Is Paris Prime still viable weapon in current meta?

[EmbedFire]

I am back in game after a half of year or more. I had like 3 breaks from this game, but I am always back and it's usually good for me as a player, because there is always new content.

So about the content... I remember that last time I was playing, I wanted to max my Paris Prime. Is it still worth the time?

Edited March 26, 2017 by EmbedFire

[Xzorn]

26 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

x4 shots is gonna do nothing? idk with my rakta i kill it faster than waiting for an rng slash proc to proc AND to tick in endurance runs i take my rakta with.

also please do tell me why bows and snipers are same weapon type but snipers arent used while two bows got faint disposition? theyre not the same class for a reason. bows have more effective dps, making them actually good. damage in a single shot is irrelevant in comparisons when the dps is lower and ammo economy not being an issue.

if you legit think rakta cernos is helpless against armor then i dont see a point in discussing this any further.

 

This is a joke right? Like you're just playing with the whole eternal Rakta Vs Dread argument concept. Right?

I already pointed out that build has an expected Slash trigger of 0.8 = 80%. Meaning I can expect an Avg 80% Bleed proc rate per shot. That's why the video only shows one proc and without red-crits. Because 2 procs or red-crits just means the average is actually better than what I'm showing.

I also shot once. Rakta couldn't do the same in 10 shots. So that whole shooting faster and waiting for the bleed argument is irrelevant.

Bows / Snipers are both precision, Damage per shot weapons. As I said the only difference is handling and preference.

You quoting things like sustained DPS for a bow means I'm likely wasting my time here but feel free to prove me wrong instead of making claims.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

This is a joke right? Like you're just playing with the whole eternal Rakta Vs Dread argument concept. Right?

I already pointed out that build has an expected Slash trigger of 0.8 = 80%. Meaning I can expect an Avg 80% Bleed proc rate per shot. That's why the video only shows one proc and without red-crits. Because 2 procs or red-crits just means the average is actually better than what I'm showing.

I also shot once. Rakta couldn't do the same in 10 shots. So that whole shooting faster and waiting for the bleed argument is irrelevant.

Bows / Snipers are both precision, Damage per shot weapons. As I said the only difference is handling and preference.

You quoting things like sustained DPS for a bow means I'm likely wasting my time here but feel free to prove me wrong instead of making claims.

%80 rng is still rng. and an average build will have elementals in it to decrease that chance. by quite a bit.

yeah its like simulacrum tests are really logical way to show a weapons actual gameplay value /s. it doesnt include the value of cp(you WILL have 4x cp if you want to go levels that this whole talk actually matters), syndicate procs, other enemies presence in the field, your squadmates, trying to find cover etc. so yeah. rakta doesnt need to do that.

this is a horde shooter game. your single target damage is close to irrelevant. if you think damage in a single shot matters more if its a "precision weapon" than then please do tell me why does snipers are simply horrible? i'll tell you why again as ive said a million times and you refusing to accept=theyre single target damage weapons. why being a bow directly forces a weapons quality on its shot by shot damage? thats utterly ridicilous. i might as well just use a tigris prime then. range isnt that much of an issue if you know how to take proper cover and keep moving. as ive said before, this is a horde shooter where even trash mobs can be a serious threat. your shot by shot damage will only get you killed if you cant spread your dps fast enough. and you need to have actual sustained dps for that.

you keep saying that bows and snipers are the same but you refuse to explain why snipers are never in the meta while bows are. if both of those classes are the same just because of that, you must think that every weapon thats not aoe and not fully auto is same as a sniper as well(which is really not the case). there are major differences between bows and snipers since you clearly dont know those.

1-punch through. this adds a really good amount of dps to the bows. snipers dont have it internally, they need to use a mod space for it. and to make it even worse snipers dont have as much free space in modding.

2-accuracy. snipers are only accurate when scoped in. their hipfire doesnt have any kind of accuracy to speak of. bows have near pinpoint accuracy, and they dont put on horse blinders when they aim, it makes it far more possible to switch targets to spread their damage around.

