Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 For what it is worth Ced, I'd go for your version any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyuzo Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 For what it is worth Ced, I'd go for your version any day. truthfully we all know you're against it ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) truthfully we all know you're against it ;) Actually, he has a simple way lined up to do all the things that I'd want to do in the first place. His version is easier and does the same things. I've been arguing in circles about how the Orokin system is bad because people keep posting as if they don't understand why people are hating on it, Ced just posted a fix. If people wanted to get behind his version then I'd be fine with it. Other people, at one point or another in the thread, have made suggestions just as good. Normally you'll see me barking at them but I just like to discuss this stuff. I'm playing devil's advocate quite often in this thread and others like it when I think someone is just trying to put together what they think fixes it. Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roniseyez Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'll quote myself here, because I think it's valid again. Agreeing with the cash shop needing to be cleaned up, the rest is pretty naive. F2P is a business model, not a christmas tree loaded with presents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) Agreeing with the cash shop needing to be cleaned up, the rest is pretty naive. F2P is a business model, not a christmas tree loaded with presents. Fixing the parts of a cash shop that are stupid is not the same as throwing your product at everyone for free. Don't rely on strawman logic to argue. You can't expect to win an argument by trying to pretend someone is arguing something they aren't. Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyuzo Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Actually, he has a simple way lined up to do all the things that I'd want to do in the first place. His version is easier and does the same things. I've been arguing in circles about how the Orokin system is bad because people keep posting as if they don't understand why people are hating on it, Ced just posted a fix. If people wanted to get behind his version then I'd be fine with it. Other people, at one point or another in the thread, have made suggestions just as good. Normally you'll see me barking at them but I just like to discuss this stuff. I'm playing devil's advocate quite often in this thread and others like it when I think someone is just trying to put together what they think fixes it. i made one its buried around here some where :O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) i made one its buried around here some where :O I probably also responded to it. Since it is no problem for me to just have the forums Alt-Tabbed I've been watching the threads that interest me pretty closely. Hell, I probably disagreed. After all, every good suggestion needs to get ironed out. If I thought something may be lacking I'd mention it. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather talk solutions then talk constantly about WHY people don't like it. But there are such a large number of people coming in here who don't seem to fully understand why people think it is bad. It keeps going back to it. Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread_Kun Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Orokin system needs to be less random. Making all Alerts have a ? reward would be a start. That ? reward could be some materials, a Blueprint, Catalyst, or whatever the hell the devs want. Give us a reason to do Alerts, as they are now, they serve no purpose unless they have a ? reward. Buying slots should not even be a thing. I dislike it greatly. An alternative if DE really ****ing wants to limit you in such a bad way would be the ability for your weapons to keep their levels if you buy them again. So for example if I could sell my lvl 30 Rhino and replace it with a freshly crafted Ember only to realise I hate Ember and that mohawks are stupid, I would be able to to craft my old Rhino again (3.5 days waiting and with fresh blueprints, same as the first time). Also I freaking love this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrisulfr Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'm personally fine with having 2 slots for Warframes on start, but it'd be nice if there would be a way of increasing it in game to maximum of 4. For example, after you succesfully finish 1000 missions, you would get the slot or at least blueprint for it. Or some other way that includes a definite goal. Like I mentioned in my previous post, randomness is generally a big no-no in determining fun factor. (with couple of exceptions) This way, buying slots still counts as convenience, and there is distinct work threshold present to people actually think about whether they want to get slots or not. Same goes for weapon slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Guy suggested something like attaching a Orokin BP to Mastery rank, that could be adapted to slots in a sense if DE felt player slots were an issue they wanted to answer. I'd say that if they don't like that they could attach a Warframe slot to every X amount of ranks. Not every time you rank up mind you. Little more then that. Reaching rank 3 would get you a Warframe slot. 6 would nab another. It'd be slot and pretty much all around less useful then just paying, but altogether I see slots as a less offensive Cash shop product then the Orokin items. Slots may limit the most I can own at once BUT the Orokin items limit the strength of the things I do own. I am against that sort of shenanigans. While they are at it they ought to remember to make sure the change would be retroactive. Guys like Ced deserve what they've earned ranking up. I believe he is Mastery Rank 6. Arguably he is the most dedicated player I've seen post their rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cegil Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Feedback and changes to a business model are ... hard to do with a playerbase, one has to admit. As those with the money, we are usually inclinded to ask for more. On the other hand, it is true that optional payments are nicer than more or less forced payments. The supercharging is, in my opinion, as much a chore/hindrance as limited slots. Now I just shrugged and paid those, because