Oberon Prime offensive on a cultural/religious level

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

13 minutes ago, K4nzler said:

The nice thing about freedom of speech is, we don't need to care about anything.
As long as you don't harm people on a physical level you are good to go. And the good thing is that Art (at least in the States) is covered with similar laws and rules.
Your friend did the right thing. He uninstalled the game and abra-hecking-cadabra problem solved.

With great power comes great responsibility.  Sure, the law allows for us to be as offensive as we want, but does that mean that we should do it or that it's OK to do it?

13 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Seriously where are these data mined/leaked Oberon Prime images?  And seriously, someone is getting butt blasted over an in game image?  For the love of Lotus people need to seriously quit being such pussies.....

Physician, heal thyself.

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Spaztic Magic said:

Point is, there's really no need to go looking for things to be offended about. Life is offensive enough for real. A game, an entertainment source, doesn't need to get bogged down with the rhetoric of being needlessly offended. It's really rather counter productive.

No one goes around looking for things to be offended about.  And, life is offensive enough, so why would people want offensive in a game that is for their entertainment.  That would be counter productive.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

5 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

I posted a pic of a sheep in the previous page. My recommendation is you save it. You'll understand soonTM.

I have heard quite a few people talking about Goatframe.

Still, the point I was trying to make is that we should be so quick to attack when someone brings up an experience.

[PrVonTuckIII]

4 minutes ago, THeMooN85 said:

Those are all just conjectures and fanarts! There's no official info about him and his Prime version.

His pictures, along with those of the [Redacted] Prime and [Redacted] Prime have been datamined on Reddit. View at your own risk.

Otherwise, let this topic die. It's not offensive. As the person who is a part of the culture which is being 'targeted' here, I'm honestly more offended by the people getting offended on my behalf. There's nothing wrong except for Oberon in himself still being a mediocre Warframe. 

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

I have heard quite a few people talking about Goatframe.

Still, the point I was trying to make is that we should be so quick to attack when someone brings up an experience.

I usually wouldn't, but lately there seems to be this weird trend. And the issue, in this very case, is I know it's not looking like that at all.

With Saita Prime, I know that even though it was not their intention, it was indeed really ressemblant. In this case it is not at all. And the last thing I'd like is to see this kind of stuff happening again, on such an obvious "not really" case. Because it's basically meaning that at any point anything can be changed.

Maybe it's just that I have been saving the money for this PA for 10 months and I have finally made up my mind about it. I don't know.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

4 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Otherwise, let this topic die. It's not offensive. As the person who is a part of the culture which is being 'targeted' here, I'm honestly more offended by the people getting offended on my behalf. There's nothing wrong except for Oberon in himself still being a mediocre Warframe. 

That you don't find it offensive doesn't mean that other Hindus won't.  If we find one person of any group that agrees with us on a subject, we can't extrapolate that to the whole group.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 minute ago, NightmareT12 said:

I usually wouldn't, but lately there seems to be this weird trend. And the issue, in this very case, is I know it's not looking like that at all.

With Saita Prime, I know that even though it was not their intention, it was indeed really ressemblant. In this case it is not at all. And the last thing I'd like is to see this kind of stuff happening again, on such an obvious "not really" case. Because it's basically meaning that at any point anything can be changed.

Maybe it's just that I have been saving the money for this PA for 10 months and I have finally made up my mind about it. I don't know.

Fair enough - that's your experience.

I just don't see the issue with bringing up a potential issue and letting DE decide, especially since WF is still in "beta" (yeah, right) and technically everything is subject to change.  I'm sure you'd still get the PA even if DE did decide to modify the artwork, because you haven't even gotten a chance to see the real thing (datamined images are no substitute to having it on your screen in your colors) yet.  I hope you enjoy the PA.

[Doomsknightmare]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

That you don't find it offensive doesn't mean that other Hindus won't.  If we find one person of any group that agrees with us on a subject, we can't extrapolate that to the whole group.

+1. But DE is all for business, and I doubt they will change his helmet because of this with the PA coming in less than 2 weeks.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

That you don't find it offensive doesn't mean that other Hindus won't.  If we find one person of any group that agrees with us on a subject, we can't extrapolate that to the whole group.

But this works vice versa as well. Why should those who are offended (regardless of number) have a greater voice than those who aren't?

[NightmareT12]

Just now, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Fair enough - that's your experience.