3-no recoil to speak of, makes it easier to switch damage.

the most important of these differences it the second one. and guess what, it makes it much easier to increase sustained dps. you see, unlike you claim sustained dps difference makes bows good and makes snipers suck. if you still claim that theres no difference except "handling" without showing any reasons for it, please save me and yourself some time and dont reply at all. and no, "preference" cant make that much of a huge difference. there has to be more people finding snipers cool since in most shooters people love playing as them. i refuse to believe warframe is the only exception of people not liking sniper rifles.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Zeclem

[Xzorn]

@Zeclem

Arguing against 80% RNG and one of your main arguments for Rakta is a proc you can't control by any means that lasts for 6 seconds......

Should I even ask what you mean by an "average build" and "Proper Cover"?   What game are we talking about.

You try to discredit a simple test instead of trying to prove any of the false information you type because you can't and I know you can't.  Theory crafting, damage calcs and testing against high level enemies is what I do in this game. I know Rakta can't down a lvl 145 armored Napalm in less time. Doesn't matter how fast you shoot.

Another false bit of information you claim is that CPx4 is needed to get anywhere meaningful.. Well I guess maybe for some but I've gone lvl 1,750 without a single CP because I understand what works and what doesn't. I can link you videos of other players I know who've gone further without CP. The only real difference between CPx4 and non-CP is what weapons you can use and team synergy you can take advantage of. If you think you need CP to get anywhere meaningful then you're prolly using the wrong weapons. ie Rakta Cernos.

I do lvl 300+ Solo all the time. I know what works and what doesn't work against armored enemies at those levels and Rakta doesn't. That's one of the allures of Dread and Mutalist Cernos and one of the better things about the damage system of this game that players still somehow don't understand. Not every weapon is perfect for every situation and that's why neither Dread nor Rakta are better than the other.

If you want to argue about it more feel free to prove something. I don't feel like reading another rant about Snipers Vs Bows. It's irreverent,

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

@Zeclem

Arguing against 80% RNG and one of your main arguments for Rakta is a proc you can't control by any means that lasts for 6 seconds......

Should I even ask what you mean by an "average build" and "Proper Cover"?   What game are we talking about.

You try to discredit a simple test instead of trying to prove any of the false information you type because you can't and I know you can't.  Theory crafting, damage calcs and testing against high level enemies is what I do in this game. I know Rakta can't down a lvl 145 armored Napalm in less time. Doesn't matter how fast you shoot.

Another false bit of information you claim is that CPx4 is needed to get anywhere meaningful.. Well I guess maybe for some but I've gone lvl 1,750 without a single CP because I understand what works and what doesn't. I can link you videos of other players I know who've gone further without CP. The only real difference between CPx4 and non-CP is what weapons you can use and team synergy you can take advantage of. If you think you need CP to get anywhere meaningful then you're prolly using the wrong weapons. ie Rakta Cernos.

I do lvl 300+ Solo all the time. I know what works and what doesn't work against armored enemies at those levels and Rakta doesn't. That's one of the allures of Dread and Mutalist Cernos and one of the better things about the damage system of this game that players still somehow don't understand. Not every weapon is perfect for every situation and that's why neither Dread nor Rakta are better than the other.

If you want to argue about it more feel free to prove something. I don't feel like reading another rant about Snipers Vs Bows. It's irreverent,

holy hell dude. did you literally skip every part of my comment that you couldnt counter?

1-read it again. with a build that has elementals you wont have that %80 ratio of bleed procs. you simply wont. and at that point its not %80, its much lower.

2-how am i saying bleed procs are useless? how am i discrediting anything? where did i say bleed procs are weak to armor? you arent theorycrafting, playtesting or w/e, because only test you have shown was a dread taking down a high level armored target. i literally said rakta cernos doesnt have to do that in those circumstances.

3-i did not said needed. i said you WILL get it because that simply makes things a LOT easier. are you denying that? and to kill enemies at that level you either need that or covert lethality. good job on cheddaring the game. if you claim otherwise, bring proof. actual proof, not "i know the game so this is correct" proof.

4-i highly doubt you know what works and what doesnt since you claimed snipers to be same weapons as bows and that bows quality is measured in its shot by shot dps. you still havent explained why or how.