I can. I literally do not feel the sting of it, I enjoy the game, whatever, have my money. AAA titles give me 15 hours (DIshonored, 12) if I am lucky, for US$50. Digital Extremes gave me 150 hours and keeps giving me more. Wicked. Seems like me paying US$200 (ish) is still cheaper than those AAA titles for the playtime*. Nevertheless. I would prefer it a lot more if DE would do a couple of things. Equalize Platinum and real world money. US$10 = 100 Platinum. Odd conversions are carnie tricks for value obscursion and really grey area stuff. Shady, almost. It's certainly not consumer friendly to distort his perception of what he is paying when he spends the currency. Deal differently with slots. Unlocking slots with rank ups would be an idea, bypassable with cash. Also, stop it with odd payments for Revives and Weapon Slots. That is another carnie conning trick to sell more tickets. Don't do this because you see others do it. It's not smart business unless you like to label your customers suckers. Do away with the supercharge concept entirely or make the progress for F2Pers more realistic. Have them collect bits every mission, and after X missions (say, 50), they automatically get a Reactor/Catalyst. Cash bypasses for convenience. But having them hunt a carrot they have a hard time reaching is vicious. Get the cash shop cleaned up. Avatar packs need to be updated, Omni Ammo needs to go (no one buys it, metrics should back that up), helmets for Frost/Nyx/Excalibur are missing. Also, skins/texture packs. Broaden the colour palette - US$5 for a limited selection of pastel isn't cool. The thing is, a happy customer spends more. This entire thing is a risk, and you know it. But if you are afraid at the wrong spot to put trust in your customer base, you will more than likely disgruntle them. I don't want you to be afraid to make even the cash shop awesome. Currently, it feels like you do, and I have a hunch that not the developers or community reps are the reasons, but marketing/controlling. Obviously, you cannot comment on that. Obviously, marketing/controlling won't read this. But I can try and hope and wish and dream. * Borderlands 1/2 is kind of an exception there, that gave me 240 and 180 hours for US$ 60. Heh. I love this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTheExceed Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I completely agree with him, the game is in beta and expects you to pay to test. I spend alot on money on free games and this game has completely driven me away from spending money. And i am a huge spender in f2p games because i understand buisness. Im being employed next week and looked foward to having alot of extra cash but i wont spend a penny on this game, im going to put it into dead frontier and other crap. The game to me is half broken and they only care about money so i doubt this game is going anywhere. :( sucks because it was fn while i played it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Ced you still reading the thread? You ought to make a thread of your own with these suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ced23Ric Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'll look into it. Not before I make some investigations, because this is a hard debate about business plans, and none that can be approached without knowing what the breaks are. If development has no hand over the cash shop and marketing/controlling sits on it like a Cerberus, we can write until our fingers bleed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) I'll look into it. Not before I make some investigations, because this is a hard debate about business plans, and none that can be approached without knowing what the breaks are. If development has no hand over the cash shop and marketing/controlling sits on it like a Cerberus, we can write until our fingers bleed. Feedback is feedback. Your post is pretty free of a lot of the Hyperbole and negative charge this discussion tends to incite. Even I keep letting my argument slip into the dumb games, which is why it keeps going in circles. At the end of the day, whether we truly understand the finer points of the business or not, we are all just giving our honest opinions and hoping that DE will consider what we say as a community when they make the big decisions. Even at its best the discussion can only really carry itself based off the opinions and experiences of its participators. I think almost anyone on this forum could get behind what you said. Whether they've paid, haven't paid yet or don't intend to for quite some time. Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_ZAR_ Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) I think if the game is good people will pay because they want to support and will additionally tell every friend they have so community gets bigger. I have played beta for two days and decided the game is worth the money to support the team i guess others will do like this too so pls do not restrict the part all players need with money. On my oppinion its not the right way to do so. If everything would have been free i would have bought the founders pack anyway because i want to see how game develops and don't want developers run out of money. I think the more open the game gets people will pay for it because they want to support! Maybe let us pay for cosmetics ok but not for something all need to be good in the game like reaktors etc. make it available for ingame credits or something maybe at a really high price but let players access the items. (i think all items should be available with credits not only platinum, because if u play much u get them if the price is really high ok u have to play more but u can get them)! Edited February 2, 2013 by _ZAR_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gestalt Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The game to me is half broken and they only care about money so i doubt this game is going anywhere. :( sucks because it was fn while i played it. What?!?! Uggggghhhh my brain hurts. First the devs are deceptive. Now they're money-grabbin' hoes. Beccs should just close this thread and repost Ced's post into a new thread. Seems like the majority can get behind that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 What?!?! Uggggghhhh my brain hurts. First the devs are deceptive. Now they're money-grabbin' hoes. Beccs should just close this thread and repost Ced's post into a new thread. Seems like the majority can get behind that. Nah. The majority of this thread is pretty