Orokin Catalysts/Reactors NEED to Change: A letter to the Game Devs

[Aggh]

No my solution is to use your head.

If you dont want to sell your stuff to make space then dont fill it up and wait.

If you are spending cash on orokin spend it on things you will definitely not sell.

If you have the money to orokin up EVERY SINGLE gun and Warframe in your inventory that you dont want to sell them later be a bit smart and dont orokin one thing and spend the plat on more slots.

There are many ways to go about this if you UNDERSTAND that, yes, there are limits.

You don't seem to get it. If people are waiting, they're not progressing through content. That means that they're playing less. That's bad.

It's the same issue with the alert system. F2p systems are supposed to maintain a player base for the small paying player base to have someone to play with at all times. If f2p players have a high turn over rate because they're hitting a progression wall and have to keep on giving up stuff they've put a lot of time into, you're not going to have that population for the p2p players to play, which in turn will mean that they might not play as much either.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Aggh

[Mak_Gohae]

You don't seem to get it. If people are waiting, they're not progressing through content lol. That's bad.

Why are they not progressing through the content lol?

You can still play the game, it's not impossible by the largest margin to play the game without orokin in your stuff.

[Zmajlajka]

If this Aggh is the one i know from BLR then he KNOWS what hees talking bout.

[Albinobunny]

Why are they not progressing through the content lol?

You can still play the game, it's not impossible by the largest margin to play the game without orokin in your stuff.

This is the argument:

1) I like to progress, the current free to play system puts a cap on that

2) lol I know it does but just keep playing and keep slots free

3) I can't keep slots free because that would mean not playing once I've maxed out one frame/7 weapons

4) lol but you can just keep playing and keep slots free.

Seriously if you don't understand what you're talking about don't argue against it. You're points are practically agreeing with us except you think it's a fine model when there have being several others proposed in this thread that are more beneficial to every player on the basis that 'lol they need money'

Except as I pointed out, I play five free to play games (TF2, DOTA2, League of Legends, World of tanks) and none of them need to impose S#&$y limits on you in order to create cash.

World of tanks is the closest in that it charges for two things comparable to the S#&$ty aspects of Warframes model:

1) Monthly XP boost from subscription is comparable to Orokin upgrades. The difference here is that:

a) I can still progress (albeit slowly) without paying a dime as opposed to progressing randomly whenever the alert system throws me a bone

b) The purchase of subscription functions as a bonus not a tax. I never HAVE to get a subscription to them. I do it because I feel like progressing faster. In Warframe if I never get lucky with alerts you literally have to pay to progress.

2) limited tank bays is comparable to limited weapon/warframe bays except when it comes to WoT there's realistically:

Artillery

Light

Medium

Heavy

And if you have one of those you'll most likely have a tank of every role. There may be a difference between the Leopard and the T-52's scouting tank styles but they're still both scouting tanks.

On the flip side with in warframe every frame is:

a) designed to be played excessively, unlikes WoT which is set up to be selling one tank for another upgraded one

b) bringing wildly variable playstyles into play

Having to sell a maxed warframe isn't an enjoyable thing, or a nice trade off. Same goes for guns.

I'm down with charging for inventory space because F*** it, it's mods, not that big a deal. Charging for the ability to gain a variety of play is dumb and will drive players away.

[Zmajlajka]

the biggest thing bout Catalysts is that without em there is no sense of progression, there is no weapon advancement and after a while it just gets frustrating and no fun.

As i stated before in an earlier post i played a whole week til about 3AM keeping watch to all alerts without any luck on Orokin or anything useful and then just 1 evening i fell asleep and sleep over 5 freakin "?" Alerts in a row?! Of course there was a Catalyst with em... It gets not only me than quite a few other players to the edge of quitting the game out of rage for the RNG of those alerts. This global thing is not working out so gret...So CHANGE IT!!

Im now on a pause with the game as all my weapons are rank 30(6/8 without catalysts), all my warframes are maxed out, all my inventory slots are full, all the maps are done, crafting materials that i have in abundance to make all of the warframes possible, but nowhere to put em as i dont wanna part with my current ones. So that is what stresses me out, thats what needs to change. Make those catalysts more player friendly and do some cosmetic items and make your money with em instead.