5-in higher levels like that, why would you bother picking a weapon thats not a dagger at all? its pointless to not use the best if you want to go high. those weapons do work, yes, but why bother when a dagger works better when combined with a frame that can make use of covert lethality?

6-you mentioned the "average build" so you tell me. and proper cover is what it says. proper cover. like do you actually stand there and eat all the enemies throw at you?

[Cabesi]

@EmbedFire It is hard to say what you might consider viable. It can do Sortie 3/Kuva Flood missions reasonably quickly, but then again so can most of the weapons when maxed. It is most likely the 3rd-4th best bow and the 5-7th best bow type weapon, which is... pretty garbage, honestly, since bows as a class suck. Not sure I would even put it in the top 50% of primaries. If you just like how it looks, or something like that, then yeah, it will kill enemies and there is nothing terribly wrong with it (apart from it being a bow, that is). Otherwise I wouldn't bother - Dread is basically the same bow, but slightly better and with slash procs.

@Xzorn It is true that Dread has its niche dealing with high lvl armored enemies, but that's all it is, a niche. Showing that you can one-shot lvl145 Napalm (with Riven, Ash and no fire rate mod) is as meaningless as being able to balance a ping-pong ball on top of your dong - might look impressive, but it's not gonna be much of a help, is it? The fact is that pretty much 100% of the content you need to complete in the game is lvls 1-100 (with the occasional joke alert going over). And because of how the power of status ramps up when you go up in lvls, (as in, the ability to kill heavy lvl145 enemy the fastest doesn't translate into being able to kill lvl100 medium enemy the fastest) - even at Sortie 3/Kuva Flood lvls Rakta not only outperforms Dread in general, but it also still has faster TTKs on heavy units at those lvls (not that those really matter anyway). Add in the syndicate proc (best of the bunch), which can kill starchart enemies in large AoE on its own and effectively double your dps for 6s, and I think it's pretty safe to say that Rakta is overall the better bow.

Your math is also wrong. Rakta does 53% more dmg per shot when using similar build (Bladed on Rakta, Vile on Dread) and does 9% less with the exact same build, not 30%. That is with the best possible setup for lvls 1-100 (Serration+Split+Point+Vital+P Cryo+90+P Bane+Bladed). However, Dread (or any bow apart from Rakta) is basically un-usable without a fire rate mod and the dps goes to absolute S#&$ as well, so it's not really worth discussing anyway. Additionally, I find your claims that for bows dps doesn't matter and that only the damage per shot counts pretty curious, as exactly the opposite is true (for any weapon really). Dps is what is ultimately stopping the influx of enemies (and consequently the influx of their dps) that would cause you, your team-mates or the objective to die: if you don't have enough, you will fail. Damage per shot, on the other hand, is only an arbitrary distinction with no practical significance, except for some special cases like damage gated bosses where there is a benefit to doing as much damage per shot as possible since they will go into invulnerable state immediately after.

 

[Wolfsuka]

2 hours ago, Cabesi said:

@EmbedFire It is hard to say what you might consider viable. It can do Sortie 3/Kuva Flood missions reasonably quickly, but then again so can most of the weapons when maxed. It is most likely the 3rd-4th best bow and the 5-7th best bow type weapon, which is... pretty garbage, honestly, since bows as a class suck. Not sure I would even put it in the top 50% of primaries. If you just like how it looks, or something like that, then yeah, it will kill enemies and there is nothing terribly wrong with it (apart from it being a bow, that is). Otherwise I wouldn't bother - Dread is basically the same bow, but slightly better and with slash procs.

@Xzorn It is true that Dread has its niche dealing with high lvl armored enemies, but that's all it is, a niche. Showing that you can one-shot lvl145 Napalm (with Riven, Ash and no fire rate mod) is as meaningless as being able to balance a ping-pong ball on top of your dong - might look impressive, but it's not gonna be much of a help, is it? The fact is that pretty much 100% of the content you need to complete in the game is lvls 1-100 (with the occasional joke alert going over). And because of how the power of status ramps up when you go up in lvls, (as in, the ability to kill heavy lvl145 enemy the fastest doesn't translate into being able to kill lvl100 medium enemy the fastest) - even at Sortie 3/Kuva Flood lvls Rakta not only outperforms Dread in general, but it also still has faster TTKs on heavy units at those lvls (not that those really matter anyway). Add in the syndicate proc (best of the bunch), which can kill starchart enemies in large AoE on its own and effectively double your dps for 6s, and I think it's pretty safe to say that Rakta is overall the better bow.

