Atterax build: Maiming strike or not?

[Kronxito]

I have heard about this weapon and finally decided to try it.

My actual build is:

Primed reach

Primed pressure point

True steel   <---- (may change this for another 60% damage/status mod)

Organ shatter

Blood rush

Body count

Berserker

60% damage/status mod (cold)

 

Im asking for improvement on this build or another one even more devastating.

Edited January 13, 2017 by ArionLightning

[THeMooN85]

https://goo.gl/T32mv1

or

https://goo.gl/MXY5V1

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by THeMooN85

[Kronxito]

thank you

[Xzorn]

If you're intention is to deal with heavy armor (What Atterax excels at) then you'll want a pure physical build or a 60/60 Viral status build.

A pure physical build looks like this.

Using Madurai IPS, Maiming Strike or Lasting Sting will allow a pure physical build to beat any other build in terms of dealing with heavy armor through bleed damage.

 

[Ditto132]

My build for use with Nekros:

This build is for if you have Maiming Strike mod.
Jagged Edge can be replaced with Buzz Kill.
Drifting Contact can be replaced with Body Count.

This build is for if you don't have Maiming Strike mod. Focusing on combo to build up damage over time.
Drifting Contact can be replaced with Body Count. But Drifting Contact is preferred here.
Berserker can be replaced with Fury.

I have to know your playstyle and what mods are available to you, to better give you recommendations.
Also you might want to watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBdzL96wlcQ

[ThunderZsolt]

I think true steel is a waste if you already have blood rush.

The question is that you want to go for a slas/status build (against heavy armor) or full damage. If you go full dmg, 2x +90% elemenatls are good, or 1 elemental, and maiming strike.

If you go for status, you need 2x +60/+60, more specifically viral proc, because it halves enemy HP for a short time (enough time for bleed procs to do their job). If you want to use maiming strike, @Xzorn already posted the optimal build.
I don't know the specific enemy levels where maiming strike is better, and where begins the viral proc outperform it, but I'm sure you can go so far with either build that you get bored sooner than your damage starts to fall off. (without naramon, surviving becomes even more problematic)

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

If you're intention is to deal with heavy armor (What Atterax excels at)

Atterax excels at everything tbh. It has so much range that it deals with crowds almost as good as the simulor (you have to go a little closer, and it doesn't restore enrgy - but requires no reload) if not outperforming it.
Also because of the range, you hit more stuff with one swing, meaning you build up the combo counter faster. Add to this the exceptionally high base crit chance and blood rush, and you'll have one of the best (if not the best) melee in the game.
Sure galatine has bigger numbers (except range and crit chance) but I wouldn't switch my atterax for it. Yes, I have both maxed and scored a lot of kills with both weapons.

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

2 hours ago, ArionLightning said:

I have heard about this weapon and finally decided to try it.

My actual build is:

Primed reach

Primed pressure point

True steel   <---- (may change this for another 60% damage/status mod)

Organ shatter

Blood rush

Body count

Berserker

60% damage/status mod (cold)

 

Im asking for improvement on this build or another one even more devastating.

you miss one essential thing...cut true steel and put in berserker !

[Kronxito]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

you miss one essential thing...cut true steel and put in berserker !

Read carefully again----> Berserker is in the build :-P

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

Just now, ArionLightning said:

Read carefully again----> Berserker is in the build :-P

ohhh then its good :) just cut true steel for another elemental. I suggest you to do 1 slash only build, 1 for status/crit , 1 crit and raw elementals

[Xzorn]

10 hours ago, ThunderZsolt said:

@Xzorn

Atterax excels at everything tbh. It has so much range that it deals with crowds almost as good as the simulor (you have to go a little closer, and it doesn't restore enrgy - but requires no reload) if not outperforming it.
Also because of the range, you hit more stuff with one swing, meaning you build up the combo counter faster. Add to this the exceptionally high base crit chance and blood rush, and you'll have one of the best (if not the best) melee in the game.
Sure galatine has bigger numbers (except range and crit chance) but I wouldn't switch my atterax for it. Yes, I have both maxed and scored a lot of kills with both weapons.