[Meltina]

Soloing a level 30-55 mission is difficult with or without the reactor. The only way ANYONE can survive such missions alone is by using every inventory slot, some sound tactics, and a bit of luck. Dont act like people with reactors are waltzing two-shotting the boss and shuffling out. Outside of using the Snipertron, that is.

Rofl obvously you never used a reactored weapon and frame. Those 40-55 areas are cake walks most they require is 1-2 ammo boxes when you do have the reactors. I can stand in the bosses face and shoot him with the hek which is more than 25% stronger with catalist til lhe dies. I don't have to even dodge or take cover. I just pop my skills and stand in his face. With the mod slots i can keep the power duration and effency mods for boss killing while still having 700 shields for fighting my way through the stage. I have only average quality mods I don't have any good double mods for my shotgun yet even but It still only takes 1-3 shots to kill most things just the boost to base damage and extra mod slot are huge. Good luck doing any long skill combo without an reactor the basline sets cripple alot of skills as they are pretty unusable untill you boost them. Ash smoke bomb, link, energy vampire, and iron skill get huge usablity upgrades with the reactor. An unreactored Trinity gets a 5 second link with a full mod set while a reactored Trinity gets 6 and can mod to a 39 second link. Heck with energy syphon and the right mod set I bet a rhino can keep up perma iron skin or atleast get about 5 mins of stright uptime in a bar of energy.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Meltina

[Ced23Ric]

Denying that Orokin items give a boost of over 50% to power/durability is deliberate blindness. *shrug*

[Mak_Gohae]

This is the argument:

1) I like to progress, the current free to play system puts a cap on that

2) lol I know it does but just keep playing and keep slots free

3) I can't keep slots free because that would mean not playing once I've maxed out one frame/7 weapons

4) lol but you can just keep playing and keep slots free.

Seriously if you don't understand what you're talking about don't argue against it. You're points are practically agreeing with us except you think it's a fine model when there have being several others proposed in this thread that are more beneficial to every player on the basis that 'lol they need money'

Your argument is, "I want everything!"

My argument is, "Make a choice."

If we are going to boil down everything to it's simplest form.

Except as I pointed out, I play five free to play games (TF2, DOTA2, League of Legends, World of tanks) and none of them need to impose S#&$y limits on you in order to create cash.

World of tanks is the closest in that it charges for two things comparable to the S#&$ty aspects of Warframes model:

1) Monthly XP boost from subscription is comparable to Orokin upgrades. The difference here is that:

a) I can still progress (albeit slowly) without paying a dime as opposed to progressing randomly whenever the alert system throws me a bone

b) The purchase of subscription functions as a bonus not a tax. I never HAVE to get a subscription to them. I do it because I feel like progressing faster. In Warframe if I never get lucky with alerts you literally have to pay to progress.

2) limited tank bays is comparable to limited weapon/warframe bays except when it comes to WoT there's realistically:

Artillery

Light

Medium

Heavy

And if you have one of those you'll most likely have a tank of every role. There may be a difference between the Leopard and the T-52's scouting tank styles but they're still both scouting tanks.

On the flip side with in warframe every frame is:

a) designed to be played excessively, unlikes WoT which is set up to be selling one tank for another upgraded one

b) bringing wildly variable playstyles into play

Having to sell a maxed warframe isn't an enjoyable thing, or a nice trade off. Same goes for guns.

I'm down with charging for inventory space because F*** it, it's mods, not that big a deal. Charging for the ability to gain a variety of play is dumb and will drive players away.

PvP games and their system cant really be use as a total comparison.

Rofl obvously you never used a reactored weapon and frame. Those 40-55 areas are cake walks most they require is 1-2 ammo boxes when you do have the reactors.

Like i said......

I can stand in the bosses face and shoot him with the hek which is more than 25% stronger with catalist til lhe dies. I don't have to even dodge or take cover. I just pop my skills and stand in his face. With the mod slots i can keep the power duration and effency mods for boss killing while still having 700 shields for fighting my way through the stage. I have only average quality mods I don't have any good double mods for my shotgun yet even but It still only takes 1-3 shots to kill most things just the boost to base damage and extra mod slot are huge. Good luck doing any long skill combo without an reactor the basline sets cripple alot of skills as they are pretty unusable untill you boost them. Ash smoke bomb, link, energy vampire, and iron skill get huge usablity upgrades with the reactor. An unreactored Trinity gets a 5 second link with a full mod set while a reactored Trinity gets 6 and can mod to a 39 second link. Heck with energy syphon and the right mod set I bet a rhino can keep up perma iron skin or atleast get about 5 mins of stright uptime in a bar of energy.

