Kuva Defense Sortie

[(XBOX)PichuFrenzy]

When fighting against the map is more challenging than fighting against the enemy. 

I know there are already multiple topics about it, but operatives going inside toxic gas sprays is still a thing. 

Simple suggestions to improve this mission:

• Remove the gas when the mission is using a Tenno operative as a defense objective
• Make the Tenno operative immune to the gas
• Bring back the Kuva injector instead of the Tenno operative

[CoffeeMonster42]

It's totally broken. If the enemies aren't getting stuck it's the operative committing suicide.

[Xekrin]

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)B2T PichuFrenzy said:

Simple suggestions to improve this mission:

• give the operative more common sense than a 2 year old so it does not go into dangerous areas.
• Make the operative an actual 2 year old so it at least makes sense when it goes into dangerous areas.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Xekrin

[Retequizzle]

Even though I was able to finish the sortie with relative ease, the only reasons I was able to was because:

1. I was running Saryn with Regenerative Molt
2. Arcane Grace set
3. New Loka's Ancient Specters so I could focus more on babysitting.

As is, it's a wonder the Operative ever made it out of his cradle let alone his cryopod with how stupid the AI is.  Yes, bringing loadouts that take environmental hazards into account should be something to expect from sorties, but having to also compensate for terrible AI pathing/decision-making along with rolling the dice with randoms is asking a bit much.

[Faulcun]

The enemies getting stuck is stupid, but I like the mission as it is. Yeah, its silly that the operative walks into the gas, but what if the enemies dragged the operative into the gas instead? The situation would still be the same.

Then again, I welcome the extra challenge. People complain about artificial difficulty with broken scaling. People complain about environmental difficulty instead. If you got rid of the gas or whatever else, then what? It wouldnt be so bad? It would be like every other defense mission?

Isnt that kinda the point to be hard? Its supposed to suck. Its supposed to make you come up with a plan other than spam 4 and hope theres an EV trin in your group.

I love it broken or not. I wish the sorties were harder than they are. They are supposed to be end game content. Id rather take 10 attempts rather than the other 2900 hours of easy that ive spent.

In fact, they should enable friendly fire on all sortie missions. Watch the community melt.

[Retequizzle]

17 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

The enemies getting stuck is stupid, but I like the mission as it is. Yeah, its silly that the operative walks into the gas, but what if the enemies dragged the operative into the gas instead? The situation would still be the same.

Instead, we have the operative waltzing into the gas shower like World War II never happened and then being surprised. "I'm down! Tenno, help!"

At least have him have an ounce of common sense.

[Faulcun]

7 minutes ago, Retequizzle said:

Instead, we have the operative waltzing into the gas shower like World War II never happened and then being surprised. "I'm down! Tenno, help!"

 

At least have him have an ounce of common sense.

I feel like im responding to your comment with the same thing i already posted.

So you give the operator common sense so he doesnt walk into the gas....... but the enemies drag him into the gas against his will instead. The situation does not change... the operator is still in the gas, and you still have to go in there and revive him.

My point is... if it were a feature of the mission, then what? People will still cry its not fair.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Faulcun

[(PSN)HarryMuff]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

I feel like im responding to your comment with the same thing i already posted.

So you give the operator common sense so he doesnt walk into the gas....... but the enemies drag him into the gas against his will instead. The situation does not change... the operator is still in the gas, and you still have to go in there and revive him.

My point is... if it were a feature of the mission, then what? People will still cry its not fair.

 

There were no enemies in there, he was just standing there and dying over and over. If they drag him into the gas, we kill them, revive him and he leaves. 

[Faulcun]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)HarryMuff said:

 

There were no enemies in there, he was just standing there and dying over and over. If they drag him into the gas, we kill them, revive him and he leaves. 

regardless, i still think they need to make those missions harder. A change in pace is needed.

[(PSN)HarryMuff]

You want dumb AI, simple as that.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, (PS4)HarryMuff said:

You want dumb AI, simple as that.

No, I want a challenge. Even the OP said it was more of a challenge than fighting actual enemies.

But ill take it any way i can get it even if I have to put up with dumb AI in the process.

[Retequizzle]

3 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I feel like im responding to your comment with the same thing i already posted.

So you give the operator common sense so he doesnt walk into the gas....... but the enemies drag him into the gas against his will instead. The situation does not change... the operator is still in the gas, and you still have to go in there and revive him.

My point is... if it were a feature of the mission, then what? People will still cry its not fair.

Well it's not my intent to make you feel like a broken record.  I understood your point the first time.

I'm saying that him being dragged to his doom would at least make sense at that point, if that were the case. The AI casually walking into a hazard is entirely different from something pulling him into the hazard.  Yes, the end result is the same if nothing is done to the contrary.  I can kill enemies that may drag/push/pull/otherwise-move the operative in a direction.  I cannot influence an allied AI unit in terms of which direction they should/should not go.  Even if we acknowledge that there are several Warframes with varying degrees of CC that can affect allies (Loki, Nova, Valkyr), it's pretty evident it wasn't done by design.  If they outright say it's intended for the AI to actively seek out hazards to kill himself, then my only complaint at that point is that it's a lazy solution for coming up with added levels of difficulty.

Ultimately though, my point is this.  Enemies dragging operatives into the hazards is good design, the AI deciding that he simply doesn't belong in this world and taking the easy way out is not.  Difficulty by intent/design does not equate to difficulty by proxy. 

For the record - I agree with you when I say I'm all for mind-meltingly difficult missions but even with that in mind, I can still acknowledge that AI pathing not recognizing hazards is pretty dumb, especially under the premise of difficulty padding.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, Retequizzle said:

Well it's not my intent to make you feel like a broken record.  I understood your point the first time.

I'm saying that him being dragged to his doom would at least make sense at that point, if that were the case. The AI casually walking into a hazard is entirely different from something pulling him into the hazard.  Yes, the end result is the same if nothing is done to the contrary.  I can kill enemies that may drag/push/pull/otherwise-move the operative in a direction.  I cannot influence an allied AI unit in terms of which direction they should/should not go.  Even if we acknowledge that there are several Warframes with varying degrees of CC that can affect allies (Loki, Nova, Valkyr), it's pretty evident it wasn't done by design.  If they outright say it's intended for the AI to actively seek out hazards to kill himself, then my only complaint at that point is that it's a lazy solution for coming up with added levels of difficulty.

Ultimately though, my point is this.  Enemies dragging operatives into the hazards is good design, the AI deciding that he simply doesn't belong in this world and taking the easy way out is not.  Difficulty by intent/design does not equate to difficulty by proxy. 

For the record - I agree with you when I say I'm all for mind-meltingly difficult missions but even with that in mind, I can still acknowledge that AI pathing not recognizing hazards is pretty dumb, especially under the premise of difficulty padding.

I agree with that 100%

However, im sure we can agree that threads like these get started because Player X says to himself "I could beat this mission if -input random excuse-" (not accusing anybody here)

But this is a bad reason to change something, broken or not. Im not saying we shouldnt fix something broken, but as a motivated player, I look at the situation as it is at face value. In this instance, the target is taking constant damage from -insert random source-. It doesnt really matter what the source is or why, we simply need to protect the target and revive if needed.

We just had an event similar to this where we had to rescue grineer defectors and escort them to evacuation. Similarly, the targets took environmental damage because reasons. The approach isnt any different despite whether it makes sense or not why the target is taking damage or what we have to do about it.

Fix it if its broke, sure, but maintain the level of difficulty. Just dont fix it because easier.... or whatever else.

[DSpite]

6 hours ago, Faulcun said:

The enemies getting stuck is stupid, but I like the mission as it is. Yeah, its silly that the operative walks into the gas, but what if the enemies dragged the operative into the gas instead? The situation would still be the same.

Then again, I welcome the extra challenge. People complain about artificial difficulty with broken scaling. People complain about environmental difficulty instead. If you got rid of the gas or whatever else, then what? It wouldnt be so bad? It would be like every other defense mission?

Isnt that kinda the point to be hard? Its supposed to suck. Its supposed to make you come up with a plan other than spam 4 and hope theres an EV trin in your group.

I love it broken or not. I wish the sorties were harder than they are. They are supposed to be end game content. Id rather take 10 attempts rather than the other 2900 hours of easy that ive spent.

In fact, they should enable friendly fire on all sortie missions. Watch the community melt.

For the record, this particular level of "arbitrary difficulty" was a bit stupid.

First off, it's naturally extra dark in there, so I could barely see units against dark backgrounds. Add in a Nidus putting down plants, someone putting out a Shield Osprey Specter with lightning everywhere ... urgh. I burned up around 30-40 Energy Restores in the end just to spam Stomp because I had no other real options to tell what the hell was going on. Even when they were floating in the air they were hard to see. Without Radar I would still be half blind.

Our team restarted that mission 4(?) times (I found it nice that no one rage quitted actually, so we kept the team). The first time I actually typed "what killed us and the target?" and no one answered "gas" the first time. I only realized it later there was even gas emissions. I found it THAT hard to tell in the Rainbow colored chaos.

I don't enjoy one bit having to fight my ability to see the damn game AND enemies at the same time.

If parts of the level rotated environmental effects and we could get the defense target to FOLLOW us it would be one thing, but failing a mission because the AI just decides for the entire mission to sit in fire/gas/electricity for no reason other then "random"? It's not a shooter, it's Candy Crush Saga. "Oh I'm sorry, you failed? No problem, start the mission again, better luck with AI pathing next time".

We got REAL lucky on the last try because the target spent a decent number of waves underground in a dead end. We still ended up with three players on the last wave because I could not even figure out how to get to the player in time in that nightmarish dark lighting environment even after fiddling with settings.

 

 

 

[Faulcun]

11 minutes ago, DSpite said:

For the record, this particular level of "arbitrary difficulty" was a bit stupid.

First off, it's naturally extra dark in there, so I could barely see units against dark backgrounds. Add in a Nidus putting down plants, someone putting out a Shield Osprey Specter with lightning everywhere ... urgh. I burned up around 30-40 Energy Restores in the end just to spam Stomp because I had no other real options to tell what the hell was going on. Even when they were floating in the air they were hard to see. Without Radar I would still be half blind.

Our team restarted that mission 4(?) times (I found it nice that no one rage quitted actually, so we kept the team). The first time I actually typed "what killed us and the target?" and no one answered "gas" the first time. I only realized it later there was even gas emissions. I found it THAT hard to tell in the Rainbow colored chaos.

I don't enjoy one bit having to fight my ability to see the damn game AND enemies at the same time.

If parts of the level rotated environmental effects and we could get the defense target to FOLLOW us it would be one thing, but failing a mission because the AI just decides for the entire mission to sit in fire/gas/electricity for no reason other then "random"? It's not a shooter, it's Candy Crush Saga. "Oh I'm sorry, you failed? No problem, start the mission again, better luck with AI pathing next time".

We got REAL lucky on the last try because the target spent a decent number of waves underground in a dead end. We still ended up with three players on the last wave because I could not even figure out how to get to the player in time in that nightmarish dark lighting environment even after fiddling with settings.

 

 

 

I acknowledge you are having a tough time with it. Again, Im not going to be critical about your playstyle, but you've been around at least 6 months longer than I have. I can only assume that you have as many hours logged as I do. I am very curious about why you are having a difficult time with that mission other than your visibility. I would maybe suggest raising your gamma a little bit.

Aside from that, I can only say that my experience is much different on that mission. Sure, we followed the target through the gas tunnels a few times. But we finished it on the first try without any issues. Just another sortie day. No meta builds, no special loadouts. Obviously we're doing something different than you. Only thing im trying to point out is, not everybody has a hard time, and perhaps theres a way the people who DO have a hard time and the people who DONT, can meet somewhere in the middle before we suggest changes for the sake of making things easier.

More often than not, people just ask for changes rather than asking for help.