Concerns / Benefits Of The Clan Alliance System - Updated

[Blatantfool]

*sigh* You're quite right, of course. I don't decide that. Which is why this entire thread is an appeal to DE to see our point of view, not a demand or an attack at smaller clans. I like to think my posts are reasonable and fair, given the way they're shifting how I elect to play - and support - their game.

 

Limitless clans are a problem. Y'know what? I'd have no problem if DE said "Okay from now on, no clan over 1000 members can recruit more people. New members must join new, allied clans." That'd be fine. It doesn't break up our current system as we play it, it works in the alliances and it caters to new players as well. A "tier" of over 1000 would be introduced for events for those clans who existed beforehand.

So then why, exactly, are large clans a problem? Let's take this event. Clans of 1000 were asked to compete with clans such as Asuro and Broframe. No-one claims this is fair. Asuro has 3000 members and Broframe has 7000-8000. Thus, we have clans trying to compete with member-bases 3x and 8x their own size. Not right. But the current tier system in the new system is even worse! Clans of 100 against clans of 1000? That's a 10x difference?

Even asking a clan of 11 to compete with a clan of 30 is no different to asking a 1000-member clan to compete with Asuro, in terms or memberbase differences. Don't come here and state "it's a problem" when the solution is even worse, that does nothing to discuss the point in hand.

 

 Yep. The tiers in their new system need work. I think they need to make a split at 101-500 and 501-1000.

 

 That would make more sense in my opinion.

[Gryphticon]

As Warlord of Gryphus Tech Corproation, I fully support this new system only if.

1. Same chat for the entire alliance

2. Same dojo for entire alliance

3. Alliance will count as a clan in the events

Those are the only things my clan and I want when the system gets out.

[MangoMonkey]

 Yep. The tiers in their new system need work. I think they need to make a split at 101-500 and 501-1000.

 

 That would make more sense in my opinion.

 

Right. We can both agree on that. But that raises it's own question. If we cap the currently large clans from future recruitment and "grandfather" them in, as DE previously said, then the problem becomes DEs insanely arbitrary "tier" system. As it did in this event.

I find it slightly aggravating that, for some reason, large clans are being blamed for this system and being punished for it, when DEs tier-system demanded clans of 150 to compete with those who had 1000 members, a much larger problem than Broframe or Asuro. The issue is with how they run their events. Break the tiers up further, restrict currently enormous clans from actively recruiting (new users would adopt "offshoot" clans under the alliance system) and the system fixes itself as players leave or go inactive. To cover up the issues with their tier system by blaming the largest clans is just avoidance of the issues at hand.

 

No-one argues that limitless growth is a problem. But that can be fixed without destroying the current system, for those who enjoy it.

[Blatantfool]

Right. We can both agree on that. But that raises it's own question. If we cap the currently large clans from future recruitment and "grandfather" them in, as DE previously said, then the problem becomes DEs insanely arbitrary "tier" system. As it did in this event.

I find it slightly aggravating that, for some reason, large clans are being blamed for this system and being punished for it, when DEs tier-system demanded clans of 150 to compete with those who had 1000 members, a much larger problem than Broframe or Asuro. The issue is with how they run their events. Break the tiers up further, restrict currently enormous clans from actively recruiting (new users would adopt "offshoot" clans under the alliance system) and the system fixes itself as players leave or go inactive. To cover up the issues with their tier system by blaming the largest clans is just avoidance of the issues at hand.

 

No-one argues that limitless growth is a problem. But that can be fixed without destroying the current system, for those who enjoy it.

 

 

 I don't mind the tier thing - if they split things up well enough people might even find a way to like it. 

 

 That said - you know I honestly liked the older tier descriptions.

 

 What is the new one again? 10 -100-1k?

 

 I liked 30-100-500-2k. The only big change I'm thinking it needs is a split between 500 and 2k somewhere. Maybe call it even and put a split at 1k.

 

 Those sounded like they'd do the trick to me. 2k is a healthy number and it'd mean clans like Asuro and Broframe would do a hell of a lot less splitting.

[MangoMonkey]

 I don't mind the tier thing - if they split things up well enough people might even find a way to like it. 

 

 That said - you know I honestly liked the older tier descriptions.

 

 What is the new one again? 10 -100-1k?

 

 I liked 30-100-500-2k. The only big change I'm thinking it needs is a split between 500 and 2k somewhere. Maybe call it even and put a split at 1k.

 

 Those sounded like they'd do the trick to me. 2k is a healthy number and it'd mean clans like Asuro and Broframe would do a hell of a lot less splitting.

 

If they were hell bent on this system, 2k would be a much more palatable number. Asuro would split in half. Not ideal, but bearable. You'd only have half the chance to find the pick-up groups and games you'd want, rather than a quarter. I'm still very much against the system, for all the reasons listed before, but this'd be something of a compromise. I still think it's the wrong way to go, though, and doesn't solve the actual problems inherent in the system. In this iteration, you'd be asking 500+ player clans to compete with 2k clans. That's a 4x difference no better than the current 1k vs Asuro idea.

