UPDATE 6: New warframe trees balance issues.

[NexiKuro]

After logging in, respeccing my ember and switching to Nyx, I noticed the trees were diffrent. My first impression was that this was a step in the right direction if a weird one, since health and shield nodes are overshadowed by mod slots. I figured this would turn "speccing" into trying to max out the stuff you want(mods and abilities most likely) while trying to avoid the medicore stuff(everything else).

To see if there were any issues beyond that I compared some of the trees with the intent of prioritizing abilities and seeing if there were diffrences.

The results were that on the way to maxing the abilities:

Nyx got: 4 health, 3 powermax, 3 shields and 6 mods. So 16 items total combined with 12 ability slots she maxes out at level 28. I also noted that she has 10 total mod slots in her tree and she could reach one more mod with those 2 points.(so 7 total)

Ember got: 2 health, 4 powermax, 2 shields and 7 mods. A total of 15 meaning she maxes out one level faster than nyx at level 27. She has 13(!) mods total in her tree and could reach an aditional 3 with her 3 extra levels for a total of 10 at level 30.

Exca(prime) got: 3 health, 2 powermax, 3 shields and 6 mods. A total of 14 so he reaches his max at level 26, two levels earlier than Nyx. he had 11 mods total, I didn't check how much he could reach in those additional 4 levels, though I doubt its as much as ember.

After all this, Ember seems the clear winner. she has the most power max (which is the only stat not gainable with mods) and the most mods. balance wise this seems pretty broken to me, If some frames can get way more stats without having to sacrifice their abilities, how are the other frames supposed to compete?

the current (dead space-esque) system for trees doesn't work really work well as a speccing tree. Because it's more a system that lets you plan a route to avoid what you don't want while trying to get as much of what you want as (soon as) possible. It's not an issue if you can max everything eventually because then your choices are temporary.

I would suggest to remove mods from the tree entirely and award them at certain levels. They seem too random and powerfull to implement in a way where individuals could truly choose how many they would want. I suppose unlocking them at every 5 levels in a tree with 3 sperate trees might work and would give some (wanted?) choice in the matter.

I think the tree itself would fare best if it was replaced with a more traditional skill/stat tree. Like those in borderlands or guild wars 2, or any mmo for that matter. It doesn't really feel like there is any real choice or personal prefrence in the current system.

tldr; current warframe trees seem unbalanced. Though a step in the right direction, I think DE might have stepped in something accidentally. :(

I'm sorry if this post seems harsh, but I do feel that this is a topic that needs real discussion/investigation. Don't take it personally devs, I <3 u. :\

PS: why do cosmetic items have stats? I thought they were cosmetic? Does this mean we can get blueprints for them?

Edited January 30, 2013 by NexiKuro

[ChathSuaco]

I like the idea of making mod nodes awarded by level. It would make it so they can award on an incline. First at rank 3, then 6 9 12 15 and so on. The last 5 after 15 unlocked with orokin of course (what? I like the system they have for plat.)

This would keep the. Number between warframes static, and allow players to pick and choose what stats they want.

I think it'd make the whole thing more effective in general.

[Fenrisulfr]

+1.

Although in case of removing mod slots from trees, I suggest adding some other kind of passive skill. Sprint speed, or maximum stamina, for example. Or armor.

Anything really, just so we have balanced skill tree.

[Ryme]

There are max power mods. They are probably as rare as ability duration mods though.

[[DE]Steve]

Thanks for your note, we are intending to come back and fix up some of the more broken trees. "Balance" is a loaded term here - in some ways we want to create imbalances and increase uniqueness of differing builds.

"Cosmetic" items come with stats and are craftable. We'll see how that plays out but currently the goal is no item is purely cosmetic, again to increase the uniqueness of a particular build.

[neKroMancer]

Thanks for your note, we are intending to come back and fix up some of the more broken trees. "Balance" is a loaded term here - in some ways we want to create imbalances and increase uniqueness of differing builds.

