Serration, Point Blank, Pressure Point, and Hornet Strike

[Lakais]

The main issue with these mods is that they are mandatory. You need to have these to operate in any mission outside of Earth's normal mission lineup. When the function they provide is so essential to actually playing the game, then they should be part of the weapon itself. 

Now, this does not mean that the mods themselves have to be removed. They could still be there, it's just the problem lies in their power. If, for example, the damage bonus they provided was useful, but marginal, then there'd be no issue. When a maxed out Serration only gave you 20% more base damage, I'd find it more likely to switch it out for something else more useful in a utility sense. 

But that creates a problem in the community. The backlash and toxic spill that would cause if these mods would get nerfed into the ground would be debilitating. Even if the overall outcome is positive for everyone involved. Long-timers will remember the drama when frame ability mods were integrated into the frame's progress. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Lakais

[chaotea]

8 hours ago, This_Machine said:

Your blowing things way out of proportion.

I dont think so. I think you've not thought through the consequences of what your proposing. I'm not trying to throw up rage here, i'm not trying to be mean, but what your suggesting has way more implications that just 'free up another mod slot'. All im saying is while the idea sounds good, you've got to really consider how it would effect new and existing players.

8 hours ago, This_Machine said:

I don't know where your getting all this from because I didn't mention any of it.

You can find where i was getting all of it from from the quotes above each section where i quoted things you said. The things i talked about that were primarily about things you didn't mention were part were i was talking about things you hadn't thought about.

8 hours ago, This_Machine said:

All this was meant to be, was an idea to free one mod sot up on weapons.

Which is all fine and well, but the means don't justify the end. While im open to the main idea, the issue is your idea about how this would be implemented that i find lacks foresight.

[chaotea]

28 minutes ago, Lakais said:

The main issue with these mods is that they are mandatory. You need to have these to operate in any mission outside of Earth's normal mission lineup. When the function they provide is so essential to actually playing the game, then they should be part of the weapon itself. 

Now, this does not mean that the mods themselves have to be removed. They could still be there, it's just the problem lies in their power. If, for example, the damage bonus they provided was useful, but marginal, then there'd be no issue. When a maxed out Serration only gave you 20% more base damage, I'd find it more likely to switch it out for something else more useful in a utility sense. 

But that creates a problem in the community. The backlash and toxic spill that would cause if these mods would get nerfed into the ground would be debilitating. Even if the overall outcome is positive for everyone involved. Long-timers will remember the drama when frame ability mods were integrated into the frame's progress. 

Yes, the main issue isnt the fact that these mods are 'mandatory', but rather the 'why' they are. If the elemental mods were buffed to the point that they had the same percentage boost as the damage mods then pure damage would become more of a choice (obviously this wouldn't happen, as the ballancing would get thrown out of proportion). As it is, you'd have to take 2-3 elemental mods just to match the damage mods.

[Lakais]

18 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Yes, the main issue isnt the fact that these mods are 'mandatory', but rather the 'why' they are. If the elemental mods were buffed to the point that they had the same percentage boost as the damage mods then pure damage would become more of a choice (obviously this wouldn't happen, as the ballancing would get thrown out of proportion). As it is, you'd have to take 2-3 elemental mods just to match the damage mods.

I don't know about that. Personally I think elemental damage is far too prominent in the game. Completely overshadowing the physical damage types. Elemental damage mods just... work too well. 

This is a bit of a derail from the topic but here goes: 

Elemental damage calculations add damage based on the total base damage (so all base damage types combined). While as dedicated IPS mods add damage based ONLY on their respective damage types. This results in the overall damage profile of the weapon being replaced with elemental combos. Not to mention the fact that you can't ADD IPS damage types to weapons. If a weapon doesn't have innate slash, you can't add slash. 

I think the relation between elemental and physical damage types should be that elemental types depend on enemy resistances to deal damage. They work by exploiting and working around the kinks in enemy defenses, not raw power, bypassing or ignoring those defenses and resistances to deal damage to enemy health. Physical damage types should be the "sledgehammer" approach. They smash the health WITH those defenses. One depends on smart setup and knowing your enemies. The other is all about stacking as high a number as you can get. Right now, BOTH these roles are easily covered by elemental damage types. 