[AudioRejectz]

Cap clans to 1000, job done

[Blatantfool]

If they were hell bent on this system, 2k would be a much more palatable number. Asuro would split in half. Not ideal, but bearable. You'd only have half the chance to find the pick-up groups and games you'd want, rather than a quarter. I'm still very much against the system, for all the reasons listed before, but this'd be something of a compromise. I still think it's the wrong way to go, though, and doesn't solve the actual problems inherent in the system. In this iteration, you'd be asking 500+ player clans to compete with 2k clans. That's a 4x difference no better than the current 1k vs Asuro idea.

 

 Well an Alliance chat is a pretty safe bet so I would worry about pick-up groups.

 

 And like I said, 500-2k is definitely too large a gap. They'd need to break it up a little more for the sake of Events.

 

 

 500-2k isn't a bad gap when all it is in relation to is clan size. Events would probably have to have 501-1000, 1001-1500 and 1501-2k splits to try to make things as smooth as possible.

 

 Just like events would have to split DE's recent examples of 101-1k into 101-500 and 501-1k during events.

[MangoMonkey]

Thanks, AudioRejectz. What an utterly useless post! So glad you could join us to waste your own time, and ours.

 

 Well an Alliance chat is a pretty safe bet so I would worry about pick-up groups.

 

 And like I said, 500-2k is definitely too large a gap. They'd need to break it up a little more for the sake of Events.

 

 

 500-2k isn't a bad gap when all it is in relation to is clan size. Events would probably have to have 501-1000, 1001-1500 and 1501-2k splits to try to make things as smooth as possible.

 

Right. But if they're going to split it up like that, just do it with the current system? 500-1000. 1000-2000. 2000-4000+. Not a real difference in terms of ratio. The issue is that all the current problems are caused by an arbitrary and poorly-planned tier system. Any iteration of that system would require more tiers to be considered fair, and in truth, never will be. If you're going to alter the tier system to be more competitive, you can largely do that with the existing system.

The Asuro-Broframe-Warframe Japan kill count this event proved that there is more to the system than simple numbers - Asuro were pretty close to Broframe despite having half their numbers, and Warframe Japan was even closer to Asuro, again with half numbers.

[Gryphticon]

Seriously, pdx, your clan and you are over reacting. This system is fine, just put recommendations on how to make the system suitable for you, don't reject it completely -_-. I think it's a great idea and even you suggested a alliance system.

+ The system didn't even get implemented yet and it's only a preview so there's no way to know what's going to be the final product.

[MangoMonkey]

Seriously, pdx, your clan and you are over reacting. This system is fine, just put recommendations on how to make the system suitable for you, don't reject it completely -_-. I think it's a great idea and even you suggested a alliance system.

+ The system didn't even get implemented yet and it's only a preview so there's no way to know what's going to be the final product.

 

That's kinda unfair =/ I've given several suggestions in the last page of their topic as to why the plans are a problem and how they could be fixed.

[dreampuke]

Definitely going to avoid becoming a GM until this blows over.

[_FORASTERO_]

to be honest its DE fault from start  they should made member limit when they made this game like any mmo out there 

[pdxdubin]

And My clan had to significantly trim down to have a chance at the clan trophy. Hard choices, so I do understand the idea of dropping down in clan size and saying good bye to your friends.

 

This is the problem.

 

Why should clans have to do this?

 

We should just change the events in the first place.

 

I know several clans that had to do this.

And it's messed up. 

[Gryphticon]

The only thing I wish in this system is: alliance dojo.

Nothing more, I must say pdx, it was kinda impossible for me to even get close to Warframe Japan, they've got too much members, this will make things more fair.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Gryphticon

[pdxdubin]

Seriously, pdx, your clan and you are over reacting. This system is fine, just put recommendations on how to make the system suitable for you, don't reject it completely -_-. I think it's a great idea and even you suggested a alliance system.

+ The system didn't even get implemented yet and it's only a preview so there's no way to know what's going to be the final product.

 

Well I'm not complaining.

 

I did make a poll asking for an alliance system.

 

But for the idea of bonding with people and making clans more friendly.

 

 

I don't know what DE is doing, so I'm going to wait.

 

But a few specific parts of this alliance system eerk me because they sound pointless. 

 

 

 

And I made this thread to hopefully create some sort of positive point out of all my random blabber that might hopefully influence DE into changing some things within the system.

Like maybe single the 4 clans into using 1 dojo.

Simple things

 

That are going to make it very hard to manage, from what I can see. 

[pdxdubin]

The only thing I wish in this system is: alliance dojo.

Nothing more, I must say pdx, it was kinda impossible for me to even get close to Warframe Japan, they've got too much members, this will make things more fair.

 

You have more members then warframe japan

 

=,=

 

Its not about member count.

[pdxdubin]

 Well an Alliance chat is a pretty safe bet so I would worry about pick-up groups.

 

 And like I said, 500-2k is definitely too large a gap. They'd need to break it up a little more for the sake of Events.