"Cosmetic" items come with stats and are craftable. We'll see how that plays out but currently the goal is no item is purely cosmetic, again to increase the uniqueness of a particular build.

'Craftable' I love this word, thank you Steve!

OP suggestion, removing mod slots from the tree entirely is extremely good. Free players will be able to enjoy more mod slots when they exceed lv15. With Fenrisulfur idea, more passive - I think it's going to rock.

10/10 certainly would bang again.

[NexiKuro]

Thanks for your note, we are intending to come back and fix up some of the more broken trees. "Balance" is a loaded term here - in some ways we want to create imbalances and increase uniqueness of differing builds.

"Cosmetic" items come with stats and are craftable. We'll see how that plays out but currently the goal is no item is purely cosmetic, again to increase the uniqueness of a particular build.

thanks, I wouldn't mind small "imbalances" between frames, but mods seem too.. loaded/random/potent? to be part of that. Giving every frame a identical number of mods seems nice. I would suggest giving frames unique(combinations?) of passive stats through their trees instead of mods.(so what fenrisulfr said.) already said this, what I said + what Fenrisulfr said would be cool, especially if the added stats are somewhat frame specific.

How about giving 2 stats per node, like healh/shield/powermax + a frame specific stat? though that might be a bit confusing.

EDIT: oh and fast response! super awesome as always.

go Steve~ \o\

go Steve~ /o/

EDIT2: ps; did you guys check if embers lower arm was long enough to fit 13 mods? running around with 10 doesn't leave a lot of room for 3 more.. ;P

Edited January 30, 2013 by NexiKuro

[RabidWhippet]

I agree with what DESteve said, it is great to add uniqueness to builds, and since this is a PvE game, perfect balance isn't required so long as some frames aren't leaps and bounds better than another frame. You need to have pros/cons. If a frame has less mod slots available, then an increase in other things would "balance" it and add to the flavour of that frame.

I think Rhino is a good example, I think he has only 9 mod slots? but has 150 base armor compared to everyone elses 50.

The skill trees aren't perfect yet, but they shouldn't be 100% completely balanced and equal to each other, they should instead offer unique playstyle oppertunities. At the end of the day this is a skill based game, so if you are good at TPS's you will be doing ok, and no amount of nodes will make someone whos never played a TPS suddenly amazing

[NexiKuro]

I agree with what DESteve said, it is great to add uniqueness to builds, and since this is a PvE game, perfect balance isn't required so long as some frames aren't leaps and bounds better than another frame. You need to have pros/cons. If a frame has less mod slots available, then an increase in other things would "balance" it and add to the flavour of that frame.

I think Rhino is a good example, I think he has only 9 mod slots? but has 150 base armor compared to everyone elses 50.

The skill trees aren't perfect yet, but they shouldn't be 100% completely balanced and equal to each other, they should instead offer unique playstyle oppertunities. At the end of the day this is a skill based game, so if you are good at TPS's you will be doing ok, and no amount of nodes will make someone whos never played a TPS suddenly amazing

mods are currently to powerfull to be balanced like that, 2 mods > his bonus armor.

Also the current trees don't let you spec towards anything, all the stats and abilities are seemingly connected at random with little indicating that you're building towards something. The only thing you can do is take the stuff you want while trying to minimize what you don't want. I personally wouldn't really call that specializing.

Like I said the current trees are a step in the right direction, but we aren't there yet.

edit, btw where did you read that? I haven't seen any warframe specific stats ingame.

Edited January 30, 2013 by NexiKuro

[Ced23Ric]

Ember is also one of the weakest frames with nearly useless abilities. Also, power max is totally available on mods. I have two of those. Also, Ember is a caster-frame. Her initial stats are weaker, her role is casting, her casts are weak. Of course she has more power max. She is hardly a "clear" winner, because without mods, you cannot reliably gain +50 Health, +50 Shield or +25 Power Max - the other frames have nodes for that. Rhino has 9 mod slots, and I stacked Power Max until I reached 275 on him. With Power Efficiency, I can Charge for days. :)

[eelektrik]

Thanks for your note, we are intending to come back and fix up some of the more broken trees. "Balance" is a loaded term here - in some ways we want to create imbalances and increase uniqueness of differing builds.