Your math is also wrong. Rakta does 53% more dmg per shot when using similar build (Bladed on Rakta, Vile on Dread) and does 9% less with the exact same build, not 30%. That is with the best possible setup for lvls 1-100 (Serration+Split+Point+Vital+P Cryo+90+P Bane+Bladed). However, Dread (or any bow apart from Rakta) is basically un-usable without a fire rate mod and the dps goes to absolute S#&$ as well, so it's not really worth discussing anyway. Additionally, I find your claims that for bows dps doesn't matter and that only the damage per shot counts pretty curious, as exactly the opposite is true (for any weapon really). Dps is what is ultimately stopping the influx of enemies (and consequently the influx of their dps) that would cause you, your team-mates or the objective to die: if you don't have enough, you will fail. Damage per shot, on the other hand, is only an arbitrary distinction with no practical significance, except for some special cases like damage gated bosses where there is a benefit to doing as much damage per shot as possible since they will go into invulnerable state immediately after.

 

Lol this is discussion is really interesting but IMA end it here. Bows are a niche weapon. They are meant for personal preference and fun. Dread does F*** ton of damage, and Ceranos is good damage and a great passive. Can we not agree on that and move on? And how about that new frame huh?

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, Wolfsuka said:

Dread does F*** ton of damage, and Ceranos is good damage and a great passive. Can we not agree on that and move on?

Thank you.  I pretty much said this earlier, but you know how things can get on forums.  :D

[Desperado14]

So, the great thing about bows is that generally speaking, they aren't meta. I think the only one that might be meta is combining the mutalist cernos with saryn. Like a lot of people though, I find bows very fun.  Paris prime...probably the least fun to me, but nonetheless still a good single shot weapon.  Yes dread has slash, ratka cernes doesn't need a fire rate mod, the paris has puncture for high armor, whatever.  This game doesn't need these arguments.  These weapons are balanced and that's what matters.  

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, Cabesi said:

 

@Xzorn It is true that Dread has its niche dealing with high lvl armored enemies, but that's all it is, a niche. Showing that you can one-shot lvl145 Napalm (with Riven, Ash and no fire rate mod) is as meaningless as being able to balance a ping-pong ball on top of your dong - might look impressive, but it's not gonna be much of a help, is it? The fact is that pretty much 100% of the content you need to complete in the game is lvls 1-100 (with the occasional joke alert going over). And because of how the power of status ramps up when you go up in lvls, (as in, the ability to kill heavy lvl145 enemy the fastest doesn't translate into being able to kill lvl100 medium enemy the fastest) - even at Sortie 3/Kuva Flood lvls Rakta not only outperforms Dread in general, but it also still has faster TTKs on heavy units at those lvls (not that those really matter anyway). Add in the syndicate proc (best of the bunch), which can kill starchart enemies in large AoE on its own and effectively double your dps for 6s, and I think it's pretty safe to say that Rakta is overall the better bow.

Your math is also wrong. Rakta does 53% more dmg per shot when using similar build (Bladed on Rakta, Vile on Dread) and does 9% less with the exact same build, not 30%. That is with the best possible setup for lvls 1-100 (Serration+Split+Point+Vital+P Cryo+90+P Bane+Bladed). However, Dread (or any bow apart from Rakta) is basically un-usable without a fire rate mod and the dps goes to absolute S#&$ as well, so it's not really worth discussing anyway. Additionally, I find your claims that for bows dps doesn't matter and that only the damage per shot counts pretty curious, as exactly the opposite is true (for any weapon really). Dps is what is ultimately stopping the influx of enemies (and consequently the influx of their dps) that would cause you, your team-mates or the objective to die: if you don't have enough, you will fail. Damage per shot, on the other hand, is only an arbitrary distinction with no practical significance, except for some special cases like damage gated bosses where there is a benefit to doing as much damage per shot as possible since they will go into invulnerable state immediately after.