 

I find Atterax is rather mediocre against Infested. It's good against Corpus but I'd much rather use Galantine against late game Infested.

True Steel isn't a waste really. It gives you 100% more crit with Blood Rush, another level of crtis,

it's the 2nd best choice next to Lasting Sting if you don't have Maiming Strike for a Bleed build.

[ThunderZsolt]

13 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I find Atterax is rather mediocre against Infested. It's good against Corpus but I'd much rather use Galantine against late game Infested.

I find that atterax completely destroys infested. Not sure what do you mean by "late game", but as shown in the video, I had no problems against lvl200 infested, even though I messed up and lost my combo counter 3-4 times. My killing speed was fine until lvl250, after that I only topped life support because I was using Nekros. Other frames have damage buff abilities though, so it balances out desecrate imo.
At the end, I got rekt by AoE toxic clouds and Tar-mutalist moa goo - but having galatine wouldn't help me to survive either.

Spoiler

 

 

On a side note, galatine prime has the exact same status chance as the atterax, but has more damage = better against armor, while the atterax has better range, which means it is better when the infestation is swarming all over the place with unarmored units. Or I am missing something?

 

 

13 hours ago, Xzorn said:

True Steel isn't a waste really. It gives you 100% more crit with Blood Rush, another level of crtis,

My bad, I've thought it is only additive with blood rush - so you are right, it is not a waste, for sure.

However, as I've posted already, I'd use virulent scourge and vicious frost instead of weeping wounds+true steel. This way you have a status chance equal to a 3,5 combo counter weeping wounds, + you can proc viral, which amplifies bleed damage by 2x.

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, ThunderZsolt said:

I find that atterax completely destroys infested. Not sure what do you mean by "late game", but as shown in the video, I had no problems against lvl200 infested, even though I messed up and lost my combo counter 3-4 times. My killing speed was fine until lvl250, after that I only topped life support because I was using Nekros. Other frames have damage buff abilities though, so it balances out desecrate imo.
At the end, I got rekt by AoE toxic clouds and Tar-mutalist moa goo - but having galatine wouldn't help me to survive either.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

On a side note, galatine prime has the exact same status chance as the atterax, but has more damage = better against armor, while the atterax has better range, which means it is better when the infestation is swarming all over the place with unarmored units. Or I am missing something?

My bad, I've thought it is only additive with blood rush - so you are right, it is not a waste, for sure.

However, as I've posted already, I'd use virulent scourge and vicious frost instead of weeping wounds+true steel. This way you have a status chance equal to a 3,5 combo counter weeping wounds, + you can proc viral, which amplifies bleed damage by 2x.

 

Late game for me just means after Sorties. I try not to be specific about it because everyone has their own idea.

It's mostly because of Ancient Healers. They cause other enemies to ignore bleed damage and heal through it themselves. Which is why front-end damage works better against Infested. I find using Maiming on an Elemental build annoying as well. You have to use a single element / Buzzkill. I'd rather just use Galantine and get the stance multipliers and +75% health type modifiers which results in slightly better damage to Maiming slide spam but with less reach.

Viral effectively doubles your bleed damage but as mentioned both Madurai and Lasting String will do the same and since you're not sharing proc rate with Viral you maintain a 90% Slash proc weight apposed to a 67% Slash proc weight with 60/60 Viral attached to the build.  Two 60/60 mods is 52% but a 3.5x combo for Weeping is 65.8%.

In the end when I mentioned That's "what Atterax excels at" I mean it's what Atterax can do that not every melee can. Only 75%+ Slash with 20% Status or higher melee can make a good bleed build and there's even less that have 90% Slash.

[ThunderZsolt]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

It's mostly because of Ancient Healers. They cause other enemies to ignore bleed damage and heal through it themselves. Which is why front-end damage works better against Infested. I find using Maiming on an Elemental build annoying as well. You have to use a single element / Buzzkill. I'd rather just use Galantine and get the stance multipliers and +75% health type modifiers which results in slightly better damage to Maiming slide spam but with less reach.