"Cosmetic" items come with stats and are craftable. We'll see how that plays out but currently the goal is no item is purely cosmetic, again to increase the uniqueness of a particular build.

Regarding the statted "Cosmetic" items, are we going to get more than just helmets eventually? Im not sure how many parts your models are made of, just wondered if there was the option of later adding different chest or limb models(I would definitely go for some new legs for Ember....just saying) that could be combined in different ways, for different stats and builds. I like the look of the alternate helmets thus far though.

[NexiKuro]

Ember is also one of the weakest frames with nearly useless abilities. Also, power max is totally available on mods. I have two of those. Also, Ember is a caster-frame. Her initial stats are weaker, her role is casting, her casts are weak. Of course she has more power max. She is hardly a "clear" winner, because without mods, you cannot reliably gain +50 Health, +50 Shield or +25 Power Max - the other frames have nodes for that. Rhino has 9 mod slots, and I stacked Power Max until I reached 275 on him. With Power Efficiency, I can Charge for days. :)

weak? the damage reduction on overheat is what? 2/3 to 3/4 mitigated? on top of shields that's pretty slick. Also often stuns enemies in melee range and kills most of them for you if you're too slow(asside from higher level grineer). world on fire lets you kill things without needing a line of sight. firebolt is pretty medicore and her ring is too situational. She isn't the best but she doesn't seem weak.

The only problem seems to be that she doesn't seem to scale very well (the same might apply to fire in general), but I haven't found any power damage mods so It could be that.

health/shield mods drop often and they go higher than 50(possibly double if you're very lucky it seems), not that I've got anything asside from a couple of shields equipped on her(dat overheat).

PS: I'm on 300 power without trying on her atm, helmets are good O_o

EDIT: also she doesn't instagib things. That's a drawback too.

Edited January 30, 2013 by NexiKuro

[PlusEighteen]

"Cosmetic" items come with stats and are craftable. We'll see how that plays out but currently the goal is no item is purely cosmetic, again to increase the uniqueness of a particular build.

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea

If an item is cosmetic, I don't want to have to wear it if I don't like how it looks just because it lets me kill things 3% faster

[Ryme]

I would like to point out that the frames do not have much in terms of skills to begin with. Forcing specialization of specific skills does create diversity when you have 15 or so skills to choose from, and you are given the choice of 5-8 skills to define yourself. We only have 4 skills to begin with. Only 1 or 2 of those skills were ever considered "worthwhile" the rest have been skills that offered a bit of diversity in situational moments. Now, forcing players to choose among them, there is little to no question which skills will be "cut" to ensure the "good" skill is specialized into.

Even if all the skills were "rebalanced" to be equally effective, you will just end up with "one trick ponies" that will likely never experience the full range of what a frame can do with their other abilities. At worst, the defining skills of the frames will loose all value and meaning. Everyone will just become bland reskined copies of each other as they just try to max their base hp, armor, and shields; ignoring the skills and relying only on weapons.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Ryme

[NexiKuro]

I would like to point out that the frames do not have much in terms of skills to begin with. Forcing specialization of specific skills does create diversity when you have 15 or so skills to choose from, and you are given the choice of 5-8 skills to define yourself. We only have 4 skills to begin with. Only 1 or 2 of those skills were ever considered "worthwhile" the rest have been skills that offered a bit of diversity in situational moments. Now, forcing players to choose among them, there is little to no question which skills will be "cut" to ensure the "good" skill is specialized into.