I just don't see the issue with bringing up a potential issue and letting DE decide, especially since WF is still in "beta" (yeah, right) and technically everything is subject to change.  I'm sure you'd still get the PA even if DE did decide to modify the artwork, because you haven't even gotten a chance to see the real thing (datamined images are no substitute to having it on your screen in your colors) yet.  I hope you enjoy the PA.

What I saw is final, anyways. But no, I wouldn't get it in such a case because it would be the equivalent of investing on something risky. It's not the first time they change something after I purchased it, and I can't be really comfortable putting money into the game with such big changes, so as to speak.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Spaztic Magic said:

Offense could be taken by any number of things in this game, if you wanted to, if you were looking for a topic to rattle your cage about...

1. Original Oberon: very much the "white stag" image, a sacred creature in many indigenous cultures of Europe and even Japan.

2. The deluxe skin/syandana for Nova: multiple arms much like various Hindu/Buddhist deities/figures.

3. Titania: a "pixie" frame, derived from the wee folk found throughout western European indigenous culture, particularly Ireland.

4. Nezha: Taken pretty much directly from Chinese mythos.

5. Wukong: The Monkey King, also taken directly from Chinese mythos.

6. Chroma deluxe skin: "Swastikas" that are actually more like fans or the Northern Star of Buddhist iconography (let's also not ignore the heavy Chinese design influences).

7. The Corpus: Much like large corporations at their worst, could be spun to echo the capitalism culture of the United States.

8. Grineer: Echoes of the genocidal military campaigns of many nations in human history.

9. Kubrows/Kavats: Killing animals and then genetically messing around with them to make your own.

10. Inaros: a "mummy" frame, mummification is a burial ritual found all over the world in various cultures.

Pick your target...there are plenty more, if you go hunting, Tenno...

Point is, there's really no need to go looking for things to be offended about. Life is offensive enough for real. A game, an entertainment source, doesn't need to get bogged down with the rhetoric of being needlessly offended. It's really rather counter productive.

None of these are examples of quite the same thing. This is more akin to the cartoonists getting killed/episode of south park getting banned (both because of portraying mohammad, something the base religion is offended by.) Its not a case of just using a name of image or theme, its directly tying something offensive to a religion too that same religions visual representation. 

That aside, i really didnt make this post to cause a stir or a flame war. I made it to inform DE of something they may not have thought of before its (potentially) an issue. If they dont change it, ok. If i dont like how it looks, whatever. I probably wont, no biggie. Im not trying to be the guy thats up in arms and offended, screaming "change it now!" im the guy saying "just so u know, this could be an issue, might wanna take a look at it"

 

 

[PrVonTuckIII]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

That you don't find it offensive doesn't mean that other Hindus won't.  If we find one person of any group that agrees with us on a subject, we can't extrapolate that to the whole group.

This goes the other way too. If my opinion is statistically worthless, so is the OP's friend, because as of now, he is the only one who has shown any real insult (allegedly) to this.

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

"just so u know, this could be an issue, might wanna take a look at it"

One person becoming offended (over nothing, IMO) is not 'a possible issue.' 

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

3 minutes ago, Doomerang said:

+1. But DE is all for business, and I doubt they will change his helmet because of this with the PA coming in less than 2 weeks.

Agreed.  I highly doubt they would make a change at this time, especially if the files are already in the console build in preparation for the PA.

Just now, NightmareT12 said:

What I saw is final, anyways. But no, I wouldn't get it in such a case because it would be the equivalent of investing on something risky. It's not the first time they change something after I purchased it, and I can't be really comfortable putting money into the game with such big changes, so as to speak.

You're probably safe.

1 minute ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

But this works vice versa as well. Why should those who are offended (regardless of number) have a greater voice than those who aren't?

That's a relevant and good question.  I would say that if there's a question where you have only 2 choices and each choice is offensive to some group, then one has to make some sort of decision based on what level of harm they are willing to partake and toward which group.  It could be that one group is offended but won't see actual harm while the other group would see actual harm.  In that case, it would be up to the person making the choice to, hopefully, decide to do less actual harm.  I see this as close to what's happening in the southern US right now with the removal of monuments.

That's not what we are seeing in this situation though, if we grant that the image is offensive to some Hindus.  There are many, many choices that can be made that would be inoffensive to all involved.  It would be up to DE to decide if they would want to take the effort to make a change to come up with something different and it would have to be their moral/risk/time/money calculation that they undergo to decide if it's worth it or not.  But, I don't see this as a zero-sum game in this instance.

Does that answer your question?

[NightmareT12]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

None of these are examples of quite the same thing. This is more akin to the cartoonists getting killed/episode of south park getting banned (both because of portraying mohammad, something the base religion is offended by.) Its not a case of just using a name of image or theme, its directly tying something offensive to a religion too that same religions visual representation. 