 

The point of a weapon comparison is to compare it's performance against all level ranges and all faction / health types. It's damage capacity along side it's versatility with others in it's class.  I already mentioned in my very first post that if you're not going past lvl 80+ then the difference in bows hardly matters. I can say Ignis is the best weapon in the game cuz I don't go past lvl 40 but that's a flimsy argument. 

Armor is apparent on Grineer, Void, Fissures and Bursa. Nearly half the game. That's hardly a niche. From one of my posts "Dread has more versatility" than Rakta because of this. Even a lvl 145 Lancer has 91.12% damage reduction from armor, as enemies scale Heavy units or otherwise, Cernos is going to have serious problems dealing with armor.

That video used Ash to emulate a Riven mod. I did not use a Riven at the time. I was theory crafting what Riven rolls I would want on my Dread. I then compared on paper and tested those results. The biggest difference without Ash's passive but instead with a Riven is the proc rate since a Riven can also improve it's Bleed Damage. The video was mostly made to show that a Pure physical build is a viable option for Dread since the addition of Riven mods. I showed it because the other player did not seem to understand what a Slash based weapon can accomplish.

The point of versatility in using a fire rate mod or not is primarily a group role aspect, not Solo. Kill rate is what matters, not DPS and DPS does not always directly translate to kill rate on a weapon like a bow. A non-fire rate Dread in a group plays as the "Designated Heavies Killer" They do not shoot fodder enemies, they let the team deal with lesser enemies and focus on high eHP targets. They don't really need the fire rate as a result. What they need is a target to go down in ideally one shot then move to the next. This method is designed around Group Kill Rate. Now yours as the player.

My math was not wrong. It was using an optimal condition comparisons. I was comparing damage modifiers against health types for the absolute best damage output each weapon can reach. Rakta is at a disadvantage on this because the health types Impact gains are against Shields in which the optimal damage type against Corpus for a Crit weapon is Pure Toxic so the Impact damage bonus does not come into play. At  the same time the negative modifiers that Slash damage suffers against Armor can countered by Bleed damage.

As for the Math to support that claim....

Spoiler

Dread 200 Damage 50% x2 Crit, 20% Status
200 * ( 1 + 1.65) = 530
P.Bane
530 * 1.55 = 821.5
P. Cryo + Infected Clip
821.5 * ( 0.9 + 1.65) = 2,094.825
Multishot
(821.5 + 2,094.825) * 1.9 = (1,560.85 + 3,980.1675)
Crit
0.5 * ( 1 + 1.5) = 1.25 = 125%
2.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 1.2) = 6.8
Avg Damage per Shot
(1,560.85 + 3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) = 45,713.39
Avg Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental
(1,560.85 + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) = 70,340.68
Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental
4(1,560.85 + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) = 281,362.72

Slash Weight 1404.765 / 2,555.85 = 0.55 = 55%
Expected Status Trigger 0.2 * 1.9 = 0.38
Expected Slash Trigger 0.38 * 0.55 = 0.209
Avg Bleed Tick (1,560.85 * 0.9) * 0.35 = 491.67
Avg Bleed Proc 491.67 * 7 = 3,441.67
Avg Head-Shot Bleed Proc = 13,766.697

Avg Head-Shot Bleed Damage per Shot
13,766.697 * 0.209 = 2,877.24

Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental w/ +25% Slash + Bleed
4(1.25(1,560.85) + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) + 2,877.24 =
4(1,951.0625 + 6,965.293) * 8.25 + 2,877.24 = 297,116.97

Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental w/ +25% Slash + Bleed
4(1.5(1,560.85) + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) + 2,877.24 =
4(2,341.275 + 6,965.293) * 8.25 + 2,877.24 = 309,993.984