So wait.... you are using two of the Warframes that can easily survive boss fights because of their skills as examples and you are boasting about the weapons? Do you NOT see a connection here? I 3-shot things with an unorokin bronco if i shoot them in the face too.... that's sort of the things with shotguns, they do MASSIVE damage if you hit at close range.

By the way, yes a Warframe with orokin is better but that argument isnt really there since you get plat enough for free to boost 2 frames at the start.

[Blatantfool]

Denying that Orokin items give a boost of over 50% to power/durability is deliberate blindness. *shrug*

Truth.

[Albinobunny]

Making a choice will drive people away.

Shockingly in a loot based action RPG (which this game has pretty heavy elements of) people don't like giving up their S#&$.

Also yes I CAN compare PvP games to PvE because the free to play model isn't effected by PvP.

[Strac_CRO]

I just got "orokin reactor blueprint" from daily lottery (for warframe, not weapon)

and I have only one warframe (with reactor installed, facepalm)

[Blatantfool]

I just got "orokin reactor blueprint" from daily lottery (for warframe, not weapon)

and I have only one warframe (with reactor installed, facepalm)

Congrats anyway. You'll need it someday I suppose. I recieved a Catalyst myself about a week ago. Feels great and all to luck out but winning at slots once doesn't add up to much.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

Denying that Orokin items give a boost of over 50% to power/durability is deliberate blindness. *shrug*

Who is denying that?

Making a choice will drive people away.

That explains voter turnout. HA!

Shockingly in a loot based action RPG (which this game has pretty heavy elements of) people don't like giving up their S#&$.

They need to learn.

Also yes I CAN compare PvP games to PvE because the free to play model isn't effected by PvP.

It IS affected by the fact the game is PvP.

In PvP games all you do is fight each other.... so why would they put serious hurdle stopping that?

You know what would happen if everyone had enough slots to have all the Warframes they wanted? Boss missions will result in one HUGE smoke bomb party as everyone picks Ash and they blind the boss for the duration.

I just got "orokin reactor blueprint" from daily lottery (for warframe, not weapon)

and I have only one warframe (with reactor installed, facepalm)

Dont facepalm that i got a reactor a long time ago that i am going to put to use now that i am building Frost.

Unless you plan to playing one dude forever, that is.

[Meltina]

Soloing a level 30-55 mission is difficult with or without the reactor. The only way ANYONE can survive such missions alone is by using every inventory slot, some sound tactics, and a bit of luck. Dont act like people with reactors are waltzing two-shotting the boss and shuffling out. Outside of using the Snipertron, that is.

Rofl obvously you never used a reactored weapon and frame. Those 40-55 areas are cake walks most they require is 1-2 ammo boxes when you do have the reactors. I can stand in the bosses face and shoot him with the hek which is more than 25% stronger with catalist til lhe dies. I don't have to even dodge or take cover. I just pop my skills and stand in his face.

Like i said......

I guess standing infront of enemies shooting them in the face is a sound tactic. Somehow using 2 out of 8 inventory slots is every inventory slot. With good mods you wouldn't even need the ammo boxes.

So wait.... you are using two of the Warframes that can easily survive boss fights because of their skills as examples and you are boasting about the weapons? Do you NOT see a connection here? I 3-shot things with an unorokin bronco if i shoot them in the face too.... that's sort of the things with shotguns, they do MASSIVE damage if you hit at close range.

By the way, yes a Warframe with orokin is better but that argument isnt really there since you get plat enough for free to boost 2 frames at the start.

Sorry I need to corret my self. I 1 shot things close and 3 shot things from across the grineer room with the shotgun. Sorry 3 shots was talking about 60 meters instead of point blank face shots. The 2 mod slots alone are huge. I would rather shoot 40 pellets a shot instead of 24. This is before all the other nodes which influence base damge so they scale with mods giving it an even bigger advantage. If somehow having more than double the damage potential isn't something huge I don't know you consider huge.

The point of the warfram bragging is that an unreactored frame can not do anything near what a reactored frame can do. 900 shields and 500 health is the survivabilty of 2-3 unreactored frames.