EDIT: It stands to reason that elemental mods should be there to ENHANCE the performance of the physical damage types, not replace them. Unfortunately that is how the system works right now. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Lakais

[chaotea]

4 hours ago, Lakais said:

I don't know about that. Personally I think elemental damage is far too prominent in the game. Completely overshadowing the physical damage types. Elemental damage mods just... work too well.

Sorry, i count the physical damage stat mod (puncture, impact and slash) as elements. I forget that others dont. Think of my comment in those ways.

4 hours ago, Lakais said:

Elemental damage calculations add damage based on the total base damage (so all base damage types combined). While as dedicated IPS mods add damage based ONLY on their respective damage types. This results in the overall damage profile of the weapon being replaced with elemental combos. Not to mention the fact that you can't ADD IPS damage types to weapons. If a weapon doesn't have innate slash, you can't add slash. 

Ive mentioned this recently in another topic, but im of the opinion that the physical damage stat mods should be altered to work like elemental mods. This is part of what i ment as " balancing would get thrown out of proportion". I was just making a vague example.

4 hours ago, Lakais said:

I think the relation between elemental and physical damage types should be that elemental types depend on enemy resistances to deal damage. They work by exploiting and working around the kinks in enemy defenses, not raw power, bypassing or ignoring those defenses and resistances to deal damage to enemy health. Physical damage types should be the "sledgehammer" approach. They smash the health WITH those defenses. One depends on smart setup and knowing your enemies. The other is all about stacking as high a number as you can get. Right now, BOTH these roles are easily covered by elemental damage types. 

I see it more that elemental should be catering to specific enemy types, while physical should be more geared to general mechanics. (eg, toxic would be good against non-infested flesh enemies, while impact would be good vs shields). So you could make sure you have some impact if your going up against corpus, but them take elements depending on what type of corpus really annoys you. Basically a two teared approach.

4 hours ago, Lakais said:

EDIT: It stands to reason that elemental mods should be there to ENHANCE the performance of the physical damage types, not replace them. Unfortunately that is how the system works right now. 

I like the idea that they could do both, depending on player preference. We could focus on one particular aspect, or compensate for areas that are weaker.

 

--------------------------------------------------

I think generally, and this maybe my 'final answer' on the post (as in the conclusion ive come too, not that i'm dropping the mike :) ) would be that pure damage mods are too powerful (stats wise) compared to everything else. I think utility mods like more clip ammo and better reload would see far more use if their stats were much larger. And i'd be fine if DE reduced the stats on the generic damage mods while increasing the physical damage mods and elemental mods. Make general damage a 'jack of all trades master of none', and specific damage the focused and powerful upgrade. Thats just my thought on the issue anyway.

[Lakais]

9 hours ago, chaotea said:

Sorry, i count the physical damage stat mod (puncture, impact and slash) as elements. I forget that others dont. Think of my comment in those ways.

Ive mentioned this recently in another topic, but im of the opinion that the physical damage stat mods should be altered to work like elemental mods. This is part of what i ment as " balancing would get thrown out of proportion". I was just making a vague example.

I see it more that elemental should be catering to specific enemy types, while physical should be more geared to general mechanics. (eg, toxic would be good against non-infested flesh enemies, while impact would be good vs shields). So you could make sure you have some impact if your going up against corpus, but them take elements depending on what type of corpus really annoys you. Basically a two teared approach.

I like the idea that they could do both, depending on player preference. We could focus on one particular aspect, or compensate for areas that are weaker.

---------------------

I think generally, and this maybe my 'final answer' on the post (as in the conclusion ive come too, not that i'm dropping the mike :) ) would be that pure damage mods are too powerful (stats wise) compared to everything else. I think utility mods like more clip ammo and better reload would see far more use if their stats were much larger. And i'd be fine if DE reduced the stats on the generic damage mods while increasing the physical damage mods and elemental mods. Make general damage a 'jack of all trades master of none', and specific damage the focused and powerful upgrade. Thats just my thought on the issue anyway.

First part:

The option of making all unique damage type mods work the same way is an easy one. But it's also not the best. Or at least not an interesting one. I also think that one argument to be made for the current system is that it allows for any weapon to be useful against any faction. Useful quality. Question is, which one DE would prefer: An arsenal where the base damage types are not nearly as important as the total number they add up to. Or one where their innate damage properties plays a larger role in choosing. Now saying this, I'm not claiming that IPS damage types are completely useless.