Rakta Cernos 250 Damage 35% x2 Crit 15% Status
250 * (1+ 1.65) = 662.5
P.Bane
662.5 * 1.55 = 1,026.875
P. Cryo + Infested Clip
1,026.875 * ( 0.9 + 1.65) = 2,618.53
Multishot
(1,026.875 + 2,618.53) * 1.9 = (1,951.06 + 4,975.21)
Crit
0.35 * ( 1 + 1.5 ) = 0.875 = 87.5%
2.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 1.2) = 6.8
Avg Damage per Shot
(1,951.06 + 4,975.21) * (1 + ( 1- 6.8) * 0.875) = 42,077.09
Avg Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental
(1,951.06 + 1.75(4,975.21) * (1 + ( 1- 6.8) * 0.875) = 64,745.4
Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot
0.875 * 4 = 3.5, (1 - 0.875) * 2 = 0.25
3.5 + 0.25 = 3.75
3.75(1,951.06 + 1.75(4,975.21) * (1 + ( 1- 6.8) * 0.875) = 242,795.22

-------------------------------------------

Base Damage Comparison
(45,713.39 - 42,077.09) / 42,077.09 = 0.086 = 8.6% More
Head-Shot Comparison
(281,362.72 - 242.795.22) / 242.795.22 = 0.1707 = 17.07% More
Head-Shot +25% Slash + Bleed Comparison
(297,116.97 - 242,795.22) / 242,795.22 = 0.23 = 23% More
Head-Shot +50% Slash + Bleed Comparison
(309,993.984 - 242,795.22) / 242,795.22 = 0.277 = 28% More

 

I already said that Rakta will in general have a higher kill rate than Dread because of it's draw speed and flight speed. I'm not going to argue about the weight of DPS as a stat on bows but I didn't say it was meaningless. I said you can't realistically consider the number. You can only consider that fire rate will directly impact your kill rate.

This dead horse argument of Rakta Vs Dread has been pounded into dust. Neither bow is better than the other.

[Cabesi]

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

The point of a weapon comparison is to compare it's performance against all level ranges and all faction / health types. It's damage capacity along side it's versatility with others in it's class.  I already mentioned in my very first post that if you're not going past lvl 80+ then the difference in bows hardly matters. I can say Ignis is the best weapon in the game cuz I don't go past lvl 40 but that's a flimsy argument. 

Armor is apparent on Grineer, Void, Fissures and Bursa. Nearly half the game. That's hardly a niche. From one of my posts "Dread has more versatility" than Rakta because of this. Even a lvl 145 Lancer has 91.12% damage reduction from armor, as enemies scale Heavy units or otherwise, Cernos is going to have serious problems dealing with armor.

That video used Ash to emulate a Riven mod. I did not use a Riven at the time. I was theory crafting what Riven rolls I would want on my Dread. I then compared on paper and tested those results. The biggest difference without Ash's passive but instead with a Riven is the proc rate since a Riven can also improve it's Bleed Damage. The video was mostly made to show that a Pure physical build is a viable option for Dread since the addition of Riven mods. I showed it because the other player did not seem to understand what a Slash based weapon can accomplish.

The point of versatility in using a fire rate mod or not is primarily a group role aspect, not Solo. Kill rate is what matters, not DPS and DPS does not always directly translate to kill rate on a weapon like a bow. A non-fire rate Dread in a group plays as the "Designated Heavies Killer" They do not shoot fodder enemies, they let the team deal with lesser enemies and focus on high eHP targets. They don't really need the fire rate as a result. What they need is a target to go down in ideally one shot then move to the next. This method is designed around Group Kill Rate. Now yours as the player.

My math was not wrong. It was using an optimal condition comparisons. I was comparing damage modifiers against health types for the absolute best damage output each weapon can reach. Rakta is at a disadvantage on this because the health types Impact gains are against Shields in which the optimal damage type against Corpus for a Crit weapon is Pure Toxic so the Impact damage bonus does not come into play. At  the same time the negative modifiers that Slash damage suffers against Armor can countered by Bleed damage.

As for the Math to support that claim....

