Still No Change, Eh? (Mission Failure = Lose All Work)

[RyuKaiser]

Heard the new update dropped, saw the map UI, giggled with glee... then saw that the same ol' same ol' was in effect. You can strain your face off an entire mission, but if you fail it, you lose everything you gained.

 

Y'know, I played during the closed beta. I played during the open beta, before this system dropped. So I've got to ask: Why screw up such an amazing game with something this stupid? Is it for the hardcore people who spend all night stroking their e-peen about how hardcore they are? Is it to frustrate and aggitate the uninstall button of the users? Maybe you just have a thing against monitors, because my fist almost gave mine a passionate kiss with it's knuckles.

 

Yeah yeah, I know, I'll probably get labeled a whiner, told that the game doesn't need me, that the game is "perfect" now. Honestly, I had to quit Firefall due to the same frelling thing: Game is great for a year, then the devs throw something into the game that just breaks the entire experience. I don't expect to be listened to, but I'll plead: Please fix this change. Turn it back to the way it was, when the game actually felt really fun, and where you weren't wasting entire half hours in a hard stage. I'd like for all that hard work to amount to something that just a great big middle finger in my face.

[Ferriwind]

They should have kept affinity and credit gain, but the rest, mats and mods, should be lost on mission failure unless in defense, of course. It makes completing a mission a bit more intense, otherwise, it's just meh, I got the neural sensor I wanted, bye guys gL with completing the missions. It was added to prevent drop in, drop out rushers after all.

[neKroMancer]

You have to give DE better reason than "I fail but I still want to win". There is nothing hardcore or elitist about this mechanic - you lose you, get nothing - has been part of almost every kind of genre from action to 4X strategy.

 

I think it forces players to play better, to rethink their tactics, to adjust their loadouts. Without punishment, there is no learning curve. 

[PsychedelicSnake]

You have to give DE better reason than "I fail but I still want to win". There is nothing hardcore or elitist about this mechanic - you lose you, get nothing - has been part of almost every kind of genre from action to 4X strategy.

 

I think it forces players to play better, to rethink their tactics, to adjust their loadouts. Without punishment, there is no learning curve. 

 

True, but there is also the occasion where a bug forces a mission failure. Once I went to wave 30 on a high level area (forgot where). A bug eventually caused a mission failure. Tons of mods and tens of thousands of credits and affinity were gone.

[neKroMancer]

True, but there is also the occasion where a bug forces a mission failure. Once I went to wave 30 on a high level area (forgot where). A bug eventually caused a mission failure. Tons of mods and tens of thousands of credits and affinity were gone.

 

Report the bug. 

[whitejackale]

You have to give DE better reason than "I fail but I still want to win". There is nothing hardcore or elitist about this mechanic - you lose you, get nothing - has been part of almost every kind of genre from action to 4X strategy.

 

I think it forces players to play better, to rethink their tactics, to adjust their loadouts. Without punishment, there is no learning curve. 

I find that having negative side effects for failing missions makes the game more fun since you are challenged to complete the mission if you wish to be rewarded. This is why I feel like they should add modes that are even more difficult, such as only having one life and no rezes. That would be some real fun right there.

[xenapan]

Heard the new update dropped, saw the map UI, giggled with glee... then saw that the same ol' same ol' was in effect. You can strain your face off an entire mission, but if you fail it, you lose everything you gained.

 

Y'know, I played during the closed beta. I played during the open beta, before this system dropped. So I've got to ask: Why screw up such an amazing game with something this stupid? Is it for the hardcore people who spend all night stroking their e-peen about how hardcore they are? Is it to frustrate and aggitate the uninstall button of the users? Maybe you just have a thing against monitors, because my fist almost gave mine a passionate kiss with it's knuckles.

 

Yeah yeah, I know, I'll probably get labeled a whiner, told that the game doesn't need me, that the game is "perfect" now. Honestly, I had to quit Firefall due to the same frelling thing: Game is great for a year, then the devs throw something into the game that just breaks the entire experience. I don't expect to be listened to, but I'll plead: Please fix this change. Turn it back to the way it was, when the game actually felt really fun, and where you weren't wasting entire half hours in a hard stage. I'd like for all that hard work to amount to something that just a great big middle finger in my face.