What keeps the f2p games alive is the grind. I already ranked 5 frames up to 30 without slots there would be alot less incentive for most people to keep playing. Most f2p games are kept up by a small part of their population the point of the f2p gamers are to be there to give the paying players people to play with. Lose the free players and the paying players go too.

I payed for platnum before the patch but now after the skill point change I would have passed on warframe because it is pay to win. Look at the rate reactors drop from the alert forums. They are so rare most people would play through the game and be done with it due to being finished with progression in the interval.

[Mak_Gohae]

I guess standing infront of enemies shooting them in the face is a sound tactic. Somehow using 2 out of 8 inventory slots is every inventory slot. With good mods you wouldn't even need the ammo boxes.

Mr. Smoke Ash and Trinity using that stuff is a sound tactic.

But i wasnt talking JUST about Ash and Trinity but including all Warframes.

Sorry I need to corret my self. I 1 shot things close and 3 shot things from across the grineer room with the shotgun. Sorry 3 shots was talking about 60 meters instead of point blank face shots. The 2 mod slots alone are huge. I would rather shoot 40 pellets a shot instead of 24. This is before all the other nodes which influence base damge so they scale with mods giving it an even bigger advantage. If somehow having more than double the damage potential isn't something huge I don't know you consider huge.

No one ever said that Orokin weapons dont have more bonuses than weapons that are not.

My point is that people can STILL go through EVERY SINGLE stage in this game without orokin weapons.

You are arguing something no one ever mention.

Anyone with a couple braincells knows that more bonuses equals moe better.

The point of the warfram bragging is that an unreactored frame can not do anything near what a reactored frame can do. 900 shields and 500 health is the survivabilty of 2-3 unreactored frames.

Again, everyone knows that but, again, this isnt really an argument because you are given enough plat to get 2 reactors and if you happen to only spend your plat on one by the time you can finally build a new frame if you dont pay for one you should have another reactor.

What keeps the f2p games alive is the grind. I already ranked 5 frames up to 30 without slots there would be alot less incentive for most people to keep playing. Most f2p games are kept up by a small part of their population the point of the f2p gamers are to be there to give the paying players people to play with. Lose the free players and the paying players go too.

I payed for platnum before the patch but now after the skill point change I would have passed on warframe because it is pay to win. Look at the rate reactors drop from the alert forums. They are so rare most people would play through the game and be done with it due to being finished with progression in the interval.

If you bought frames the plat package you got should have given you enough to get a reactor as well. If you are spending money on frames why would you NOT get a reactor as well?

For people who dont pay and only have 2 frames and only get one reactor by the time you finally get your second frame you should have another reactor unless you are some crazy maniac and play way too much.

[DetergentPod]

Your argument is, "I want everything!"

My argument is, "Make a choice."

If we are going to boil down everything to it's simplest form.

What choices can people make with only 15 skill point and 15 things to add without a Reactor?

Oh yeah spent 50 plat on either reactor/catalyst or shop. What is that going to do? It's going to limit the person even more. Now they can't decide whether they want to be stronger or have a few extra slots for weapons and warframe. These choices aren't the type of choice I want to make for a F2P. They're the choices of a game that tell you straight up to the face "Pay or stay that way".

[Kyuzo]

What choices can people make with only 15 skill point and 15 things to add without a Reactor?

Oh yeah spent 50 plat on either reactor/catalyst or shop. What is that going to do? It's going to limit the person even more. Now they can't decide whether they want to be stronger or have a few extra slots for weapons and warframe. These choices aren't the type of choice I want to make for a F2P. They're the choices of a game that tell you straight up to the face "Pay or stay that way".

also don't forget the 15 things above that that we'll never be able to touch since rank cap is still only 30... >.> still looking for that answer on whats the point of pluto being such a high level area.

[DetergentPod]

also don't forget the 15 things above that that we'll never be able to touch since rank cap is still only 30... >.> still looking for that answer on whats the point of pluto being such a high level area.

The point of supercharged and level 30 still not being able to add everything is to force you to make a choice. Whether you want offense or defense or even a balance inbetween. However the current skill tree is terrible in this case. Since you gotta unlock something that you don't want to get to something that you do want. Hence a waste of skill point which could be added to something much more useful.