  Hide contents

Dread 200 Damage 50% x2 Crit, 20% Status
200 * ( 1 + 1.65) = 530
P.Bane
530 * 1.55 = 821.5
P. Cryo + Infected Clip
821.5 * ( 0.9 + 1.65) = 2,094.825
Multishot
(821.5 + 2,094.825) * 1.9 = (1,560.85 + 3,980.1675)
Crit
0.5 * ( 1 + 1.5) = 1.25 = 125%
2.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 1.2) = 6.8
Avg Damage per Shot
(1,560.85 + 3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) = 45,713.39
Avg Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental
(1,560.85 + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) = 70,340.68
Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental
4(1,560.85 + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) = 281,362.72

Slash Weight 1404.765 / 2,555.85 = 0.55 = 55%
Expected Status Trigger 0.2 * 1.9 = 0.38
Expected Slash Trigger 0.38 * 0.55 = 0.209
Avg Bleed Tick (1,560.85 * 0.9) * 0.35 = 491.67
Avg Bleed Proc 491.67 * 7 = 3,441.67
Avg Head-Shot Bleed Proc = 13,766.697

Avg Head-Shot Bleed Damage per Shot
13,766.697 * 0.209 = 2,877.24

Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental w/ +25% Slash + Bleed
4(1.25(1,560.85) + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) + 2,877.24 =
4(1,951.0625 + 6,965.293) * 8.25 + 2,877.24 = 297,116.97

Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental w/ +25% Slash + Bleed
4(1.5(1,560.85) + 1.75(3,980.1675) * (1+ (1- 6.8) * 1.25) + 2,877.24 =
4(2,341.275 + 6,965.293) * 8.25 + 2,877.24 = 309,993.984

Rakta Cernos 250 Damage 35% x2 Crit 15% Status
250 * (1+ 1.65) = 662.5
P.Bane
662.5 * 1.55 = 1,026.875
P. Cryo + Infested Clip
1,026.875 * ( 0.9 + 1.65) = 2,618.53
Multishot
(1,026.875 + 2,618.53) * 1.9 = (1,951.06 + 4,975.21)
Crit
0.35 * ( 1 + 1.5 ) = 0.875 = 87.5%
2.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 1.2) = 6.8
Avg Damage per Shot
(1,951.06 + 4,975.21) * (1 + ( 1- 6.8) * 0.875) = 42,077.09
Avg Damage per Shot w/ +75% Elemental
(1,951.06 + 1.75(4,975.21) * (1 + ( 1- 6.8) * 0.875) = 64,745.4
Avg Head-Shot Damage per Shot
0.875 * 4 = 3.5, (1 - 0.875) * 2 = 0.25
3.5 + 0.25 = 3.75
3.75(1,951.06 + 1.75(4,975.21) * (1 + ( 1- 6.8) * 0.875) = 242,795.22

-------------------------------------------

Base Damage Comparison
(45,713.39 - 42,077.09) / 42,077.09 = 0.086 = 8.6% More
Head-Shot Comparison
(281,362.72 - 242.795.22) / 242.795.22 = 0.1707 = 17.07% More
Head-Shot +25% Slash + Bleed Comparison
(297,116.97 - 242,795.22) / 242,795.22 = 0.23 = 23% More
Head-Shot +50% Slash + Bleed Comparison
(309,993.984 - 242,795.22) / 242,795.22 = 0.277 = 28% More

 

I already said that Rakta will in general have a higher kill rate than Dread because of it's draw speed and flight speed. I'm not going to argue about the weight of DPS as a stat on bows but I didn't say it was meaningless. I said you can't realistically consider the number. You can only consider that fire rate will directly impact your kill rate.

This dead horse argument of Rakta Vs Dread has been pounded into dust. Neither bow is better than the other.

Or, more accurately, it is an argument that some people would like to be dead.

If for you "the point of a weapon comparison is to compare it's performance against all level ranges and all faction / health types" means that being better against content players encounter 1% of the time, not even out of necessity but purely of their own accord, is just as important as being better against 99% of the (actually important) content, then you can just retire the word better/best from your dictionary. Like, surely, daggers are just as good as all the best melee weapons since they can easily kill lvl10000 enemies - let's tell all the players asking for advice on melee to consider getting daggers. And even that is not a fair comparison, really, since for those lvls daggers would at least be the best overall option. In your scenario, you are looking at someone who goes into lvl100+ mission alone, with the intention of killing with just his bow. When is that situation ever gonna occur? Or is it because you consider Rakta to be only 5% better for 1-100 and Dread 200% better 100+? Even assuming that would be a fair way to judge, that is not the reality either. With optimal builds for those lvls, Rakta does both higher dmg per shot (whatever that's worth), fires faster and has synd proc. Even accounting for some slash procs, it would be more fair to say that Rakta is 50-100% better than Dread for 1-100. It's not some close race that is decided on minor details and personal preference. The difference is huge.