Even if all the skills were "rebalanced" to be equally effective, you will just end up with "one trick ponies" that will likely never experience the full range of what a frame can do with their other abilities. At worst, the defining skills of the frames will loose all value and meaning. Everyone will just become bland reskined copies of each other as they just try to max their base hp, armor, and shields; ignoring the skills and relying only on weapons.

which is one of the reasons i brought up borderlands and guildwars. their trees consisted mostly of passive procs and boosts to skills/weapons. I dont think choosing between skills is very good idea, improving and changing how some skills work would be far more interesting. you could give out passives like reflecting a portion of melee damage or dealing elemental damage to people hitting you, one in x shots doing something extra.

the problem with this idea however is that the current system doesn't support it, you rely on the current tree for all your stats, abilities and mods. You can't really add even more things onto that.

One option would be to split it up into different "trees" one general tree that everybody has which includes skills/mods and base stats(that can differ per frame) and one speccing tree that allows you to point your warframe at certain aspects of its gameplay/abilities. general tree could* be maxable(It doesn't really have to be i suppose), you would only be able to spec into roughly 50% of the other one.

This would create a system similar but not identical to borderlands, if we should want that I don't know. I don't even know if I want it.

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea

If an item is cosmetic, I don't want to have to wear it if I don't like how it looks just because it lets me kill things 3% faster

I agree with this, the idea of having more things that affect how your warframe works is nice, but through cosmetics...

If they really want this the devs could concider adding a fusion/appearance option not unlike that of mmos, the one from guildwars 2 could work, where you can attach the appearance of one item to the stats of another. destroying one in the process.

Edited January 30, 2013 by NexiKuro

[Ced23Ric]

weak? the damage reduction on overheat is what? 2/3 to 3/4 mitigated? on top of shields that's pretty slick.

Also often stuns enemies in melee range and kills most of them for you if you're too slow(asside from higher level grineer).

world on fire lets you kill things without needing a line of sight.

PS: I'm on 300 power without trying on her atm, helmets are good O_o

Try Rhino. 100% invincibility. 275 Power without trying, no helmet required. Stun only works on Infested, afair, and Corpus giggle against WoF. And against Infested, Ember doesn't deal enough damage. I am talking about level 30 here, lategame. Taking a rank 30 Ember all dolled-up into a Mercury mission is pretty pointless.

[NexiKuro]

Try Rhino. 100% invincibility. 275 Power without trying, no helmet required. Stun only works on Infested, afair, and Corpus giggle against WoF. And against Infested, Ember doesn't deal enough damage. I am talking about level 30 here, lategame. Taking a rank 30 Ember all dolled-up into a Mercury mission is pretty pointless.

pluto*?

mercury is the starter planet. also WoF fares worst vs grineer in my opinion. Corpus lacks units to tank it, grineer heavies absorb almost all of it at any level.

But yea, everything but infested scales fairly well vs fire, while powers dont, asside from mods. corpus compared to infested is about 1:5/6 damage wise on her abillities. new high level infested zone is a cakewalk, the rest is overheat + guns :(. It would be nice if she had a way around the mitigation.

I wonder how well frost will do in the high level grineer zones.

edit: her ring of fire doesn't seem to scale at all damage wise, though it deals damage weirdly(50 vs corpus crewmen, 200 vs infected regardless of level). Also, it stuns corpus persons as does overheat, robots ignore all the things.

Edited January 31, 2013 by NexiKuro

[kirauriel]

After logging in, respeccing my ember and switching to Nyx, I noticed the trees were diffrent. My first impression was that this was a step in the right direction if a weird one, since health and shield nodes are overshadowed by mod slots. I figured this would turn "speccing" into trying to max out the stuff you want(mods and abilities most likely) while trying to avoid the medicore stuff(everything else).

To see if there were any issues beyond that I compared some of the trees with the intent of prioritizing abilities and seeing if there were diffrences.