My problem lies primarily in elemental damage mods basically coming with no restrictions or with any kind of "diminishing return" caveat. You can keep adding unique rainbow element mods and the +% keep adding up. Four mods per element combo. Five if the combo includes fire (maybe even six with some weapon types, have to look into it). Point is, rainbow elements have a stupid range of flexibility, utility and power compared to IPS types. I just wish that either the power part get toned down, or IPS be given a bit of love to be the "power" portion of a weapon. 

Second part: 

I think DE went bit off the rails when they implemented any damage boost mod (even specific type) with bonuses of over 100%. Anything over 20% is asking for this "mandatory" tag. And DE has lamented over this ages past. Pure damage, simply by it's overly mandatory nature, have become so integral to the weapon lineup that integrating them into weapon's own progression is, basically, a no-brainer. For me at least. DE_Scott might have other things to say. Problem is not with building this feature into weapons but what comes after. Will these mods be removed or nerfed? Either way you look at it, people will get pissed. Some worked quite hard to get that Serration up to R10. And now it'd be removed, replaced or nerfed. Regardless of the net outcome, some would not stand for their toy being tampered with. 

I also agree that some of these utility mods might need a boost to make them more viable. But then again there might be some limit or reason why they are what they are. Hard to say when you're not DE's Scott or Steve. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Lakais

[chaotea]

9 hours ago, Lakais said:

First part:

The option of making all unique damage type mods work the same way is an easy one. But it's also not the best. Or at least not an interesting one. I also think that one argument to be made for the current system is that it allows for any weapon to be useful against any faction. Useful quality. Question is, which one DE would prefer: An arsenal where the base damage types are not nearly as important as the total number they add up to. Or one where their innate damage properties plays a larger role in choosing. Now saying this, I'm not claiming that IPS damage types are completely useless.

My problem lies primarily in elemental damage mods basically coming with no restrictions or with any kind of "diminishing return" caveat. You can keep adding unique rainbow element mods and the +% keep adding up. Four mods per element combo. Five if the combo includes fire (maybe even six with some weapon types, have to look into it). Point is, rainbow elements have a stupid range of flexibility, utility and power compared to IPS types. I just wish that either the power part get toned down, or IPS be given a bit of love to be the "power" portion of a weapon. 

Second part: 

I think DE went bit off the rails when they implemented any damage boost mod (even specific type) with bonuses of over 100%. Anything over 20% is asking for this "mandatory" tag. And DE has lamented over this ages past. Pure damage, simply by it's overly mandatory nature, have become so integral to the weapon lineup that integrating them into weapon's own progression is, basically, a no-brainer. For me at least. DE_Scott might have other things to say. Problem is not with building this feature into weapons but what comes after. Will these mods be removed or nerfed? Either way you look at it, people will get pissed. Some worked quite hard to get that Serration up to R10. And now it'd be removed, replaced or nerfed. Regardless of the net outcome, some would not stand for their toy being tampered with. 

I also agree that some of these utility mods might need a boost to make them more viable. But then again there might be some limit or reason why they are what they are. Hard to say when you're not DE's Scott or Steve. 

First part:

Yea, im pretty much with you here. It would be nice if IPS was for damage and elemental was for status, it'd give a good range.

Second part:

I dont think it realy matters what stat % you have, as if every mod maxed at a 100% increase, then no mod would be any more mandatory than any other. The issue comes when 1 mod gives +200% damage, and another gives 90%.

If one mod game +100% damage, another gave +100% multishot, another +100% fire rate and another 100% clip size, you'd be hard pressed to say which one was better, other than really diving into the stats.

[Lakais]

7 minutes ago, chaotea said:

I dont think it realy matters what stat % you have, as if every mod maxed at a 100% increase, then no mod would be any more mandatory than any other. The issue comes when 1 mod gives +200% damage, and another gives 90%.

If one mod game +100% damage, another gave +100% multishot, another +100% fire rate and another 100% clip size, you'd be hard pressed to say which one was better, other than really diving into the stats.

Well, there actually is a difference. With exceptions to +damage and the current (bugged) multishot. All other such mods are dependent on the weapon's stats. Putting mag size on a 1-5 round weapon isn't useful. Putting fire rate on a weapon with already insanely high fire rate or a stupid long reload time weapon is also a questionable choice. 

Point being that having equal percentage of bonus does not make them equally useful. 