[Meltina]

So giving examples of many things an unreactored warframe can't do is has nothing to do with catalysts and reactors being progression walls. Character progression is a big draw to these games. Diablo 2 didn't get harder and you complete it without the best gear but what kept most of the population in the game was the character progression and build options. Catalysts prevent character progression and warframe slots prevent buld options. Being able to level and play multiple styles is what gives games like this longevity. The frame limitations are shooting themselves in the foot once they start rolling out cosmetic options. Alts promote more purchases of cosmetics.

Buying a catalyst for a boost is fine but it should not allow me to run ahead of the group killing everything and the boss before the rest of the group gets there. Paying players and free players are together in the same games the free players have to be able to keep up with playing players. I can pull out my unreactored warframe and weapons then play with my friends and it just will be running into rooms of dead enemies with them speeding ahead.

[Kyuzo]

The point of supercharged and level 30 still not being able to add everything is to force you to make a choice. Whether you want offense or defense or even a balance inbetween. However the current skill tree is terrible in this case. Since you gotta unlock something that you don't want to get to something that you do want. Hence a waste of skill point which could be added to something much more useful.

i never asked for this feature! i was happy with 30 properly placed nodes :| Edited February 4, 2013 by Kyuzo

[Mak_Gohae]

What choices can people make with only 15 skill point and 15 things to add without a Reactor?

Oh yeah spent 50 plat on either reactor/catalyst or shop. What is that going to do? It's going to limit the person even more. Now they can't decide whether they want to be stronger or have a few extra slots for weapons and warframe. These choices aren't the type of choice I want to make for a F2P. They're the choices of a game that tell you straight up to the face "Pay or stay that way".

Dude, you can buy one reactor then you have enough to either get slots or a catalyst.

A reactor is something you should really take but the rest is really all up to you.

[stardust8ball]

Locked progression is bad for games. It's like playing a demo, except you can't just buy the full version to unlock everything.

Agreeing with the original post 100%

[Redler]

It just really encourage me to quit the game when I can't get what I want even if I play it everyday for a few hours but some guy could just wait and play the game for 10 minutes and got it just becuase it's 1 PM on his side of the country.

Let me grind for days or weeks for what I want just like how I grind for my Warframe.

The game just lost its charm after I spend 40 plat on potatoing Rhino and Hek (Which is goddamn early into the game). No reason to play other warframe or weapon. And then no reason to play the game becuase I beat all of them solo with Rhino+Hek.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Redler

[FrankJaeger]

Why is this old topic being bumped back up? The DE team is aware of the problems.

All of this has been covered in The Index.

So, a quick reminder of what DESteve has to say about this topic:

X is too rare in the game! (Not enough reward alerts! Drop XYZ is just too hard to get!)

We are continually looking at the stats and tuning the drop/rarity tables to give players the best experience. As you can imagine for some things we are offering for sale, we need to be tread carefully between frustrating free players and ruining the value of purchases made by players that can support us.

(See FAQ https://forums.warfr...8-warframe-faq/)

As these threads grow, it's clear that we need to indeed tread carefully between free and paid players, and how our system works in respect to both.

We value what's been said within this thread, and while I can't make any promises, I can say that we are listening!

Discussion and feedback are valuable, and as long as all responses stay on topic, we're happy to keep reading.

Additional response on 2.4.13

Our system for now is random Orokin Reactor and Catalyst generations. Our random generation can be tweaked

A lot of the drops have to do with the Alert system as well since that is one way of getting an orokin item.

Suggesting a lock for this thread for now. The team has heard you - further whining without any meaningful contribution by way of ideas or suggestions is not helpful.

Hey guys - keep in mind this is the very first go at the alerts system. There will always be skinner boxes/RNG in games like this, but I agree its very frustrating.

Things we like about the Alerts:

-The small sense of 'life' it adds to the game. Missions are coming and going, even when you're offline. The sense of excitement when a new one pops up.

-One of the few 'one-time-only' items we track in the game, so we don't accidentally give 1 billion copies of item X that we are trying to sell for money to supporters of the game.

Things we do not like about Alerts and thus will be changing:

-How rare the cool stuff is.

-How there is a lack of anticipation (e.g. it would be nice to get some intel on upcoming alerts so you don't need to be ever-vigilant).

-How many are generated with lame rewards.

I get the frustration and I think we're defending the CONCEPT more than the shoddy, first-pass implementation. :)

Hang in there, we get the message, loud and clear!

Edited February 9, 2013 by FrankJaeger