Fix stealth and Enemy AI

[Lumenblood]

At current stage, a full stealth playthrough is near impossible without invisibility. Warframes are supposed to be stealth like Ninjas, so some changes should be brought to fix them.

Since the next update is close, I think DE will consider these change:

1. Add Stealth kill from front and air, because u can't avoid detection once they start moving toward your location and u have no cover or invisibility.

2.Add Chained and Group Stealth kills, for clearing out crowds without detection (Yes, like Farcry)(No, this will not make Ash's Blade Storm useless, because it does way more damage, also against alarmed enemies)

3.Add Operator ability to pull frame into invisibility like Void Mode and teleport, but consuming much more Operator stamina. (As a panic button)

4.Add Operator ability to create noise or any small distractions nearby (like throwing rocks in Farcry) to divert enemy LoS (Ivara's noise arrow can also distract alarmed enemies, unlike this)

5.Reduce enemy LoS in alert mode,

6. Add a small duration for enemies to be alerted, to finish him off before being detected.

7.Add markers over alert enemies and an HUD (like MGSV, Farcry,) showing enemies around you who can (and have) shoot you.

I Know this isn't a tactical shooter, but that doesn't mean it can't be. Implementing some tactics instead of spamming and cheesing through everything can add a new breath to the game.

These suggestions are not perfect, so hope others suggest better options in reply. Hope DE notices this and adds them to the next update.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Lumenblood

[artemisfortune]

I mean these are okay ideas on paper but Warframe is not a stealth shooter. You're asking for a lot of work, a lot of mechanics, and a lot of changes to the AI just because you want a robust stealth system? I just don't think it works well in Warframe. What we have now is actually pretty good considering the type of game Warframe is.

Edited May 29, 2017 by JSharpie

[GLTHX]

9 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

I mean these are okay ideas on paper but Warframe is not a stealth shooter. You're asking for a lot of work, a lot of mechanics, and a lot of changes to the AI just because you want a robust stealth system? I just don't think it works well in Warframe. What we have now is actually pretty good considering the type of game Warframe is.

A lot of work, are you even serious? Aside from 2 the rest is either done by implementing or changing one or two variables or reusing existing mechanics. Hell, the first one actually requires removing one check from the code. It could be done in one afternoon by one person.

I don't want to sound hostile, but please refrain from commenting on things you don't have knowledge of. Game development isn't rocket science, as some people make it out to be, especially if you already have a working engine.

 

As for topic, I would personally add the possibility to perform a finisher on an alerted enemy, if he didn't notice us (happens all the time to be honest, not sure if intended or a bug).

[Nazrethim]

A few extra changes:

+Change enemy alarms to put enemies on 'Suspicious' status and rush to the alarming room, but not give the player's position in real time so a player can break LoS and wait for a chance to turn the alarms off.

+Make Rollers and Ospreys no longer spawn naturally. Instead being deployed by terrain or alerted crewmen when alerted or an alarm is activated

+Make enemy perception be affected by light sources, allowing players to hide in dark areas or be more visible in light areas.

+Make all light sources destroyable, so a player can put a room in darkness. Alarmed enemies could gain flashlights that point where their weapons do. Shattering lights could alert nearby enemies for a period of time and lure them by noise to it.

+Make certain security features like Grineer Magnetic Doors or even permanent Corpus Laser Grids deactivate when a friendly unit is nearby or passing trough it, or when a corpse is there.

+Allow players to hack security terminals when an alarm isn't activated to disable security features like Cameras, Sensors and even security terminals so enemies can't activate them. Could be a temporary security window.

+Add a mod for Throwing Knives (Kunai, Despair, Hikou, Spira) to create noise when missed, so a player can throw them to distract.

+Make Stealth Finisher attacks destroy bodies without requiring channeling. Alternatively, add a mod that does just that.

Also, add Stealth oriented missions:

+Triggering level alarms causes a Mission Fail.

+Add very powerful enemies that can bring down a Warframe easily in direct combat and even be resitant or inmune to powers, but are very vulnerable to Stealth Finisher attacks.

+Add enemies that can see trough invisibility and even dispel it.

+Add alternate paths to tilesets like vents with no enemy pathing on them (so they don0t wander in). Alternatively make those paths only active for alerted enemies.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Nazrethim

[artemisfortune]

17 minutes ago, GLTHX said:

A lot of work, are you even serious? Aside from 2 the rest is either done by implementing or changing one or two variables or reusing existing mechanics. Hell, the first one actually requires removing one check from the code. It could be done in one afternoon by one person.

I don't want to sound hostile, but please refrain from commenting on things you don't have knowledge of. Game development isn't rocket science, as some people make it out to be, especially if you already have a working engine.