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, Lakais said:

Well, there actually is a difference. With exceptions to +damage and the current (bugged) multishot. All other such mods are dependent on the weapon's stats. Putting mag size on a 1-5 round weapon isn't useful. Putting fire rate on a weapon with already insanely high fire rate or a stupid long reload time weapon is also a questionable choice. 

Point being that having equal percentage of bonus does not make them equally useful. 

I think its just down to the example you pick. On a weapon with a really high fire rate which relies on status procs, but has really low damage, a firerate may be better than damage. (or something like the ogris where the ability to fire a quick shot is better than a moderate damage increase). Plus if that weapon with a mag size of 1-5 had a relatively long reload time, but already had a high enough damage, extra ammo in the magazine would be arguably better.

While having an even percentage of bonus doesnt make them equally useful in every situation, it would be very context based. But more importantly, it would make weighing up which maxed mods to have in your build so much easier. Knowing that your mods will double the stat, regardless of the mod or stat, will make it easier to decide which values are worth expanding.

[Neightrix]

They're not going away. That's a rumor from an idea from a dev stream over 16 months ago.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Neightrix

[Lakais]

On 5.5.2017 at 2:13 PM, chaotea said:

I think its just down to the example you pick. On a weapon with a really high fire rate which relies on status procs, but has really low damage, a firerate may be better than damage. (or something like the ogris where the ability to fire a quick shot is better than a moderate damage increase). Plus if that weapon with a mag size of 1-5 had a relatively long reload time, but already had a high enough damage, extra ammo in the magazine would be arguably better.

While having an even percentage of bonus doesnt make them equally useful in every situation, it would be very context based. But more importantly, it would make weighing up which maxed mods to have in your build so much easier. Knowing that your mods will double the stat, regardless of the mod or stat, will make it easier to decide which values are worth expanding.

The issues with your examples is that they only work in mid tier gameplay. Warframe is an endlessly scaling mire. A choice I think the devs have regretted at some point. A gun that doesn't kill is useless. Even if it stunlocks the enemy without problems, it still doesn't "fix the issue" of you being stuck there knocking over these enemies. It's a case of you being Dormammu and the enemy is Dr. Strange. Most of us know how that worked out. 

Second is the functional benefit of a pure damage upgrade. In a case of having to choose between doubling a weapon's damage, mag size or fire rate. The choice of double damage is in theory, functionally doing the same as choosing the other two at the same time. You spend half as much ammo per enemy, thus you kill twice as many. Effectively doubling your mag size. And since it takes half as many bullets per enemy, you spend less time on an enemy, halfing the TTK. Essentially improving your fire rate. You kill your enemy faster, using less ammo, when you choose to double the damage number. Neither of the other two have that effect. 

The "moderate damage increase" has to be just that, moderate. Same with EVERY other mod that directly increased DPS. And that can only be done by two types of mods: Ones that add or increase damage per tick (mostly seen as bullets). And others that increase the number of ticks per second. +dmg mods fall into the former category. Be it just pure +dmg or elemental dmg. Second is covered by fire rate mods. Multishot sort of covers both categories but more rightly belongs in the later one. Critical hit damage mods fall under the DPS category in weapons where the chance can be modded to be higher then 100%. At that point it becomes a boost, not a random bonus. 

Everything else is support. They are gravy. There to enhance and improve your ability to reach that theoretical max DPS. 

If we want for pure +dmg mods to not be "mandatory" without changing how the enemy scaling works, their function needs to be built into the weapons themselves, and the mods be essentially nerfed into the ground so they become a choice dependent on individual wants. Most other mods have some functional limit to what they can or can't be made into. Fire rate for example has a functional limit. Above that and the game engine will not be able to handle the calculations and you will "lose bullets", animations will glitch out, sound can't keep up. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Lakais
Clarification

[chaotea]

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

The issues with your examples is that they only work in mid tier gameplay.

Not sure how true this is, as while i agree damage is important at high tier, i often find status helps more. Corrosive makes armored enemies soft, bleed cuts down enemies greatly and blast perma-stuns an enemy. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter too much. The point of my example was that while the mods might change, the balance of enemy scaling would also need to change. In a system where damage mods arnt as overpowered compared to everything else, the enemies could be re-balanced to focus more on unit diversity instead of climbing health pools. As i mentioned to the OP, changing any aspect of the damage system would massively impact almost every other aspect of the game.