Because people were basically looting all the defense map containers then failing it asap to farm resources fast. So.. they had to take out all the rewards on failed missions. Plus why should you be incentivised to fail? and if you REALLY wanted to quit.. you should have quit when they changed the old mods into the new mods and gave you cores :P or did you not remember update 7 where EVERYONE started again from scratch practically because they removed the node system from frames/weapons so there were no level based increases anymore and EVERYTHING was put onto the mods?

Edited July 14, 2013 by xenapan

[darkkterror]

Uumm...why wouldn't you lose everything for failing a mission?  The moment I started playing this game I had already assumed that failure would result in me gaining nothing.  It seemed like the logical thing to expect.  I can't remember the last time (if ever) I played a game that rewarded failure.

 

And honestly, how many times do you fail a mission?  The vast majority of this game is a cake walk.  The only time I fail a mission is high wave defense.  Granted, I haven't yet tried any Nightmare missions.  In my hundreds of hours of experience, mission failure is very, very uncommon.

[Raptros]

How is this a bad thing? You lose, you lose. Your warframe DIED in a mission, he ain't coming back home.

 

If you still gain stuff, it'll mean repercussions for losing are that much smaller. Eventually, it won't really matter if you lose or win, then whats the point?

 

All this game needs to get is harder, not easier. 

 

Remember when people would kill a boss and quit if they didn't drop anything? Yeah, nobody will care if they die now either.

 

No thanks, I prefer to lose my progress if I die. 

[Peetroolkah]

Report the bug. 

HA!

Last hour I TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REPORT a bug. Sorry but you forums doesn't make it easy :)

Edited July 14, 2013 by Peetroolkah

[RyuKaiser]

See? All I get on this topic is hardcore fanboys. "MAKE IT HARDER MAKE IT HARDER MY WEENIE ISN'T FEELING ANY BIGGER YET! NUR HURRRRRRR!". I played this game because it was casual enough to be fun, hard enough to be enjoyable. I do not enjoy "Roguelike" games, or Hardcore modes. I, in fact, am a firm believer that this sort of system should be put into Nightmare Mode, or some sort of Hardcore mode for people that want that sort of thing.

 

My main games for Co-Op (and where I'm pretty sure I lost about $60 to $80 of my money) is Dungeon Defenders and Killing Floor. Both are Co-Op focus, with DD having looting and whatnot, and Killing Floor being about damage and kills. If I fail you kill the Patriarch, I don't lose all my hard work. If the Eternia Crystal gets destroyed, all the drops I collected don't just disappear. The deeper the waves go, the better the stuff you get. THAT is the incentive to play well. You play well, you get better rewards. You get to the end of the mission and you get awesome things you couldn't get anywhere else.

 

Warframe has a lot of what I like, I really do enjoy the game. I just don't want the "hardcore" folk screwing up the game, much like how they don't want Casuals getting into Dark Souls and making it easier. Had the game started with these systems, I'd have been fine. They didn't have my money at that point. But they changed it, and now it sucks (yes, I am invoking a trope), and has thus caused me to refuse to upgrade to silver. Literally the day I returned and saw this system, I was about to upgrade to Silver to get the Vauban.

 

So... yeah. Like I said, There should be a mode or a difficulty where it gets rid of your progress, yet stuff drops like crazy. Preferably in the void. The main missions that you have to grind through should be casual. That's how I feel, anyway, and that's how I used to love the game.

Edited July 14, 2013 by RyuKaiser

[Tsukinoki]

The main reason?

People would run into a boss room, kill the boss, grab the loot and then IMMEADIENTLY quit the game.

If that person was the host he just caused a host migration, which most likely failed, and made it so that no one else got the BP or any of the other drops, and even if the host migration succeeded the drops all disappeared.

That is why.

it was ruining the game for a vast majority of players because if they ran with a PUG, 90% of the time the host would pick up the loot drops and quit, meaning no one else could.

They made it so that you lost everything if you quit/fail so that people wouldn't do that to screw over everyone else in the group.  And if you say "But they should only have it if you quit!" the host can *quickly* commit suicide on most missions and abandon...leading to the same problems.

it has NOTHING to do with elitism.

It has EVERYTHING to do with trying to prevent people from ruining the game experience for the people they partied with, because now if the boss drops anything, or you get any good mods, you have to finish the level meaning that everyone gets the rewards and not just the people who ran ahead and quit the mission before the host quit.