good. No real reason to lock it. It'll die on its own eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetergentPod Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 The only problem I currently see is the Slot and Reactor/Catalyst. Slot should be given per rank. Each rank gives you 1 warframe slot and 2 weapon slot. That way People actually have a reason to rank up. Currently the only reason you need to achieve a rank 4 is for the HEK. As for the Reactor and Catalyst, make every boss drop it but make the chances low. The weaker the boss the lower the chance. This prevent people farming the first boss for it. For people saying that games like League of Legends is an ideal F2P and makes people not want to pay simply because they don't have to. Well you're wrong, very very wrong. I'm those kind of people that want everything to be accessable to all players free or payed, but payed have it easy. When I first started League 2 years ago I said the exact same things as many people "I'm not going to spent a single penny on this game. Why should I pay for skins? Champions can be brought with IP and IP can be obtain through playing." Now I spent a about 200 dollars on it for champions during 50% and skins. So yeah just because you don't need to spent money to obtain the things you need doesn't mean people won't eventually spent money. If you're able to catch their attention and keep them playing then eventually they will spent money if they have money to spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrisulfr Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Agreed with ThePieBoy. Thats the true meaning of convenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambarpowder Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 This things mentioned on this thread is pretty much everything the game needs before it can keep moving forward. Thank the gods there's people who can say this stuff better than I do. I agree totally, and I hope the message gets across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrisulfr Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Would be nice to get dev response after 12 pages on this topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judgebanks Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 The only problem I currently see is the Slot and Reactor/Catalyst. Slot should be given per rank. Each rank gives you 1 warframe slot and 2 weapon slot. That way People actually have a reason to rank up. Currently the only reason you need to achieve a rank 4 is for the HEK. As for the Reactor and Catalyst, make every boss drop it but make the chances low. The weaker the boss the lower the chance. This prevent people farming the first boss for it. For people saying that games like League of Legends is an ideal F2P and makes people not want to pay simply because they don't have to. Well you're wrong, very very wrong. I'm those kind of people that want everything to be accessable to all players free or payed, but payed have it easy. When I first started League 2 years ago I said the exact same things as many people "I'm not going to spent a single penny on this game. Why should I pay for skins? Champions can be brought with IP and IP can be obtain through playing." Now I spent a about 200 dollars on it for champions during 50% and skins. So yeah just because you don't need to spent money to obtain the things you need doesn't mean people won't eventually spent money. If you're able to catch their attention and keep them playing then eventually they will spent money if they have money to spent. It would need to be rewarded upon the completion of a boss map, rather than the boss himself, currently bosses are getting farmed in such a way that no one ever completes the mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Would be nice to get dev response after 12 pages on this topic... They said they were working on it in another thread about this. Lets not turn this into something like the PvP thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f3llyn Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) The only problem I currently see is the Slot and Reactor/Catalyst. Slot should be given per rank. Each rank gives you 1 warframe slot and 2 weapon slot. That way People actually have a reason to rank up. Currently the only reason you need to achieve a rank 4 is for the HEK. As for the Reactor and Catalyst, make every boss drop it but make the chances low. The weaker the boss the lower the chance. This prevent people farming the first boss for it. For people saying that games like League of Legends is an ideal F2P and makes people not want to pay simply because they don't have to. Well you're wrong, very very wrong. I'm those kind of people that want everything to be accessable to all players free or payed, but payed have it easy. When I first started League 2 years ago I said the exact same things as many people "I'm not going to spent a single penny on this game. Why should I pay for skins? Champions can be brought with IP and IP can be obtain through playing." Now I spent a about 200 dollars on it for champions during 50% and skins. So yeah just because you don't need to spent money to obtain the things you need doesn't mean people won't eventually spent money. If you're able to catch their attention and keep them playing then eventually they will spent money if they have money to spent. That's exactly the point. The first part of that paragraph directly contradicts the second part of it and I'm not sure how you fail to realize that. In LoL you're paying for convience and cosmetics and that's all. People don't feel like they have to spend money to be able to play the game. But once they do start playing it and like it then they think hey..this champion I like has a new skin that I also like, may as well support the devs and throw $10 at them for the skin. For example, if you had to pay money to unlock half the mastery trees in LoL, that would basically be the equivalent of the orokin items. Except even then that's a stretch because the mastery points in LoL don't have nearly as big of a role in the game as orokin items do In Warframe. Not nearly as many people would be playing that game today if they had to pay to unlock things like that. That's exactly the kind of business model people are saying works which is in direct opposition to how it is in Warframe currently. Edited February 3, 2013 by f3llyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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