 

As for topic, I would personally add the possibility to perform a finisher on an alerted enemy, if he didn't notice us (happens all the time to be honest, not sure if intended or a bug).

https://github.com/JSharpie/experience/tree/master/app/game

it's my only thing I've ever put online, but I do know what I'm talking about.

We're talking about serious alterations to how the game is played. His suggested changes turn the game from a horde shooter into a tactical shooter. Plus, the stealth mechanics are already ridiculously overpowered, these changes make it even more so.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that no, it isn't rocket science, but what's more important is time vs reward. If they spend the time developing these changes, what gets put on the backburner? If these are considered, how quickly do they come out and what is rushed/delayed to make it happen? Are these changes worth it? Do they fit the game?

Edited May 29, 2017 by JSharpie

[ScorpDK]

A tiny list of ideas (in addition to what was listed above)

1 - A potential improvement/change I would like to see, is giving enemies actual reaction time. Right now, the very instant you kill an enemy, any enemy within earshot will instantly flick around to look at it and switch to alert mode. Since they're not alert, it should take them a moment to "take in" what they heard and turn around at a speed appropriate to their class. Once they see what happened, they THEN switch mode and their FoV starts to grow gradually.
This could be balanced depending on enemy level, maybe even add a mod (Elusive?) that makes you and your actions harder to notice.

Bonus Points: If they can't see anything suspicious, and it didn't sound threatening enough, they don't run into cover, and return to normal mode much faster.

2 - Next - a Stealth Multiplier grace period timer, which stops alerted/suspicious enemies from breaking the multiplier for 1-2 seconds after switching status. This would help with the following:
- Accidentally bumping into an enemy as the action prompt to stealth kill fails to show up immediately (due to height difference, lag, etc)
- Killing several enemies with a punch-through attack. Right now, there's a % chance that you will break the multiplier as one of the guys will be alerted by the others dying, even if they themselves die the very same moment.
- Executing two enemies next to each other with normal melee attacks (slide, etc) - helpful for those enemies that DE still hasn't given a finisher animation for (Animals, rollers, fliers, etc)

3 - Also... a  primary/secondary set of mods that dissolves corpses on kill (maybe adding bonus damage to unaware foes?). Both for stealth and potentially cleanup.

Edited May 29, 2017 by ScorpDK

[PrVonTuckIII]

1 hour ago, Lumenblood said:

1. Add Stealth kill from front and air, because u can't avoid detection once they start moving toward your location and u have no cover or invisibility.

Agreed. More options when killing are certainly good, at least in concept.

1 hour ago, Lumenblood said:

2.Add Chained and Group Stealth kills, for clearing out crowds without detection (Yes, like Farcry)(No, this will not make Ash's Blade Storm useless, because it does way more damage, also against alarmed enemies)

 This is kinda against the point of stealth, though. Stealth is made for quietly taking out single, lone targets, not murder-wiping entire groups. 

1 hour ago, Lumenblood said:

3.Add Operator ability to pull frame into invisibility like Void Mode and teleport, but consuming much more Operator stamina. (As a panic button)

Redundant, because if you're going to go play with your Operator, you've probably gone to the effort of hiding your frame where no one will see it. Not only that, but Operator energy is already abysmally low, as it is. 

1 hour ago, Lumenblood said:

4.Add Operator ability to create noise or any distractions nearby to divert enemy LoS (Ivara's noise arrow can also distract alarmed enemies, unlike this)

As I said above: Redundant if you take the proper countermeasures.

1 hour ago, Lumenblood said:

5.Reduce enemy LoS in alert mode,

Realistically, it doesn't make sense. If someone is alerted, they're going to be looking for you, and thus it will be tougher for you to hide.

1 hour ago, Lumenblood said:

6. Add a small duration and HUD for enemies to notice you, and go into alarmed state,

But why would they? The delay, as it is now, is perfectly realistic. If you see your sworn enemy in front of you, you're most likely going to shoot them, rather than take a few seconds to think it over.

[Lumenblood]

9 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Agreed. More options when killing are certainly good, at least in concept.

 This is kinda against the point of stealth, though. Stealth is made for quietly taking out single, lone targets, not murder-wiping entire groups. 

Redundant, because if you're going to go play with your Operator, you've probably gone to the effort of hiding your frame where no one will see it. Not only that, but Operator energy is already abysmally low, as it is. 

As I said above: Redundant if you take the proper countermeasures.

Realistically, it doesn't make sense. If someone is alerted, they're going to be looking for you, and thus it will be tougher for you to hide.

But why would they? The delay, as it is now, is perfectly realistic. If you see your sworn enemy in front of you, you're most likely going to shoot them, rather than take a few seconds to think it over.

2. As everyone knows, you have to fight hordes of enemies, especially closely packed together. Killing one by one WILL become very cumbersome, making stealth usable against single targets only, which is very rare in this game.