Please don't assume that everything the least bit difficult or inconveniencing is "elitism", just makes you look like a prick and a whiner.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Mythrex]

In trying really hard not to rage at you for this so bear with me. You still your affinity even if you fail just not as much (bonus (no S#&$ Sherlock...)) I don't think getting exp mats credits and mods for something you can't do is a good idea at all not to mention at that point you lose a mission and ur like wtv doesnt matter I still get everything and I can already think of crazy exploits with that system ie void system go in do a bit lose oooooooohh 70k! LET'S LOSE AGAIN! See my point?

[Tsukinoki]

@Mythrex
Especially since you dont lose your void key if you fail or quit.

Just think of the xp, credits and mod exploits that could be done with a single T3 void mission.

[RyuKaiser]

@Mythrex

Especially since you dont lose your void key if you fail or quit.

Just think of the xp, credits and mod exploits that could be done with a single T3 void mission.

 

That's entirely what I'm getting at though. Consume the key on use, and/or leave that sort of system to the Void, which in itself is literally "end game". Leave the missions themselves as casual, and fix the system to be on Dedicated Servers rather than Peer to Peer. I'm damn sure they can partner with several dedicated server services and use them if needed. Even better, put a reward at the end that you can't get anywhere else...

 

If you folks want to rage at me, go ahead. My gen was the gen that played Phantasy Star Online. Was there some cheating? Yes. But the game was also very solo friendly, and any drops you got you ended up keeping. No, I'm not saying First Come First Serve looting either (that stuff is terrible), What I am saying is that there are much better ways of doing this system, rather than punishing the many for the few. If the system was failing for find a proper host... that means the system itself is a failure and needs to be reworked. It's a bandaid that doesn't work very well.

 

If Killing Floor and Call of Duty can do Co-Op with dedicated servers, I don't see why this game can't, either. It could even be a service: Pay $5 to $10 monthly to always have a Dedicated Server watching your back, loading up any time you're in a group. Pipe dream I know, but dammit, at least I'm putting in ideas rather than bullcrapping around with what they've done.

[Tsukinoki]

That's entirely what I'm getting at though. Consume the key on use, and/or leave that sort of system to the Void, which in itself is literally "end game". Leave the missions themselves as casual, and fix the system to be on Dedicated Servers rather than Peer to Peer. I'm damn sure they can partner with several dedicated server services and use them if needed. Even better, put a reward at the end that you can't get anywhere else...

 

If you folks want to rage at me, go ahead. My gen was the gen that played Phantasy Star Online. Was there some cheating? Yes. But the game was also very solo friendly, and any drops you got you ended up keeping. No, I'm not saying First Come First Serve looting either (that stuff is terrible), What I am saying is that there are much better ways of doing this system, rather than punishing the many for the few. If the system was failing for find a proper host... that means the system itself is a failure and needs to be reworked. It's a bandaid that doesn't work very well.

 

If Killing Floor and Call of Duty can do Co-Op with dedicated servers, I don't see why this game can't, either. It could even be a service: Pay $5 to $10 monthly to always have a Dedicated Server watching your back, loading up any time you're in a group. Pipe dream I know, but dammit, at least I'm putting in ideas rather than bullcrapping around with what they've done.

The fact was that the MAJORITY of the player base was killing a boss, grabbing its loot and quitting.  Causing host migrations and leaving everyone else with no drops.  So NO this is not punishing the majority for the actions of a few, its 'punishing' the community for the actions of most of the community.

That was the problem that they wanted to solve and they did it.

They then found that people were then suiciding and aborting and causing the same exact issues so they fixed it.

They did this to make the overall experience of the game better, and it succeeded.

Now you can run through a boss rush in a pug and actually get loot and finish the match.

Before they did this 90% of boss runs, if you weren't the host, meant you got NONE of the boss loot.  How was it a good system where 90% of the runs you did ended with no rewards and only wasted time?

So this is a far better system.  The boss loot and quits have stopped.  People are actually getting the loot that they saw when the boss died.  This is infinitely better than it was prior.

And guess what?  You still keep your affinity earned, so its not a complete loss.  Im glad this game has a punishment for failure.  If you fail a mission, level up and try again!  Simple as that.  This game is still fairly easy (a bit harder since u9 hit, but not much).

And since when is failure an punishment?  I really would like to know when failing was a punishment and not the fault of the player...

To answer your "Dedicated servers"

DE does not have the money to pay for dedicated servers, simple as that.  That is why it is staying P2P.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki