Saryn Spore Question with Toxin

[(PSN)Crixus044]

I have read the wiki page many times and the information there is a little illusive with what I'm about to ask.

As far as I know, Saryn is said to be phenomenal with toxin and gas weapons. I have used this method before, but never really understood why. I'm just getting back to warframe after a long sabbatical and I want to hit the pavement as hard as possible, so I will say what it is I believe is the way saryn spores work and if anyone can help me, please correct me where I'm wrong.

This is how a clanmate described it, but I don't know if it's right.
Saryn casts a spore on an enemy. I then hit the spore with a toxin weapon dealing 2000 damage to pop the enemy. The toxin proc deals 1000 damage per tick and pops the spore spreading the damage. The damage spread would be (Spore Damage + 25% Toxin Proc Damage) Power Strength.

This is how to wiki describes it to me.

Saryn casts a spore. I hit the enemy with a 2000 damage primary weapon and a toxin proc, dealing 100 DoT damage. I then pop the spore, spreading that damage. The weapon has serration as the only base damage mod, so the  spread damage is equal to (Spore Damage + (Toxin Proc Damage * Damage Conversion * (Base Mod Increase))) * Power Strength

Please correct this if it is wrong. I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[AerinSol]

What makes it powerful is that it ticks for damage 4 times in 1 second. The toxin or gas damage gets added to those damage ticks.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, AerinSol said:

What makes it powerful is that it ticks for damage 4 times in 1 second. The toxin or gas damage gets added to those damage ticks.

I know this from playing. What I'm asking is how it adds the toxin damage to the spore spread.

[AerinSol]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I know this from playing. What I'm asking is how it adds the toxin damage to the spore spread.

The spore that received a toxin proc needs to first be destroyed. And it has to be a toxin proc for it to be added. Once that initial first spore breaks it gets spread to the others within reach.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

5 minutes ago, AerinSol said:

The spore that received a toxin proc needs to first be destroyed. And it has to be a toxin proc for it to be added. Once that initial first spore breaks it gets spread to the others within reach.

But how is the damage converted. That's my question. If I'm using an ignis (popular saryn weapon) and I hit an enemy with a toxin proc that deals 250 damage per tick, how is that damage transferred to the spore damage?

[Xzorn]

Spore's damage is determined by the Toxic damage you do on a Toxic status proc. The actual Toxic Status effect doesn't matter, only that you proc a Toxic status effect.

So at base value if you proc Toxic on a weapon which normally deals 1000 Toxic Damage then 25% of that 1000 damage will be stored and at the same time a Toxic Status proc will automatically burst one Spore. This is important from a stacking perspective since the remaining spores still keep that initial stored damage and each surrounding enemy struck by the explosion of that one spore will be added to their stored damage if they had Spores active.

EDIT: Scratch the auto pop Spores on Toxic status thing. I was confusing it with Toxic Lash which auto pops spores.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Xzorn

[(PSN)Crixus044]

55 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Spore's damage is determined by the Toxic damage you do on a Toxic status proc. The actual Toxic Status effect doesn't matter, only that you proc a Toxic status effect.

So at base value if you proc Toxic on a weapon which normally deals 1000 Toxic Damage then 25% of that 1000 damage will be stored and at the same time a Toxic Status proc will automatically burst one Spore. This is important from a stacking perspective since the remaining spores still keep that initial stored damage and each surrounding enemy struck by the explosion of that one spore will be added to their stored damage if they had Spores active.

EDIT: Scratch the auto pop Spores on Toxic status thing. I was confusing it with Toxic Lash which auto pops spores.

So is the formula from my clanmate correct?

If I deal 60,000 toxin damage and burst the spore, will I deal
(25+(60,000*25%) * Power Strength

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

So is the formula from my clanmate correct?

If I deal 60,000 toxin damage and burst the spore, will I deal
(25+(60,000*25%) * Power Strength

Yes, that's correct.

As long as the Toxic Damage produced a status effect.

Thought after refreshing my understanding of Spores. I realize it uses the modified base damage and not the Toxic damage it does. For an ability there would be no difference but for a weapon it would use your base damage after mods like Hornet Strike / Heavy Caliber. Much like Bleed functions.

A Lex Prime with base damage 150 using Hornet Strike has a base damage of 480.

A Spore explosion after being struck with that Lex would do.

(25 + 0.25 * 150 * (1 + 2.2) * Power

Edited March 10, 2017 by Xzorn

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Yes, that's correct.

As long as the Toxic Damage produced a status effect.

Thought after refreshing my understanding of Spores. I realize it uses the modified base damage and not the Toxic damage it does. For an ability there would be no difference but for a weapon it would use your base damage after mods like Hornet Strike / Heavy Caliber. Much like Bleed functions.

A Lex Prime with base damage 150 using Hornet Strike has a base damage of 480.

A Spore explosion after being struck with that Lex would do.

(25 + 0.25 * 150 * (1 + 2.2) * Power

So the more base damage mods, the more damage it does. Does this apply to Gas Damage?

And does crit affect this as well?