Yep, I used an elemental build in the video, not a maiming strike build. It doesn't mean that the atterax itself is mediocre against infested, though.
I'm not trying to argue, just find the best solution together. See, if I wouldn't reply to you first, this info would miss from the topic 

 

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Viral effectively doubles your bleed damage but as mentioned both Madurai and Lasting String will do the same and since you're not sharing proc rate with Viral you maintain a 90% Slash proc weight apposed to a 67% Slash proc weight with 60/60 Viral attached to the build.

I know about lasting sting, but how does madurai double the bleed damage? AFAIK it only adds +30% slash damage

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Two 60/60 mods is 52% but a 3.5x combo for Weeping is 65.8%.

I haven't tested this personally (honestly don't even know how could I do it), but the wiki says that weeping wounds increases the base 20% status chance to 51,5% at 3.5x combo counter.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Weeping_Wounds

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

In the end when I mentioned That's "what Atterax excels at" I mean it's what Atterax can do that not every melee can. Only 75%+ Slash with 20% Status or higher melee can make a good bleed build and there's even less that have 90% Slash.

I see it now.
I think the range is what makes the atterax special, couple other weapons (including the galatine prime) can be built for bleed procs, this is why I didn't understand it at first.

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, ThunderZsolt said:

I know about lasting sting, but how does madurai double the bleed damage? AFAIK it only adds +30% slash damage

I haven't tested this personally (honestly don't even know how could I do it), but the wiki says that weeping wounds increases the base 20% status chance to 51,5% at 3.5x combo counter.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Weeping_Wounds

 

The bonus damage from Madurai IPS passives is increased by base damage mods like Serration, Hornet Strike and Primed Pressure Point.

0.3 * ( 1+ 1.65) = 0.795 = +80%

Since it's a pure physical build it's effectively +80% total damage. After you apply the Slash proc rate to each you'll get more bleed per hit out of Madurai than Viral.

Viral Status Slash Weight 67%:  

0.67 * (Status) 0.52 = 0.3484 = 34.84% Slash Trigger per Hit at 3x Combo

2x Bleed * 34.84% = 1.0452 x Bleed

Pure Physical Slash Weight 90%:

0.9 * (Status) 0.658 = 0.592 = 59.2% Slash Trigger per Hit at 3x Combo

1.8x Bleed * 59.2% = 1.0656 x Bleed

Maduari is mostly an option for frames that can already stealth, for obvious reasons. You can use Madurai with a Viral build but you can also use True Steel with a physical. In most cases it will yield similar competition to Viral status.

Weeping Wounds works like Blood Rush. It's multiplicative with you modded Status chance. I made a mistake in saying 65.8% was 3.5x. It's actually 3x combo.

(Base Status 20% *  Drifting Contact) * (Weeping Wounds * Combo)

[0.2 * (1+ 0.4)] *  [1+ (0.45 * 3]) =

0.28 * (1+ 1.35) = 0.658 = 65.8% at 3x Combo.

[ThunderZsolt]

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The bonus damage from Madurai IPS passives is increased by base damage mods like Serration, Hornet Strike and Primed Pressure Point.

0.3 * ( 1+ 1.65) = 0.795 = +80%

Since it's a pure physical build it's effectively +80% total damage. After you apply the Slash proc rate to each you'll get more bleed per hit out of Madurai than Viral.

That is a +80% increase compared to the weapon's base damage (100%), it is still a 30% increase if you compare it to the modded base damage (100+165%):

(2,65+0,8)/2,65=1,3

Viral doubles the whole modded damage, so that part is right, but with madurai you only get

1.3x Bleed * 59.2% = 0,7696 x Bleed

The result is slightly worse, but of course madurai doesn't take away any mod slots, so you can still use either viral or lasting sting/maiming strike + weeping wounds on top of madurai.