The results were that on the way to maxing the abilities:

Nyx got: 4 health, 3 powermax, 3 shields and 6 mods. So 16 items total combined with 12 ability slots she maxes out at level 28. I also noted that she has 10 total mod slots in her tree and she could reach one more mod with those 2 points.(so 7 total)

Ember got: 2 health, 4 powermax, 2 shields and 7 mods. A total of 15 meaning she maxes out one level faster than nyx at level 27. She has 13(!) mods total in her tree and could reach an aditional 3 with her 3 extra levels for a total of 10 at level 30.

Exca(prime) got: 3 health, 2 powermax, 3 shields and 6 mods. A total of 14 so he reaches his max at level 26, two levels earlier than Nyx. he had 11 mods total, I didn't check how much he could reach in those additional 4 levels, though I doubt its as much as ember.

After all this, Ember seems the clear winner. she has the most power max (which is the only stat not gainable with mods) and the most mods. balance wise this seems pretty broken to me, If some frames can get way more stats without having to sacrifice their abilities, how are the other frames supposed to compete?

the current (dead space-esque) system for trees doesn't work really work well as a speccing tree. Because it's more a system that lets you plan a route to avoid what you don't want while trying to get as much of what you want as (soon as) possible. It's not an issue if you can max everything eventually because then your choices are temporary.

I would suggest to remove mods from the tree entirely and award them at certain levels. They seem too random and powerfull to implement in a way where individuals could truly choose how many they would want. I suppose unlocking them at every 5 levels in a tree with 3 sperate trees might work and would give some (wanted?) choice in the matter.

I think the tree itself would fare best if it was replaced with a more traditional skill/stat tree. Like those in borderlands or guild wars 2, or any mmo for that matter. It doesn't really feel like there is any real choice or personal prefrence in the current system.

tldr; current warframe trees seem unbalanced. Though a step in the right direction, I think DE might have stepped in something accidentally. :(

I'm sorry if this post seems harsh, but I do feel that this is a topic that needs real discussion/investigation. Don't take it personally devs, I <3 u. :\

PS: why do cosmetic items have stats? I thought they were cosmetic? Does this mean we can get blueprints for them?

After reading the first half, I have this to say

YOU CAN GET POWER MAX MODS, I HAVE A 23 ONE... Let me go get a screeny real quick. http://i.imgur.com/9a3sylZ.jpg

:D Now go on a scavenger hunt

EDIT: There's also sprint mods just so ya know http://i.imgur.com/Brs3sIG.jpg

as well as loot radar and enemy radar. There are no stats that you can get from upgrades that arent avaliable as mods other than ability damage or potency (though there is power range mods)

Edited January 31, 2013 by ProjectRay12

[NexiKuro]

After reading the first half, I have this to say

YOU CAN GET POWER MAX MODS, I HAVE A 23 ONE... Let me go get a screeny real quick. http://i.imgur.com/9a3sylZ.jpg

:D Now go on a scavenger hunt

EDIT: There's also sprint mods just so ya know http://i.imgur.com/Brs3sIG.jpg

as well as loot radar and enemy radar. There are no stats that you can get from upgrades that arent avaliable as mods other than ability damage or potency (though there is power range mods)

Not really disproving my point, you can easely get high level health/shield mods in excess of regular nodes(I have a level 27 green -> 88.5 shield), that doesn't seem to apply to power max. arguement was more mods is more better, especially if you're only sacrificing easily replaced stats.

EDIT: My point was that the current node system is insuficient to counter the pure advantage of mods and almost always will be. Which is why you might aswell move mods away from it, so it can be turned into a more conventional/functional tree.

Edited January 31, 2013 by NexiKuro

[Gestalt]

On my Mag, I just went for the shortest path to straight maxing Crush 3/3, then spend the rest of the points on trying to get as many mod slots as possible, which turns out to be 12/14 mods, leaving Pull/Shield Polarize/Bullet Attractor all at 1/3. And I see no reason to not respec this way. So for Mag at least, I sense we're not going to see many alternative specs.

Point is, this current skill system is obviously a work in progress, as the different frames and their skills are not even close to being comparable. As they work out the kinks with each frame and skill, buffing/nerfing along the way, they'll have a better idea on how to rework the trees.

[Volume]

lol

Ember with power max is pretty useless dude, all her skills are horrid. Fireball is like the least useful 1 skill ever. 75 damage with a 25 damage DoT tick, I mean, really? slash dash is like a 200-800 damage AoE for the same price, and doubles as an escape/mobility/closing skill. Fireball also isn't even instant. You press it and she does like a .75 or 1.00 sec animation that can't be canceled, and you take damage while doing it. It's pathetic.

Obviously mod slots are what you go for anyway, not power upgrades, especially since taking the same skill 3 times (slash dash) doesn't seem to boost it, and you need to actually get something that says like "radial blind BOOST" (of which there isn't one for slash dash, and is only one for radial javelin), so just go for the mod slots and get some power max/shields.

At least that's how I think it's the best way to do it so far, and currently my excal has like 550 shields and 450 health. Probably not intended, but yay for 11 mod slots. If ember gets 13, I might actually pro her, before they nerf it, but maybe they'll make her skills useful, especially 1 and 3.

Ironically with the addition of the chargers and grinders, her 2 became useful. Low level grinders will charge/jump on you, and instantly explode if your 2 is active. Yay for burning skin. Should still have a longer duration or cost less or idk.

[Indiscipline]

The balance is way off. Yesterday i thought its a step in the ok direction, but way off. Today i hate every single thing about the new trees. I ll give you a few examples. Let me say i mostly main Loki. And Loki had a blast this patch. Since Loki skill usage is something like 87% Invis, 11% Decoy, 1.9% Disarm, 0.1% Teleport the choice is pretty clear. Get 13 mods, max invis. Oh and you get at least Decoy 2. The power of my Loki close to doubled with 250 more shields that recharge 50% faster, 120 extra hp, 72 extra power. Its was pretty damn good before the patch, but now its a monster.

But at the same time my Ash is crying in the corner. Oh you want base stats? Well, no skills for you! My Ember is slightly better off since you can max overheat and get all the mods, but for a *spellcasting* class she is pretty damn disappointing. Afterall usage of guns vs skills is ~80:20 anyway so Mods are the clear choice.

So let me get a bit to the topic of "Specialization". It doesnt work in this game. Specialization isnt about choosing how to gimp your character the least. Its about choosing the method by which you get things done. This game has 4 skills per class! There are no complex skill trees. Skills are like a toolkit that makes your character effective, not trees of 20 radically different skills you can choose from to suit your playstyle. The current system does nothing except almost completely removing the usage of situational skills. After all you need shields and hp all the time. Why bother with Shuriken/Fireball/Shock and almost 3 out of 4 skills on every character that you can substitute with Guns. And further skill point value when comparing mod slots vs flat stat increases is double. Even more with dual mods. So there are no *choices*. Choice comes down to going down the skill path that takes the least of non optimal stuff. This is NOT *specialization*. Its just a further min max method by which clear alpha skill warframes thrive while the usage and investment in situational skills becomes the thing of the past.

I ll say it again. It doesnt work in this game. Specialization and customization come from choosing the warframe/weapon loadout. You can switch easily between missions and its that choice that changes the method by which you get things done. True meaning of specialization. Not the current 30/45 "path of least gimpage" system.

[Judgebanks]

Thanks for your note, we are intending to come back and fix up some of the more broken trees. "Balance" is a loaded term here - in some ways we want to create imbalances and increase uniqueness of differing builds.

"Cosmetic" items come with stats and are craftable. We'll see how that plays out but currently the goal is no item is purely cosmetic, again to increase the uniqueness of a particular build.

I sure feel unique trying to keep up with Lokis on my Rhino, "TONS OF FUN". With the change made to run speed, would it not be wise to make sprint speed increase mods a set number rather than a percent, that way when you use a sprint speed increase mods you would actually move faster as a Rhino.