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

Second is the functional benefit of a pure damage upgrade. In a case of having to choose between doubling a weapon's damage, mag size or fire rate. The choice of double damage is in theory, functionally doing the same as choosing the other two at the same time. You spend half as much ammo per enemy, thus you kill twice as many. Effectively doubling your mag size. And since it takes half as many bullets per enemy, you spend less time on an enemy, halfing the TTK. Essentially improving your fire rate. You kill your enemy faster, using less ammo, when you choose to double the damage number. Neither of the other two have that effect. 

Again, this is quite subjective. Doubling the firerate effectively doubles the crit chance, while doubling the damage doesnt. It also doubles the status proc chance. Still, the differences between the choices would be minimal, and the aim of my suggestion was to put the choice more into the players preference. Under the current system you're, as you said, sort of pushed towards damage mods. Anything else just isnt as efficient, both because enemy hp is so high, and damage mod benefit vastly outweighs any utility mods.

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

The "moderate damage increase" has to be just that, moderate. Same with EVERY other mod that directly increased DPS.

Again, just to clarify (i think i wasnt clear on my thought process) The idea is to make other utility mods more viable by bringing the bonus's in line with high % damage mods. The idea of lowering damage to 100% and increasing other mods too 100% would be primarily for statistical clarity. When you know that at max any mod will double the stat, you could figure out how you could mod a weapon without needing to swap through every mod to check. Still, regardless of when the changes were, enemy hp and resistances would need to be modified.

Interesting things could be added to this more balanced scheme. Maybe some enemies would gain more armor the more hits they take (so high damage per shot would be valuable), while others could have the opposite. Some enemies could get damage buffs at closer ranges, making good range a priority. Querks like that could make enemies tougher in a way that isnt a stat increase or resistance type. Thats my 'dream' for the damage system.

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

Everything else is support. They are gravy. There to enhance and improve your ability to reach that theoretical max DPS. 

My suggestions were that the system itself could be altered so that taking non-dps would become equally viable to dps. I agree that at the moment DPS is the most important.

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

If we want for pure +dmg mods to not be "mandatory" without changing how the enemy scaling works,

I dont think its possible to do this. Enemy scaling will have to be changed regardless.

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

function needs to be built into the weapons themselves, and the mods be essentially nerfed into the ground so they become a choice dependent on individual wants

Yes, i agree here. Though the issue is that by increasing the damage of a weapon, early game enemies would need to be balanced accordingly. (not to mention rivens)

On 06/05/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lakais said:

Fire rate for example has a functional limit.

True, but the same can be said for anything. Damage is probably capped at a certain amount of digits. But there's ways around all of those so i dont see it as a big issue, or at least not one that should be looked at until it becomes an issue, at which case you cap things to avoid it. Not expanding because there might be a cap would be odd. (whats firerate at the moment anyway. Is it 90% on primary's?)

 

On a side note, i feel bad we've basically high-jacked the OP's thread. Still, im really enjoying this discussion :) You've given me alot to think about.

[Lakais]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Cut for brevity. 

I also enjoyed this. I admit I probably read some of your points wrong on mod values and I agree with the concept that utility mods would heavily benefit from bumped up boost. And some of my points may have been made from an overly simplified view. 

I agree with the direction of imposing difficulty via enemy diversity not artificial increase in enemy stats. This is why I sometimes mention that DE could of considered a non-scaling enemy system where the challenge is determined via the type of enemy and how many there are. But doing this now would demand a full rebalance of damn near every weapon, mod and ability. So I don't see that happening ever. 

The entire ecology that is the warframe combat system is so stupidly complex that a change as simple as the main discussion of this topic can have repercussions we don't want. Or none at all. Both are equally bad. And everything ties into something else. This is why I hope any such change will be part of something far more massive. We'll just have to wait and see. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Lakais

[chaotea]

21 hours ago, Lakais said:

But doing this now would demand a full rebalance of damn near every weapon, mod and ability. So I don't see that happening ever.

I don't see it being impossible, when you consider the overhauls they've done in the past like damage 2.0 and parcore 2.0, but it would be a massive undertaking.

21 hours ago, Lakais said:

This is why I hope any such change will be part of something far more massive. We'll just have to wait and see. 

I hope that they begin testing elements of it with new enemies, then maybe slowly backdate it to other enemy types.