That aside, i really didnt make this post to cause a stir or a flame war. I made it to inform DE of something they may not have thought of before its (potentially) an issue. If they dont change it, ok. If i dont like how it looks, whatever. I probably wont, no biggie. Im not trying to be the guy thats up in arms and offended, screaming "change it now!" im the guy saying "just so u know, this could be an issue, might wanna take a look at it"

The problem is, the horns are looking like a part of the ram/sheep family instead of the bovine family. I literally googled the sacred bovine figure (Nandi?) and out of 30 pictures I had in front of me, only one looked remotely similar to Oberon.

Whereas if you search for rams or sheeps, you can find similar horns. Similarities that are included design wise, and mind you, in the whole Oberon theme (both alternate helmets included).

If what you described really happened, my recommendation is you should explain this to them. Because in all details and design calls, that design is based on the sheep/ram family.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

4 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

This goes the other way too. If my opinion is statistically worthless, so is the OP's friend, because as of now, he is the only one who has shown any real insult (allegedly) to this.

One person becoming offended (over nothing, IMO) is not 'a possible issue.' 

I didn't say your opinion is statistically worthless.  I said it would be wrong of us to latch onto a confirming opinion and apply it to a diverse group of people simply because they share a specific trait.  That's one of the definitions of bigotry.

And, it's not one person becoming offended being a possible issue, it's that some people could be offended, and it's something DE may want to know about so they can make an informed decision.  More information is better than less information.  And, let me be clear, that you don't find it offensive is part of that information they need to take into account, so thank you for sharing that.

[(XBOX)Spaztic Magic]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

No one goes around looking for things to be offended about.  And, life is offensive enough, so why would people want offensive in a game that is for their entertainment.  That would be counter productive.

I beg to differ, my own experiences speak directly to the contrary about the pursuit of finding things to be offended by. As I mentioned before, there is plenty to get offended by in WF, if you look hard enough and want it to be there in that light.

 

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

None of these are examples of quite the same thing. This is more akin to the cartoonists getting killed/episode of south park getting banned (both because of portraying mohammad, something the base religion is offended by.) Its not a case of just using a name of image or theme, its directly tying something offensive to a religion too that same religions visual representation. 

That aside, i really didnt make this post to cause a stir or a flame war. I made it to inform DE of something they may not have thought of before its (potentially) an issue. If they dont change it, ok. If i dont like how it looks, whatever. I probably wont, no biggie. Im not trying to be the guy thats up in arms and offended, screaming "change it now!" im the guy saying "just so u know, this could be an issue, might wanna take a look at it"

I doubt there's any direct tying of anything to anyone's religion in any of WF's aesthetics. Imagery is imagery and it is very much the same thing...anyone who holds those images as "sacred" could take issue with the fact they're being stylized and used to commit acts of violence and theft. That same group can easily simply not partake.

I acknowledge your post and I do believe you should have posted such an experience. I'm glad you did. I just feel moved to point out that the slope of "X is offensive because..." is a very slippery one that usually leads directly to a cesspit.

[PrVonTuckIII]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

That's not what we are seeing in this situation though, if we grant that the image is offensive to some Hindus.

But it's not. Forget opinions. If you're going to call it offensive to Hindus because 'horns,' that's even more insulting. What you people are literally saying here is 'it has horns, and Nandi has horns, therefore it is offensive.' See how ridiculous that sounds? As @NightmareT12 pointed out, Oberon is based around goats. Not Nandi, not Hindus, nothing else. Goats.

[aidan890]

Hey All,

I am going to go ahead and lock this thread as it has quickly turned quite toxic. I have cleaned the thread for some of its more disrespectful posts and would like to remind everyone that this forum is a place for others to share criticism of the game, its imagery, and to share how they feel about it. Feedback like this is always valuable to us and we thank @(XB1)ashes of suvius for bringing their concerns to our attention. Thoughtful criticism is always welcome. That is one hundred percent the purpose of a forum. That being said, others are always free to disagree with anything anyone says in a post, as long as they conduct themselves in a respectful and moderate manner, as according to our community guidelines. 

No one wins when we fail to have considerate and respectful dialogue. I am not asking anyone to change their mind or point of view, but I am asking many of you to consider the language you used to address this issue and moving forward, to ensure that Warframe and its forums are a comfortable place for Warframe players to discuss, debate, and bond.

Thank you, Locked.

[DE]Aidan