3. With this, I meant using Operator abilities WHILE using the frame.Since Operator doesn't have much energy for himself/herself, This teleport and vanish will only be used in Emergency, like when a difficult-to-kill mob is moving toward you, and you don't have any more cover left to hide behind. Frames like  Ash and Loki will have less problems, as their invisibility and teleport will be much more reliable than the operator's.

4. When enemies are looking for you and you don't have the ability or energy to go invisible, using this (just like pebbles in Farcry) properly can save you from detection (and possibly death on higher lvl areas). 

5.Are you seriously looking for realism in this game? The LoS needs be reduced a bit, so that they don't spot you from 100 metres away.

6.In that case, there should be a teensy-weensy duration before enemy is alerted (like a couple of seconds), which will not reset (like Splinter Cell) for the rest duration. As for the HUD, it will increase situational awareness and let you know who to hide from.

[PrVonTuckIII]

1 minute ago, Lumenblood said:

2. As everyone knows, you have to fight hordes of enemies, especially closely packed together. Killing one by one WILL become very cumbersome, making stealth usable against single targets only, which is very rare in this game.

If you're facing a large group of enemies, then you should be using something other than melee finishers to kill them.

3 minutes ago, Lumenblood said:

3. With this, I meant using Operator abilities WHILE using the frame.Since Operator doesn't have much energy for himself/herself, This teleport and vanish will only be used in Emergency, like when a difficult-to-kill mob is moving toward you, and you don't have any more cover left to hide behind. Frames like  Ash and Loki will have less problems, as their invisibility and teleport will be much more reliable than the operator's.

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to understand what you mean? Do you want frames to be able to use Operator abilities? 

4 minutes ago, Lumenblood said:

4. When enemies are looking for you and you don't have the ability or energy to go invisible, using this (just like pebbles in Farcry) properly can save you from detection (and possibly death on higher lvl areas). 

Unless you're giving yourself a purposeful challenge, why would you realistically be playing as an Operator at high levels? Not only that, but why would you redirect enemies to yourself, an Operator?

5 minutes ago, Lumenblood said:

5.Are you seriously looking for realism in this game? The LoS needs be reduced a bit, so that they don't spot you from 100 metres away.

LoS in the game at the moment caps at about 40m, IIRC. That's perfectly realistic, and perfectly doable for stealth.

6 minutes ago, Lumenblood said:

6.In that case, there should be a teensy-weensy duration before enemy is alerted (like a couple of seconds), which will not reset (like Splinter Cell) for the rest duration. As for the HUD, it will increase situational awareness and let you know who to hide from.

Mmmm.... IMO, the current, half-second delay is enough. It's enough time for me to shoot someone in the face before they alert everyone else. 

[Lumenblood]

2 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

If you're facing a large group of enemies, then you should be using something other than melee finishers to kill them.

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to understand what you mean? Do you want frames to be able to use Operator abilities? 

Unless you're giving yourself a purposeful challenge, why would you realistically be playing as an Operator at high levels? Not only that, but why would you redirect enemies to yourself, an Operator?

LoS in the game at the moment caps at about 40m, IIRC. That's perfectly realistic, and perfectly doable for stealth.

Mmmm.... IMO, the current, half-second delay is enough. It's enough time for me to shoot someone in the face before they alert everyone else. 

1. Well, you've got a point. I was thinking about using group and chain kills when guns are not enough to clear a crowd.

2.For this, I meant using Operator abilities while INSIDE warframes, which will consume more stamina than in free form of operator. (Yes, this will require a lot of work for being implemented, especially on consoles)

3.Not to redirect enemies towards, but AWAY from operator (while using the frame, like stated above), just like using rocks in Farcry or Empty mags in MGSV. (It's not a stealth game, but it can be one)

4.You're right on this one, thanks for showing the flaw.

5.Just increasing it to a couple of seconds can be very helpful for many of the players . Also, a HUD on the enemy's head means it will be easier to find out which enemy to shoot.

[PrVonTuckIII]

30 minutes ago, Lumenblood said:

2.For this, I meant using Operator abilities while INSIDE warframes, which will consume more stamina than in free form of operator. (Yes, this will require a lot of work for being implemented, especially on consoles)

Seems unnecessary, but I have no strong opinions either way, so eh. Personally, I find it easier just to kill the offender before they alert the rest of them.

[DSpite]

19 hours ago, Lumenblood said:

At current stage, a full stealth playthrough is near impossible without invisibility. Warframes are supposed to be stealth like Ninjas, so some changes should be brought to fix them.

Since the next update is close, I think DE will consider these change:

1. Add Stealth kill from front and air, because u can't avoid detection once they start moving toward your location and u have no cover or invisibility.