 

 

 500-2k isn't a bad gap when all it is in relation to is clan size. Events would probably have to have 501-1000, 1001-1500 and 1501-2k splits to try to make things as smooth as possible.

 

 Just like events would have to split DE's recent examples of 101-1k into 101-500 and 501-1k during events.

Even that system was flawed.

 

Considering all the people who had to cut 100-500 members just to have the chance to compete.

 

DE is that really what you want us to do?

Why not just make the event, an actual event and remove the head to head competition part out of it.

 

So that even the smallest clan has a chance.

 

Just set a goal, and let the clan itself try and win their own trophy. 

[Gryphticon]

You have more members then warframe japan

 

=,=

 

Its not about member count.

Tell me, do you have spies also in Warframe Japan? It's mostly impossible to know their members count and currently there's 13 clans with 1K+.

I think they're bigger than us or they're just fatties farming 24/7. But I don't think that, that's why strength in numbers applies to almost everything.

[pdxdubin]

From my understand, lag was only experienced by clans of 4000+ people. So please, explain why these are necessary limitations.

Not to mention the bracket of 100-1000 is $&*&*#(%&. 101 people cannot be grouped into the same tier as 999. Especially since there are tiers of 1-10 and 10-100.

 

Lag was not even experienced for clans of 4000.

 

And as I said several times

 

All of our clans have room for cleaning

 

DE also forgot to put a log in date so we have no way of removing inactive members without going through support.

 

It makes it a pain in the &#!. 

[pdxdubin]

Tell me, do you have spies also in Warframe Japan? It's mostly impossible to know their members count and currently there's 13 clans with 1K+.

I think they're bigger than us or they're just fatties farming 24/7. But I don't think that, that's why strength in numbers applies to almost everything.

 

A lot of people talk to me.

 

They have about half your members from what I've heard.

 

 

And we have about half the members of broframe.

 

We almost won.

 

You see member count does not mean member activity or determination.

 

Its about rallying your members and having them WANT to win for your clan.

 

 

if your members don't care to kick &#! for an awesome clan, then that clan will fail.

 

That is how it works.

 

Going to work 

 

 

I will just put my faith in DE and hope that it is not some half &#! excuse to cut clans up.

 

I want a new UI and tools to actually manage 4 clans at the same time.

 

Stuff like that,

 

Tools and options.

 

But if that does not come with this update everything might go to S#&$.

 

And the clans will isolate themselves from each-other to some degree, if there are 4 separate clan chats.

 

 

AND I DON"T WANT THIS

 

meaning that DE has to get this right, or there going to shoot themselves in the foot.  

They already said before they don't want to split up clans.

A previous max of 2000 was set in place before.

Now its 1000.

All prior plans and outlook for the clan went in the dumpster when they released this on such short notice.

 

Which is why I'm trying to discuss the situation.

 

*walks to work*

 

: D

[Azure98]

Be happy they didnt go with their first plan and take the easy way out by dissolving all clans and then instituting the player limitations... They are actually putting in the extra effort to not completely delete the clans and are taking a far harder route than their original plans.
As for this new system all I can really say is.

Wait and see! Then go inevitably whine and complain on the forums.

[pdxdubin]

Be happy they didnt go with their first plan and take the easy way out by dissolving all clans and then instituting the player limitations... They are actually putting in the extra effort to not completely delete the clans and are taking a far harder route than their original plans.

As for this new system all I can really say is.

Wait and see! Then go inevitably whine and complain on the forums.

 

True and I realize that I am whining.

 

I requested to lock the thread.

What you said is completely true.  It was just that this came out of nowhere. 

 

There were just a few specifics that bothered me, and I don't even know entirely what there doing.

 

And by now i'm sure they considered the things I said. 

 

I think it will be a really cool system, I have wanted this for a while.

 

Thanks for the discussions :) 

Edited July 9, 2013 by pdxdubin

[Eisvogel]

It didn't came out of nowhere at all..... you knew it was happening... i even told you it would ages ago, Steve made a huge post about the future possibilities and it was pretty clear that such over-sized clans made some of the game features meaningless, that's how new content in U8 got massively burned in days as well. Well, the day has come and they have came up with a new system..... pretty efficient as i see it, compared to what other games do or have.

[WordsAreEnough]

I keep seeing in this thread over and over again that big clans don't want to let go of their dojos. That is more likely what the clan limitations are really about in the end. Dojos aren't supposed to be completely simple to throw together and I'm sure DE is getting tired of huge clans mowing through Dojo content. If you're part of a big clan and can't let go of your easy-mode dojo then you are likely the reason this is happening.

 

They never expected Clans to become this large, that's why they didn't have a cap before. Now they know they need one to make sure their content is progressed at a rate they feel is fair and appropriate. Be grateful the cap is so large, many games have caps half that size or smaller. If you have any suggestions for the alliance system then you should all really start a new thread that includes suggestions for needs from such a system, but don't expect that you're going to get to keep a communal dojo.

[Kracken]

after the big split I wonder how will the competitions be held...