I would still use naramon even with frames that can stealth by themselves, because deadly intent has a 30% multiplicative crit chance, and shadowstep is a more foolproof invisibility (and nullifiers can't remove it)

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

(Base Status 20% *  Drifting Contact) * (Weeping Wounds * Combo)

Dang, Body count has burned so deep in my memory, I've even forgot that drifting contact also gives status chance 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, ThunderZsolt said:

That is a +80% increase compared to the weapon's base damage (100%), it is still a 30% increase if you compare it to the modded base damage (100+165%):

(2,65+0,8)/2,65=1,3

Viral doubles the whole modded damage, so that part is right, but with madurai you only get

1.3x Bleed * 59.2% = 0,7696 x Bleed

The result is slightly worse, but of course madurai doesn't take away any mod slots, so you can still use either viral or lasting sting/maiming strike + weeping wounds on top of madurai.

I would still use naramon even with frames that can stealth by themselves, because deadly intent has a 30% multiplicative crit chance, and shadowstep is a more foolproof invisibility (and nullifiers can't remove it)

Dang, Body count has burned so deep in my memory, I've even forgot that drifting contact also gives status chance 

 

I believe each instance of damage buff is calculated as a separate bonus of your base damage. ei 30% IPS would be 30% of you base damage added as Impact, 30% of your base damage added as Puncture and 30% of your base damage added as Slash. It doesn't care what your actual IPS numbers are. It adds it's own which is why it makes Pure elemental weapons proc Physical effects.

I have a picture from my testing a while back showing the difference.

Tested with Prisma Dual Cleaver Only the first swing attack. No others and always at 0x combo.

The result on a pure physical build are roughly double damage.

This is a less messy non-stealth and non-crit comparison without any multipliers.

95 Damage Vs. 217 Damage

In attempts to apply how I believe it works. PDC are 35 base damage.

35 * (1+ 1.65) = 92.75

92.75 * (0.3 * (1+ 1.65) *3) =

92.75 * (0.795 * 3) =

92.75 * 2.385 =  221.2

 

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Using Lasting Sting in a Physical Build a good idea? Do we get more damage or the same damage spread in a longer duration?

[shut]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Using Lasting Sting in a Physical Build a good idea? Do we get more damage or the same damage spread in a longer duration?

I'd avoid it. Doubled Slash proc duration isn't exactly a lot, especially on a weapon like Atterax that has very little wiggle room for miscellaneous mods. 

If you want to maximize use of Slash procs, I'd get Weeping Wounds (plus another Status mod, like Drifting Contact or a 60/60 if there's room) to make them appear more reliably.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

On 13/01/2017 at 9:32 AM, Xzorn said:

If you're intention is to deal with heavy armor (What Atterax excels at) then you'll want a pure physical build or a 60/60 Viral status build.

A pure physical build looks like this.

Using Madurai IPS, Maiming Strike or Lasting Sting will allow a pure physical build to beat any other build in terms of dealing with heavy armor through bleed damage.

 

At 3x multiplier ( if sustainable), replacing maiming strike for true steel would result in the same crit chance with no need to slide right? ( Im on console, slide attacks seem painful to me)

[(PSN)lhbuch]

11 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I'd avoid it. Doubled Slash proc duration isn't exactly a lot, especially on a weapon like Atterax that has very little wiggle room for miscellaneous mods. 

If you want to maximize use of Slash procs, I'd get Weeping Wounds (plus another Status mod, like Drifting Contact or a 60/60 if there's room) to make them appear more reliably.

TY. Atterax should have 10 mod slots lol...

[shut]

3 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

At 3x multiplier ( if sustainable), replacing maiming strike for true steel would result in the same crit chance with no need to slide right? ( Im on console, slide attacks seem painful to me)

You'd think so, but the calculation is currently bugged at the moment. Maiming Strike will actually scale with Blood Rush-- meaning that at a 3x combo, a slide attack will have a 684% crit chance. That's a 16% chance to deal 29.2x damage, and an 84% chance to do 33.9x damage. (If my calculations are right.)

The devs actually fixed this bug before, but it broke again with a week and they haven't touched it since. Once they actually get around to fixing it again, then yes, True Steel will be more effective than Maiming Strike if you can maintain a combo above 3.0x.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

You'd think so, but the calculation is currently bugged at the moment. Maiming Strike will actually scale with Blood Rush-- meaning that at a 3x combo, a slide attack will have a 684% crit chance. That's a 16% chance to deal 29.2x damage, and an 84% chance to do 33.9x damage. (If my calculations are right.)

