparing how the feral and tame one may work. We know that they can be adjusted to be something else. Alad V created a version, the Mutalist. If you can isolate some infested cells/proteins and find importend infos how they act with each other, you can change or modify the virus to a given point. But you can not tell a virus to do something impossible to do. Which is to live without energy. The HIVES need a "source" of energy. That is why it is correct as DE explains it that they use colonys to make them work (Spore colonys, excample mushrooms spores <~ While mushrooms fight agains viruses !!) <~ There are plenty of different energy sources for sure. To make sure before the energy is totaly used or goes off, it needs to switch from stationary spread to mobility spread theire offspring, to infest organic oganism that can move, as much possible to reach other spots to generate another possible spore colony at a spot with enough energy. Visa versa. Sain so...a infested creature, kubrow, can not be "ignored" as it is the core energy source for the virus within. The virus may take control or manipulate the "hosts" brain and natural given form to a given point. But never delete his host completly before able to spread offspring. ~ suicide. A virus will never do suicide. Never. It will always make sure it has enough "time" to jump over to as much possible hosts. It is impossible to leave a kubrow out in the visual combination of virus + kubrow. It can not create its own mobil organic version. It has to hunt like every predator his victim, to reach a enery source to grow/ reproduce & generate offspring. Lore has nothing to do with it. It is simple said true/could be... or... stupid/impossible trying to explain something that can NEVER happen. Edit: A virus Can not ADD energy to his host. It is consuming it. This means a virus is not only limited to it selfe how far/much it can "change" his hosts apearings before it leave "the egg" but to the current "available energy" within the host. This means To a Given point it is enough source to "create-change" something. Then it hits the limit border. Look a moderate sized fish + virus can not mutate to a whal. ~ not enough energy within. A dog + virus can not mutate to a elephant. ~ not enough energy within. Yet. A kubrow "egg" has the energy to create a puppy but not a full sized infested Runner with grineer but without a single thing from the kubrow host eeeh?! I ask you... how much energy do you think can this egg produce to A: breed direct fully mature and B: bigger then original Host Kubrow reaching mature linie after a given time (add/use energy by food) PLUS C: the energy used to delete ANY part from host kubrow to lool like it does now? Impossible. IMPOSSIBLE no matter what story you may create. This is not real. A lore has a lore reality within. Even here (talking about DNA, human roots ect.) It CAN NOT BE 😉 DE WHERE IS THE KUBROW PART HERE? Edited January 27, 2017 by P0Pz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 On 1/26/2017 at 4:47 AM, P0Pz said: ... ... ... You indirectly said what i did: ANY LIFEFORM needs ENERGY to exist. How they get it by witch source(s) differs. Some use 1 way some can switch between different sources. But 1 fact is clear: A VIRUS NEEDS A HOST. A virus CAN NOT COMPLETELY change the hosts biologic given form bc it will kill host and it selfe. Your excample with like corpus drones is the same. The virus could place somwhere into it a spor with a host. Which used A: heat or B: light radiation C: direct plugged into the power supply linie to fish out energy. Gaining it, provides 1: grow 2: Reproduce 3: respond to theire environment 4: exhibit organization on many levels. As long the organism energy carrier can work with it. And this is another big part of life existing. A virus is ALWAYS considert SMART. It is a PREDATOR. Any predator has to hunt and defeat his victims defends, to get his life energy. This is the point. No energy No life. THE LORE AND INGAME tells us about DNA using. I do not say the infested kubrow can not exist. What i say ... the combination of 2 different DNA (host + virus) can not totaly IGNORE the hosts DNA given apearings. IMPOSSIBLE. Host life form will die and can not give energy to the virus to grow. ~ Both die. No matter what the lore will try to say. It is ignoring importent facts if they won't inser the host parts. But as the HOLE infested "things" shown ingame to us..are correct. All have somehow still host-parts on the creature. Which is CORRECT. SOOO ... Where is the kubrow here ? 🤔 We have basically zero knowledge, again, on how the infested works. You cant use real world stuff to try to explain it. But we dont fully know the process either. You are going by the idea that you infest a kubrow egg but we dont know what actually happens. Im going by surrogacy. The eggs is mainly use to carry the thing until it can be live by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said: We have basically zero knowledge, again, on how the infested works. You cant use real world stuff to try to explain it. But we dont fully know the process either. You are going by the idea that you infest a kubrow egg but we dont know what actually happens. Im going by surrogacy. The eggs is mainly use to carry the thing until it can be live by itself. I am not "assuming or guess something" buddy. It is a straight fact: no energy no life existing. Dunno if you did not read ... 15 hours ago, P0Pz said: how much energy do you think can this egg produce to A: breed direct fully mature and B: bigger then original Host Kubrow reaching mature linie after a given time (add/use energy by food) PLUS C: the energy used to delete ANY part from host kubrow to lool like it does now? Impossible. IMPOSSIBLE Impossible The EGG CAN NOT STORE ENOUGH ENERGY to let the virus GROW + REPRODUCE + TOLALY (100%) DELETE/CHANGE the hosts natural appearing + Taking over the Hosts organism within. Do you know how muuuuuch energy this would take? The EGG stores natural enough to let a normal kubrow puppy grow. There is NO WAY this all can happen wether in this or lore reality. (Any lore has his own lore reality) And WFs LR does not accept that. As i said... a fish on earth or a alien fish what ever, with a size of lets say 40cm CAN NEVER BE CHANGED BY A VIRUS to a size of an WHAL with 10-17 meters. IMPOSSIBLE The energy within the host "EGG" does not allow anything in this direction. To change "natural given visual parts" of the kubrow is a "could be". But it can NEVER completly delete it. That is why you see at/on every invested organism, rest parts from the host. Which is absolut correct done by DE. This: virus + kubrow Egg = virus without kubrow is impossible. Not enough energy within !!!!!! Read my post above closly what i explained. Edited January 27, 2017 by P0Pz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) -delete- Edited January 27, 2017 by P0Pz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P0Pz Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 -double post - please delete- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now