2.Add Chained and Group Stealth kills, for clearing out crowds without detection (Yes, like Farcry)(No, this will not make Ash's Blade Storm useless, because it does way more damage, also against alarmed enemies)

3.Add Operator ability to pull frame into invisibility like Void Mode and teleport, but consuming much more Operator stamina. (As a panic button)

4.Add Operator ability to create noise or any small distractions nearby (like throwing rocks in Farcry) to divert enemy LoS (Ivara's noise arrow can also distract alarmed enemies, unlike this)

5.Reduce enemy LoS in alert mode,

6. Add a small duration for enemies to be alerted, to finish him off before being detected.

7.Add markers over alert enemies and an HUD (like MGSV, Farcry,) showing enemies around you who can (and have) shoot you.

I Know this isn't a tactical shooter, but that doesn't mean it can't be. Implementing some tactics instead of spamming and cheesing through everything can add a new breath to the game.

These suggestions are not perfect, so hope others suggest better options in reply. Hope DE notices this and adds them to the next update.

 

Demanding changes is just saying "please do it because I want an easy affinity farm".

If you are doing an Extermination run, "pure stealth" is pointless, and Rescue can be Stealth till you free the hostage, then good luck keeping him undetected. We can eliminate Defense/Survival/etc, so that leaves "full Stealth Spy missions" as the only realistic situation you would even bother try it.

DE is not going to roll back changes just so players can get back their massive affinity bonuses each mission. We are not playing Thief, we are playing an action shooter.

[Lumenblood]

17 hours ago, DSpite said:

Demanding changes is just saying "please do it because I want an easy affinity farm".

If you are doing an Extermination run, "pure stealth" is pointless, and Rescue can be Stealth till you free the hostage, then good luck keeping him undetected. We can eliminate Defense/Survival/etc, so that leaves "full Stealth Spy missions" as the only realistic situation you would even bother try it.

DE is not going to roll back changes just so players can get back their massive affinity bonuses each mission. We are not playing Thief, we are playing an action shooter.

I didn't mention any rollback. And why would a pure stealth run in Exterminate be pointless?

This is not Thief, i know, but currently affinity farm only means going to the most popular Defense mission with a squad, and shoot enemies again and again until u get bored of the area, and repeat. A solo run on higher lvls becomes impossible without a squad, and the only plausible way of doing one is stealth. 

Also, if one gets the ability to use Void Steps and Void mode while using the frame, it will give all the squishy frames (which is basically all of them) a brief respite from enemy fire to recharge shield. the HUD marker will make stealth run much more easier and reliable. If this action shooter has a mechanic for stealth approach, why not make it a viable way of completing mission.

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 30/05/2017 at 11:57 AM, DSpite said:

Demanding changes is just saying "please do it because I want an easy affinity farm".

Wait. What?

Being afk during some defense mission is far easier than using stealth. Even if stealth was more efficient than afk defense, people would use invisibility and not the gameplay proposed by the OP. i can't understand what you're afraid of.

 

[unknow99]

On 29/05/2017 at 5:17 PM, Nazrethim said:

A few extra changes:

+Change enemy alarms to put enemies on 'Suspicious' status and rush to the alarming room, but not give the player's position in real time so a player can break LoS and wait for a chance to turn the alarms off.

+Make Rollers and Ospreys no longer spawn naturally. Instead being deployed by terrain or alerted crewmen when alerted or an alarm is activated

+Make enemy perception be affected by light sources, allowing players to hide in dark areas or be more visible in light areas.

+Make all light sources destroyable, so a player can put a room in darkness. Alarmed enemies could gain flashlights that point where their weapons do. Shattering lights could alert nearby enemies for a period of time and lure them by noise to it.

+Make certain security features like Grineer Magnetic Doors or even permanent Corpus Laser Grids deactivate when a friendly unit is nearby or passing trough it, or when a corpse is there.

+Allow players to hack security terminals when an alarm isn't activated to disable security features like Cameras, Sensors and even security terminals so enemies can't activate them. Could be a temporary security window.

+Add a mod for Throwing Knives (Kunai, Despair, Hikou, Spira) to create noise when missed, so a player can throw them to distract.

+Make Stealth Finisher attacks destroy bodies without requiring channeling. Alternatively, add a mod that does just that.

Also, add Stealth oriented missions:

+Triggering level alarms causes a Mission Fail.

+Add very powerful enemies that can bring down a Warframe easily in direct combat and even be resitant or inmune to powers, but are very vulnerable to Stealth Finisher attacks.

+Add enemies that can see trough invisibility and even dispel it.

+Add alternate paths to tilesets like vents with no enemy pathing on them (so they don0t wander in). Alternatively make those paths only active for alerted enemies.

I love you. There's tons of nice ideas here!