Furthermore, what is this "Designated Heavies Killer" BS? That is such a fantasy. Have you ever played in a group trying to do that? Have you ever played with Dread with no fire mods? In your imagination, I am sure it must be all going swell, but that's not how it works at all. You don't just consider the highest damage per shot under ideal conditions and call it a day. You need to consider that you will miss, you will not always hit headshots, you can be stopped from charging your weapon, you can't always afford to wait 6s until the bleed procs kill the target. Not to mention that in a group, roles don't work like that in the first place. You don't have a guy just trying to kill heavies; for any high lvl mission, like 100 wave Belenus, 10k Hieracon, or whatever, the Warframe composition is what matters and that is what designates your role. It is true that it is sometimes advantageous to bring accurate single target weapons (mostly for under lvl500 missions, or when you are using Banshee), but for that purpose people actually bring Snipers, which deal way higher dmg than Dread, Rakta or any bow, or most any weapons for that matter. Either way, you don't have "designated heavies killer" and if you tried to do that at any lvls where kill rate actually matters, you will be a burden on your team.

Lastly, you still haven't explained what makes you consider damage per shot so thoroughly, but makes you say that you can't consider dps realistically. Like, sure, having 80% more dps like Rakta does, doesn't mean you will kill 80% faster, especially when you can one-shot everything (only 0.94 vs 1.17 shots per second difference between Dread and Rakta with Vile), but even for Sorties, you need to consider the fact that it takes 3 body shots to kill your average lvl100 Elite Lancer, but it takes only 2 body shots with Rakta. So if you don't hit HS, which in reality you mostly don't, it takes 2.48s to kill the Lancer with Dread and only 1.1s with Rakta (initial draw of 0.36/0.25s + draw+reload times for additional shots). In practice the difference isn't quite this big because of some HS and some slash procs, but still, dps matters massively. For high lvls, with your no fire rate build, it's the same story, the damage per shot is a bit higher, but you can almost shoot twice with Rakta for every time Dread shoots. The difference in kill rate would be huge. Even if you could one-shot heavies, you still need to wait 1s bloody second before you do. And once you can't, then what? I actually doubt you ever considered using such a build in a mission yourself. Not using fire rate mod just to get higher dmg per hit simply makes zero sense in whatever scenario.

I appreciate you shared the context for your 30% claim (which honestly is quite ingenious without it), although your math actually still is a bit wrong. Average base dmg per shot (i.e. 45,713 vs 42,077) is correct, but your HS dmg isn't. To get average HS dmg you can't simply make average HS crit multiplier (like the 3.5+0.25 you are doing here). You need to calculate the damage for crit HS and non-crit HS separately, because the crit dmg will have "more weight" than the non-crit dmg (wiki has a helpful section on this). Also your faction dmg is slightly incorrect, since you are not including the faction modifiers for the physical damage types. The correct values would be 73077/62227 for Faction dmg (Cloned Flesh) and 292308/246346 for average Faction dmg HS. As I mentioned, though, this is utterly irrelevant.

[Zeclem]

@Cabesi he prolly didnt actually try as you think. since he said he doesnt use those weapons much. and im waiting for him to explain that thing either. and how snipers and bows are same weapon category as well.

also, theres the reality of cp. yes, bleed procs do good against armor, but you dont have to deal with armor in this game at all at any level. if you dont go with 4xcp on your own choice, fine. but it doesnt make dread a better nor equal bow to rakta. its simply you putting a limit on one weapons potential and comparing them after it. i might as well use dread without any mods and say it sucks going by that approach. so yeah, what dread does is a niche that isnt something you have to deal with.