The devs actually fixed this bug before, but it broke again with a week and they haven't touched it since. Once they actually get around to fixing it again, then yes, True Steel will be more effective than Maiming Strike if you can maintain a combo above 3.0x.

Wow, that makes Maiming Strike build kind of... broken? lol

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Using Lasting Sting in a Physical Build a good idea? Do we get more damage or the same damage spread in a longer duration?

Lasting String will double the duration of your Bleed procs which results in double the damage over time from them. The trick is you need to allow those bleed procs to do their damage which requires an enemy with enough raw HP. It also helps to have some discipline in knowing when to leave an enemy to die of bleeds as continuously beating on an enemy with any bleed spec is partially wasting your potential.

Lasting Sting is a better option for shorter Reach weapons like Prisma Dual Cleavers or Venka Prime. It's difficult to justify ditching Primed Reach on Atterax.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

At 3x multiplier ( if sustainable), replacing maiming strike for true steel would result in the same crit chance with no need to slide right? ( Im on console, slide attacks seem painful to me)

Maiming Strike adds directly to your base crit chance. If you have 20% base crit, your slides will have 110% modified base crit.. True Steel is multiplicative with your unmodified base crit. Even if you were to build with True Steel and Maiming Strike. True Steel would improve your base 20% and not the modified 110%. Blood Rush improves both of these however True Steel cannot catch up with Maiming Strike in current conditions.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

TY. Atterax should have 10 mod slots lol...

Yea, melee has 5-6 staple mods these days. It's really not very interesting to build a melee weapon because you only have 2 slots most of the time to work with.

[ThunderZsolt]

20 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I believe each instance of damage buff is calculated as a separate bonus of your base damage. ei 30% IPS would be 30% of you base damage added as Impact, 30% of your base damage added as Puncture and 30% of your base damage added as Slash

Yes, but only the 30% increase in slash damage increases the bleed DoT, this is why I didn't count the other 2

4 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Maiming Strike will actually scale with Blood Rush

True. This means that maiming strike will always add more crit chance, regardless of the combo counter

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, ThunderZsolt said:

Yes, but only the 30% increase in slash damage increases the bleed DoT, this is why I didn't count the other 2

 

The amount of Slash damage you do has nothing to do with the Bleed DoT you can cause. It's strictly your base damage.

The amount of Slash you have dictates how often you proc.

Either way, I went back and tested this again and Madurai doesn't seem add to your base damage. As I mentioned before each buff adds a % amount of your base damage as a particular damage type. It functions similar to the 120% IPS mods. Still though, Viral is only a choice if you don't run Primed Reach and if you don't run Primed Reach then Lingering wounds will still end up being better as enemies scale.

There's just really not much reason to use Viral + Slash, even Corrosive can beat Viral + Slash given enough required hits to kill an enemy. It's not a bad option. I'm just saying it's not usually optimal. There's a similar misconception about Tigris as well.

[ThunderZsolt]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Spoiler

 

The amount of Slash damage you do has nothing to do with the Bleed DoT you can cause. It's strictly your base damage.

The amount of Slash you have dictates how often you proc.

Either way, I went back and tested this again and Madurai doesn't seem add to your base damage. As I mentioned before each buff adds a % amount of your base damage as a particular damage type. It functions similar to the 120% IPS mods. Still though, Viral is only a choice if you don't run Primed Reach and if you don't run Primed Reach then Lingering wounds will still end up being better as enemies scale.

There's just really not much reason to use Viral + Slash, even Corrosive can beat Viral + Slash given enough required hits to kill an enemy. It's not a bad option. I'm just saying it's not usually optimal. There's a similar misconception about Tigris as well.

 

 

Thanks for answering again, it seems like I've run out of questions regarding this topic!

The tigris is another story, because you need 100% status chance for each pellet to proc, therefore you have to use all 4 60/60 mods, and out of viral+radiation, magnetic+gas and corrosive+blast the first one is the most useful combo with that low fire rate (although blast is really fun)