Edited March 10, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

So the more base damage mods, the more damage it does. Does this apply to Gas Damage?

And does crit affect this as well?

 

I'm not 100% on the interaction of Gas and Spores. I believe the Toxic AoE burst from Gas counts as Toxic status for stacking damage which according to the wiki is (Base Damage + Toxic Damage) / 2. However every time I've tried to verify that number in the past I got strange results.

Yea Crits counts, body modifiers do too. I've watched a Gas Lanka's head-shot blow up half a room with Spores.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Xzorn

[(PSN)Crixus044]

17 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I'm not 100% on the interaction of Gas and Spores. I believe the Toxic AoE burst from Gas counts as Toxic status for stacking damage which according to the wiki is (Base Damage + Toxic Damage) / 2. However every time I've tried to verify that number in the past I got strange results.

Yea Crits counts. I've watched a Gas Lanka blow up half a room with Spores.

Wow, that's crazy. Gas Lanka huh? I never tried it but I've heard a lot about it.

Would the formula for a gas lanka with serration and Heavy Caliber be (25 + .25 * 525 * (1 + 1.65) * PS? I have 229% Power Strength, so my spore burst damage be (25 + .25 * 525 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) * 2.29 = 1349.66875. That seems kinda low doesn't it?

Edited March 10, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

The wiki is sadly rather outdated. It describes how spores worked for the like first week of her rework before it got nerfed.

What is true is: Poison infused status proccs ((Weapon damage base x basedamage mods + poison mods + optional toxic lash) ÷ 2 aka 50% - affected by crit, combo, stealth, headshot) Influence the spore pop damage.

Pop damage takes a base of 25% of the "innitial base damage that triggered the poison dot" - dot damage x2, of the highest of all present poison dots into consideration before popping and thus spreading.

This effect will then be reactivated when fresh poison dots are infused on enemys.

Thus obviously works best with melee and toxic lash, ideally using naramon to gain the stealth, crit and combo multipliers on a weapon with max basedamage and poison mods. Spores act as effective multiplier like that which spread single relatively high instances of poison per hit to nearby enemys! (Poison dots, extra damage trough spore pop and spore pop defined toxic spread)

 

High status weapons with condition overload -

(multiplicative x1,6 multiplier for each present status, meaning that mixed damage weapons like mios could give up to 3-4 status types(slash+ puncture, blast and electric. Impact and corrosive do not count),  next to the 2 present types toxic and viral and thus up to a up to 16(!) times multiplier all by itself , next to stuff like stealth and crit (maiming strike), further amplified by, common example, fire (ember -x26,8), ice (frost -x42,9), radiation (loki/oberon -x68,6), magnetic (zephyr, mag??, synoid simulor- up to solid 109x) from frames or weapons.)

-may also give similar/better results on the long run. It's kinda unclear tho if or if not this would affect Saryns spores, thus the damage amplifying and spread as Condition overload affects "melee damage". Could behave similar to combo or be completely ignored in the calculation. Neather is mentioned anywhere. A rather attractive option for saryn as multi status frame with melee synergy regardless.

 

What is not mentioned, was changed or may just be rather unclear is:

* each toxic dot only counts once. Meaning that you can't scale it up infinitly. The first instance of poison damage that reactivates the spread is the milestone for the future damage untill a new spore is destroyed.

*Spread toxic status trough the spores may have the basedamage of the destruction as base but is also ignored in future spore valuations, what also limits poison scaling

* also- decoy spread spores will NOT get the  bonis or multipliers since you do not actually damage the decoy. Rather power efficiency measure to spread innitial spores 

---all poison does is therefore boosting damage on target and spreading toxin off this base to up to 3 enemys at once, no matter how many spores you destroy, untill it gets infused with a new dot.

Edited March 10, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

* each toxic dot only counts once. Meaning that you can't scale it up infinitly. The first instance of poison damage that reactivates the spread is the milestone for the future damage untill a new spore is destroyed.

*Spread toxic status trough the spores may have the basedamage of the destruction as base but is also ignored in future spore valuations, what also limits poison scaling

I just tested this.

Appears to be true. You can pile as many Toxic dots as you want onto an enemy and the resulting explosion when you pop a spore is the largest proc you did and not the sum of all procs. Each Spore pop after that will still be the same result. It's a shame this was changed.  I didn't bother much with Toxic on Saryn as it was. Power Strength is still good though due to Venom Dose / Toxic Lash.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I just tested this.

Appears to be true. You can pile as many Toxic dots as you want onto an enemy and the resulting explosion when you pop a spore is the largest proc you did and not the sum of all procs. Each Spore pop after that will still be the same result. It's a shame this was changed.  I didn't bother much with Toxic on Saryn as it was. Power Strength is still good though due to Venom Dose / Toxic Lash.

I can understand them in a way...just reflecting dots on masses scaled them up into millions, the reality of the current version is just lash support tho, what isn't the ideal eather....especially as they keep nerfing this mechanic >.> 

I can't stress this enough but they implemented nidus allready, a frame who indeed does more then enough damage. Can't saryn have nice things as well?